bright red on tillapia's lower jaw

[urbanfarmer]

you need to test am and nitrites... high levels of either can be lethal
salt may help but it depends on what's wrong - if you do add salt, read up on it first! don't use table salt - caking agents can kill the fish

Some times I want to smack my palm against my face as hard as I can to numb the pain... ANYWAY, where in the world did you hear that? Do you have any proof? RESEARCH? ALL anticaking agents used in table salt for human consumption are safe to eat... MOREOVER, the most common anticaking agent is a FERTILIZER (in this case I am talking about Calcium silicate CaSiO3). Come on guys, at least check your advice before you scare the newbies into believing the retro hippy dogma FOLKLORE... I google searched that in under 10 second flat... seriously!!!

Step 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticaking_agent
Step 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_silicate
Step 3: Google search "Calcium silicate fertilizer"
Step 4: My eyes pass over link #2 that has organic fertilizer in the title, and I go straight for link #10...
Step 5: http://www.fertilizers.com.sg/calcium-silicate
Step 6: COPY/PASTE and REFERENCE

Calcium silicate can be very useful, especially when plants are under abiotic or biotic stress. Silicon may enhance soil fertility, improve disease and pest resistance, increase photosynthesis, improve plant architecture, regulate evapotranspiration, increase tolerance to toxic elements such as Fe and Mn. Soils found in warm to hot, humid areas, are subject to intense silicon leaching and tend to be highly desilicified, acidic, low in. essential nutrient elements, and on account of their acidity, high in soluble aluminum. Supplmenting soils of such with calcium silicate is an essential to promote plants mechanical and physiological growth and well-being.

At least feel honor bound to check your information at the door... COME ON GUYS!!!


CONCLUSION: THE USE OF TABLE SALT IN AN AQUAPONIC SYSTEM IS OKAY

[WAbedroomponics]

But will adding salt to my system hurt my plants ? Because I know that I kill weeds in my yard by salting the area so would the same thing happen

[urbanfarmer]

But will adding salt to my system hurt my plants ? Because I know that I kill weeds in my yard by salting the area so would the same thing happen

Well, if you add too much. The amount of Chloride required to protect from Nitrite toxicity is very small compared to how much is required to kill your plants (generally). But, I did not mean to imply that you should add table salt, merely that table salt in and of itself is not poisonous due to any anticaking agents... If you have a problem with Nitrite toxicity (and I'm not so sure you do) you need to add Chloride, I would recommend anything BUT salt because of the potential problems YOU can have. The amount of Chloride required is 1.5:1 where it's chloride:nitrite in the ratio (El-Sayed, 2006). Calcium Chloride would be a better option because it will act as a fertilizer and often calcium is in short supply for your plants!

FUN FACTS
Plants will actually consume the sodium (Na) instead of potassium (K), but that's a whole 'nother story...

Potassium deficiency can be greatly alleviated in the presence of sodium but the resulting sodium-rich plants are much more succulent than a high potassium plant. In some plants over 90% of the required potassium can be replaced with sodium without any reduction in growth.

http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=t&id=289 (way at the bottom)

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SODIUM REPLACING POTASSIUM:
Chapter 4, page 62

ANYWAY, you get the idea. I'm not so sure your fish have brown blood disease (nitrite poisoning)... if you are truly concerned that might be the case, take one of the weakest fish and cut it in half. If it has really brown blood, then okay that is most likely the case.

REFERENCE (I just linked the other ones cause I'm too dang lazy right now...)

El-Sayed, A. F. M. (2006). Tilapia culture. Cambridge, MA: CABI Publishing.

[keith_r]

wow.. you really are close minded.. you found what info you wanted to find..
there are several anti caking agents that can be used for salt.. Sodium ferrocyanide (as an example) will break down in sunlight to cyanide.. certainly harmful to fish.. many contain copper, that can be bad for plants.. some may be ok.. but again, why take the chance? use pure salt and avoid the risk, that's not trying to scare anyone, it's presenting facts...
good luck with your garden uf
fertilizers in the garden are a great thing.. but when there are fish in the mix (you seem to ignore that fact in many of your discussions) the equations change..
oh, and i'm not a "hippy", but name calling always helps an me win an argument too!

