Peas and Nitrites

[jrlevers]

I was thinking of starting off a lot lower. Perhaps a 1/2 oz per gallon. That way I can always add more if needed and have some wiggle room. Not say that your dosing is too high, I just want to play it safe. I've invested a lot of time into these damn fish.

And again I can't tell you how much I appreciate the info. I've been wracking my brain about this for a week now and I never came across dosing salt in my internet searches!

[foodchain]

I have NEVER dosed that high....but that info is what the math calculates out to. And that is what I have read in several places.
Like I said earlier, research brown blood disease, as this is what you have.

[jrlevers]

WOW. That's all I can say.

I decided to go with the 1/2 oz per gallon (Ironically I only had enough to do that dose anyhow) which worked out to 70 oz for my 140 Gal. I put it in slowly and that fish INSTANTLY looked less stressed. They stopped gulping entirely. I'm sold.

Thanks so much again for your help. You helped save the souls of 60 tilapia. You're like a fishy Jesus. LOL.

[jrlevers]

Final question. Do I do a water change after putting the salt in? Or can I leave the saltwater in the tank?

[urbanfarmer]

Ok. I attempted the math and quite frankly I don't think I understand it enough to feel comfortable using any numbers I came up with. In fact, I'm probably just plain wrong. So...

I'm assuming a Chloride of 0 and my tank volume is approximately 140 Gal. Can anyone help with producing a number of oz of salt to use?

Sorry, I got to run back to work, this post is as far as I got, but here are the calculations:

140 Gallons x (3.78 L / 1 Gallon) = 529.2 L

5 ppm nitrite x (6 ppm Cl- / 1 ppm nitrite) = 30 ppm Cl-

ppm = mg / L

(30 mg / L chloride) x 529 L = 15876 mg Chloride = 15.9 grams Chloride

(15.9 g Cl)/(35.45 g Cl / mol Cl) = 0.45 mol Cl

(0.45 mol Cl) x (1 mol NaCl / 1 mol Cl) x (58.44 g / 1 mol NaCl) = 26.3 g NaCl

26.3 grams = 0.93 ounces

ADD ABOUT 1 OUNCE OF SALT FOR THE WHOLE 140 GALLONS

[urbanfarmer]

Final question. Do I do a water change after putting the salt in? Or can I leave the saltwater in the tank?

1/2 ounce per gallon will give you a Na+ concentration of 1475 ppm Na+ and your total TDS from JUST the salt will be almost 4000 ppm. I'm pretty sure that's way too high for the plants, but you can try it.

Tilapia can handle highly saline solutions, but had your fish been anything else they likely would have died. LUCKY!

[urbanfarmer]

Before I continue I must comment... Your avatar is awesome!

Does anyone know if growing peas and other nitrogen fixing plants such as beans affect nitrite levels? My system is two months old and I'm having issues with unreadable nitrite levels. Last test: Ammonia 0, Nitrite > 5, Nitrate 160. Temp 82 and pH 7.8.

My tilapia are starting to suffer and no matter how many water changes I do I can't seem to get my Nitrites down. I have peas, beans, yellow peppers and lettuce growing (14 plants) and duckweed.

I have recently increased the amount of feed they're getting because they're approaching 4 inches.

Any advice?

The nitrite is coming from either the ammonia or the nitrate. Typically, it flows from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but in anaerobic conditions it may flow from nitrate back to nitrite. Any spots that accumulate a lot of organic matter with little water movement could be breeding grounds for some anaerobic bacteria.

Otherwise, the legumes (beans and peas and such) are not your source of nitrite. Nitrogen fixation from these plants/bacteria yield ammonia.

N2 + 8 H+ + 8 e? ? 2 NH3 + H2

[foodchain]

I am confused on your salt ratio recomendations, and on the tilapia not being able to tolerate anything higher. My tilapia, now in for the winter are in considerably higher concentrations with apparantly no ill effects. Also both the Univ. of HI, and the UVI are currently conducting studies on, and breeding programs for tilapia in brackish and sea water. I am sure I the PDF on that around here if you want it. I just have to find it.

[foodchain]

You have to remember smaller fish are far more sensitive than larger fish to water quality and changes.
Yes, the salt and increased DO is the cure for brown blood disease. Lowering your temp in theory would allow your water to hold more DO. Warmer the water the less it holds. It also slows down the metabolism of the fish, they will eat less, poop less. The salt does a lot of different things, all good ones for them. Not gonna get into all that. IF you intend to do 20-30% water changes, I wouldn't worry too much about salting again, unless meant as a preventative, but space these water changes out. The fish have to get used to the new concentrations every time. The idea is to dillute it back out, so the plants will like the water again. Salt will not evaporate, so as the water evaporates the water will slowly get saltier, you have a very very very low concentration. So not much of a concern but none the less a concept you need to understand if ever put in this position again. NO SUDDEN CHANGES. Which, if you are going to keep fish long term you will more than likely have this run in again at some point. But now you know how to fix it. The purpose of this was to buy your filter time to build up the bacteria. That's it. So, if you start doing small water changes, it will dillute out both the salt, and the nitrates and will ease the fish back into a more 'normal' for lack of better terms water. Salt in system is not a bad thing though, as long as plants can tolerate it. Some folks keep it in there all the time. I don't as my strawberries don't like it....at all. But my wintering over tanks get salted. Keep the aeration up, and the temp down and really light feedings...the more you feed, the more they mess, the higher the pollution in the system which you are trying to compensate for now. It's a cycle. A big circle called the nitrogen cycle, you have to allow the bacteria to build, and break down the pollutants that the fish, fish waste, and what not build up. Maybe overally simplified here. But that's the basics. Studies have proven though, and yes I can find the PDF on this too if anyone needs it, that prolonged exposure to brown blood disease has negative effects on fertility. So the faster you get it fixed, and the faster you understand the WHY's behind it the better off your goona be.
I only wish I was a fish Jesus. I know what I know, cuz I have killed thousands of fish in making mistakes, and in testing out the WHY's, How Come's, and What does this do? Ideas that I have had. There's lots of data available online, but it only goes as far as someone has documented. I am not a biologist, but I have volumes of marine biology and fisheries texts. Some is dated, and I don't know all the scientific processes and terms. But I have learned you learn far more by actually doing it, putting the hands on, and losing a few....than from the book. Remember too, just cus someone tells you something, or you read it online doesn't mean it's true or real. ALWAYS do more research, google, etc to verify. If you see the same answer in enough places then you start having a direction. I am not saying anything bad about anyone, or anything like that. Just saying it's your money, your fish....always verify. That's why I told you it was brown blood disease upfront, so that you could google the treatments for it. There's a lot of data out on this.

[urbanfarmer]

I am confused on your salt ratio recommendations, and on the tilapia not being able to tolerate anything higher. My tilapia, now in for the winter are in considerably higher concentrations with apparently no ill effects. Also both the Univ. of HI, and the UVI are currently conducting studies on, and breeding programs for tilapia in brackish and sea water. I am sure I the PDF on that around here if you want it. I just have to find it.

No no no, I said Tilapia CAN handle highly saline solutions. Some tilapia species can handle hypersaline solutions, in fact.

However, some fish don't have much of a tolerance for it. You see, the histology of a Tilapia gill reveals it has specialized cells to handle the chloride ions that enter their body due to osmoregulation. Their internal body chemistry also adapts to the saline conditions. Try that with say... goldfish (just a guess) and you won't see anywhere NEAR the salt tolerance.