[urbanfarmer]

wow.. you really are close minded.. you found what info you wanted to find..

That's hypocritical though... because you haven't stated anything about sodium ferrocyanide... you basically just want me to assume it's bad for you and me and the fish just because YOU SAY SO? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. What makes you the authority on anything and everything? Post some references for God's sake. Moreover, I do not just find information to suit my needs... If I was hasteful in my research, it was because I felt that my minimal research outweighed your nonexistent research! Anyway, it is mind boggling you would say that after all my thorough posts... perhaps you can find a reason to why you said that within yourself! You can question my research or my information in any way you like, but don't question my character irrespective to how I conduct myself as evident on this forum.

there are several anti caking agents that can be used for salt.. Sodium ferrocyanide (as an example) will break down in sunlight to cyanide.. certainly harmful to fish.. many contain copper, that can be bad for plants.. some may be ok.. but again, why take the chance? use pure salt and avoid the risk, that's not trying to scare anyone, it's presenting facts...
good luck with your garden uf
fertilizers in the garden are a great thing.. but when there are fish in the mix (you seem to ignore that fact in many of your discussions) the equations change..
oh, and i'm not a "hippy", but name calling always helps an me win an argument too!

You keep posting information as if they are words that poured out of God's mouth!!! OKAY?!? So, I was a bit upset when I posted that, and in retrospect I feel I went a bit too far calling you a hippy. SO SORRY! I will replace it with FOLKLORE.

I admit I don't know as much on the aquacultural side as I do on the botanical side of things (I just ordered books from the library, most of which are to remedy this exact problem, LOL)... however, I try to state SPECIFIC information or research that discusses EXACT CONCENTRATIONS OF TOXICITY LEVELS whereas you do not even attempt to provide ANY information... I realize that a lot of times you are presenting "commonly accepted" information from the aquaponics community or in some cases it may seem I am wrong because you may have a limit to your own knowledge (especially since a bulk of it may be anecdotal), but that is one of the reasons I speak up... I'm not asking you to BELIEVE me, I am asking you to sort through the VAST AMOUNTS OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION out there and see FOR YOURSELF.

How many books, research papers, dissertations, articles have you read in the pursuit of more knowledge in aquaponics? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? I have. I am dedicating my career to aquaponics (well aquaponics is integrally tied to my real goal which is saving lives). I am going back to school for a Masters in Environmental Science, WATER AND SOIL, with an emphasis on sustainability. After that it's either med school or pharmaceutical school (I still have time to make a final decision, partially determined by my MCAT/PCAT scores). I think you see where I am going with this...

I have a lot of love for this community, and I consider it my home. There are many aquaponic communities out there, but since this is mine I have as much pride in it as I do myself. I don't care what all the other folklore based communities have to say, I want everyone here to have the Truth about aquaponics. If you don't want to hold hands down this bumpy road, then so be it.

BACK TO THE SALT...

First, I just want to reiterate that my last post showed the most commonly used anticaking agent is in fact a simple and safe fertilizer.

I'm not sure on the accuracy of this website, but it shows foods associated with additives, and it shows that additive is not even used today. http://www.additivesinfood.info/

This paper explains the additive in detail. As someone that understands something about chemistry, I can only say that cyanide and this chemical are unbelievably different. Why anyone would assume they would behave the same in metabolic pathways in either fish, humans, or plants without a shred of evidence is beyond me... the paper below implies this as well.
on the safety of Sodium ferrocyanide user as anticaking agents (European Commission)

Human Health Effects & Human Toxicity Excerpts (MORE OF MY MUMBO JUMBO SCIENCEY STUFF):
SEVERAL GRAMS HAVE BEEN SWALLOWED REPEATEDLY BY WOULD-BE SUICIDES WITHOUT APPARENT ILL-EFFECT.
[The Merck Index: An Encyclopedia of Chemicals and Drugs 8th ed. Rahway, New Jersey: Merck and Co., Inc., 1968., p. 958] **PEER REVIEWED**

BECAUSE OF STRONG CHEMICAL BONDAGE BETWEEEN THE CYANIDE GROUP & THE IRON, FERROCYANIDES HAVE A LOW ORDER OF TOXICITY. LOW=CAUSES READILY REVERSIBLE TISSUE CHANGES WHICH DISAPPEAR AFTER EXPOSURE STOPS. CAUSES SOME DISCOMFORT.
[The Merck Index. 9th ed. Rahway, New Jersey: Merck & Co., Inc., 1976., p. 1114] **PEER REVIEWED**

SUMMARY TOXICITY STATEMENT; ACUTE... FERROCYANIDES AS SUCH ARE OF LOW ORDER OF TOXICITY. LOW=CAUSES READILY REVERSIBLE TISSUE CHANGES WHICH DISAPPEAR AFTER EXPOSURE STOPS. CAUSES SOME DISCOMFORT.
[Sax, N.I. Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials. 5th ed. New York: Van Nostrand Rheinhold, 1979., p. 367] **PEER REVIEWED**

Reported Fatal Dose:
3(?). 3= MODERATELY TOXIC: PROBABLE ORAL LETHAL DOSE (HUMAN) 0.5-5 G/KG; BETWEEN 1 OZ & 1 PINT (OR LB) FOR 70 KG PERSON (150 LB). NO ADEQUATE TOXICITY DATA WERE LOCATED, BUT APPARENTLY THE SODIUM & POTASSIUM SALTS ARE COMPARATIVELY BENIGN. THEY ARE NOT DECOMP'ED TO CYANIDE.
[Gosselin, R.E., H.C. Hodge, R.P. Smith, and M.N. Gleason. Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products. 4th ed. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1976., p. II-97] **PEER REVIEWED**

ADDRESSING THE STIGMA (feelings of fear not based in reason or science):
Lastly, I want to point out that cyanide is made of 1 carbon atom and 1 nitrogen atom. Again, the chemical combination is entirely relevant, but these are 2 chemical elements we find in vast quantities in our systems already. Is the fear from the word CYANIDE? Please, if you have ANY information to share, SHARE IT. If I am wrong, SO BE IT. I want the Truth, but if you can't support your claims it's nothing more than FOLKLORE. GET THAT CRAP OUT OF HERE.

I like you very much, and I wish you to continue posting in any manner you choose. Just please don't spread the folklore to our NEW members. It's twice as much work to re-teach them later, and you know someone will have the pleasure of that discomfort. Regardless, you CHALLENGE ME TO LEARN, and for that, I like you very very much. (sincerely)

[urbanfarmer]

P.S. Sorry you to derail your topic a bit WAbedroomponics... I still don't think you should treat with table salt as we have not diagnostically determined a nitrite toxicity which would cause brown blood disease. That is what the salt would be for, and we just aren't there yet. As I mentioned before, you CAN cut one open and check it's blood. If it's brown, then that's definitely a high possibility. How are the fish looking?

[keith_r]

look.. i'm not trying to get in a pi$$ing match with you, so i won't..
my point is basically the same as yours.. before you do anything to "help" your system, look for info.. there's so much out there it can be confusing..
finding it on your own can be empowering

maybe i am a hippy?

actually.. i grew up in the 70's.. we "lost the values but kept the weed"...

[urbanfarmer]

Well, sir... that is my point... so... OKAY!

I actually DO like it when you challenge me to research something, but sometimes I wish you would take your own advice!!!

Hey, I seriously meant nothing by the hippy comment, and I sincerely wish they would legalize it... that's a different story for a different forum!!!

[cedarswamp]

Anti caking agents are for the most part insoluble (that's why they are anti caking ), and tend to cloud the water if left to accumulate.

I'll pass, I like purty water.

[urbanfarmer]

It wouldn't add to the turbidity. Well, I can't speak for every anti-caking agent out there without looking at it, but the most common Calcium silicate has a molar weight of 116 grams, which if insoluble would sink in water not stay suspended. AND, you are adding such a tiny amount of Calcium silicate (in this example) that you would get far more turbidity from a handful of dirt (seriously). Just sayin...

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923273

P.S. I still don't think salt should be added here; so, I guess it's a moot point