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  1. #41
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    Quote Originally Posted by rfeiller
    Sorry if I did not intend to type fish, but plants remove nutrients what minerals are extracted by fish I am not certain to what degree. I am typing blindly on

    my phone and didn't see the mistyped word.
    OH, that makes sense! I was like whoa that's a silly statement, he can't be serious!

    I'm only half joking when I ask this, but did you mean to type nitrate or nitrite? That's what started this whole discussions, BY THE WAY.

    Now I am wondering what you originally meant... what is the implication of "water purification" or lack thereof by plants. Before you answer, we are talking about plants AND bacteria helping clean the water for the fish, right? If so, what is the problem or shortcomings of this process that you might... be implying???

    I think we need to start new threads on this. Maybe have someone move out discussion elsewhere like they did last time.

  2. #42
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver
    The nitrites (NO2) produced are also toxic to fish in relatively small quantities, just like the ammonia. So, the second bacteria comes into play to add some more oxygen to the nitrites converting them into nitrate (NO3). Note the spelling, nitrite (NO2), nitrate (NO3). Now, nitrates (NO3) are not very toxic to fish and generally, depending on the species of fish, they can tolerate 100 times more nitrates in the fish water than they can ammonia or nitrites. Remember, plants need and love (absorb) nitrates, so the nitrates won't stay or accumulate in the water to high levels unless there are fewer plants than needed to absorb (uptake) all the nitrates generated by the fish and bacteria processes in tandem.
    Oliver, there is no conclusive evidence that nitrate is toxic to fish whatsoever, and definitely not tilapia based on MY research.

    Your numbers are out of context. A dangerous level of unionized ammonia at a pH of 5 versus pH of 8 translates to a difference in TAN (Total Ammoniacal Nitrogen) of a factor of 1,000. If you had an ammonia/ammonium total reading of 1,000 mg/L (ppm) at pH 5, it would be equal in TOXICITY to an ammonia/ammonium total reading of 1 mg/L (ppm) at pH 8, both at the same 80 degrees Fahrenheit for example. Does that seem strange? Well, it's true.

    So, with that said, you can't just say fish can handle nitrate at 100x more quantity without being specific. A nitrate reading of 100,000 mg/L (ppm) is far different than 100 mg/L (ppm). But, more importantly nitrate is not toxic to fish or if it is, it has not been discovered and researched at any realistic concentration!

  3. #43
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    No it was nitrates not nitrites and to start this discussion was a good thing. With the commercial breeding of fish you have several objectives, three of which are growth rate, health of the animal and size it attains. In comparrisons that i did myself using hundreds of fish the results were always the same slowed growth rate, more prone to breaking down, and stunted growth. Always in proportion to level of nitrates.

  4. #44
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    Quote Originally Posted by rfeiller
    No it was nitrates not nitrites and to start this discussion was a good thing. With the commercial breeding of fish you have several objectives, three of which are growth rate, health of the animal and size it attains. In comparrisons that i did myself using hundreds of fish the results were always the same slowed growth rate, more prone to breaking down, and stunted growth. Always in proportion to level of nitrates.
    Disease, genetics, temperature, feed, light, tank mates, starting size, and SO MANY OTHER FACTORS could play a role. Without a well designed experiment to study the variables in question any evidence observed is little more than anecdotal, unfortunately.

    Hundreds if not thousands have come before you, in a scientific manner, and they have attempted to prove the claims you just made/implied. They have all failed. I don't think what you observed had a correlation with nitrates and there was definitely no causality involved. I suggest to you other factors were at play that either were not accounted for and/or could not be perceived.

  5. #45
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    Quote Originally Posted by urbanfarmer
    Quote Originally Posted by rfeiller
    No it was nitrates not nitrites and to start this discussion was a good thing. With the commercial breeding of fish you have several objectives, three of which are growth rate, health of the animal and size it attains. In comparrisons that i did myself using hundreds of fish the results were always the same slowed growth rate, more prone to breaking down, and stunted growth. Always in proportion to level of nitrates.
    Disease, genetics, temperature, feed, light, tank mates, starting size, and SO MANY OTHER FACTORS could play a role. Without a well designed experiment to study the variables in question any evidence observed is little more than anecdotal, unfortunately.

    Hundreds if not thousands have come before you, in a scientific manner, and they have attempted to prove the claims you just made/implied. They have all failed. I don't think what you observed had a correlation with nitrates and there was definitely no causality involved. I suggest to you other factors were at play that either were not accounted for and/or could not be perceived.
    First I have to agree with rfeiller, as I've observed the same. Can I prove it scientifically? No but I've observed in my own tanks that fish are healthier in general when water is changed often enough to keep nitrates below 40 ppm. Isn't the object to mimic a natural ecosystem as closly as possible? Elevated levels of nitrates in nature reak all kinds of havoc on the ecosystem, so why wouldn't we strive to keep them lower in our systems?


    Alright just for you some actual science.
    http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/realfiles/m...8056/8056.html

  6. #46
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    If I am not disputing what you have read you doing exactly what a researcher does. All I do is relate my experiences. Take it with a grain of salt, but if you follow my information pertaining to fish you will be ahead. How's that for arrogance!!

    If I were doing a study on possible toxic substances I would use the more sensitive animals to toxins for quantitative & qualitative studies.

  7. #47
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    Quote Originally Posted by rfeiller
    If I am not disputing what you have read you doing exactly what a researcher does. All I do is relate my experiences. Take it with a grain of salt, but if you follow my information pertaining to fish you will be ahead. How's that for arrogance!!

    If I were doing a study on possible toxic substances I would use the more sensitive animals to toxins for quantitative & qualitative studies.
    Well, all I have to say is I hope you're not CHARGING anyone for that information!

    Sure, you can use different creatures, but what if I want my research to be relevant to something very specific. For instance, what if it's costly to remove nitrates from the system given government restrictions and actually material/labor costs? What if the reduction in growth rate is too small to justify the added cost to remove the nitrates or maybe increasing/decreasing the frequency of nitrate removal? Often times, scientific research is employed in commercial situations to enhance profitability or prevent damage to the environment or people. There are no hard fast rules on how to do it except of course following the scientific method, and even that isn't ironclad.

  8. #48
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    Hell no, didn't cost you a cent; cost me thousands!

    You've just brought up some interesting issues.

  9. #49
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    it's like arguing with a republican!

    if my system nitrAtes get high, i'm going to try to identify the problem.. if they were up over 400 i'd be doing partial water changes and adding more plants..

    i've been trying to say that you'll find contradictory documentation and studies on just about any subject, but actual experience and observation by these "folklorists" you keep bringing up is where much knowledge started

  10. #50
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    Re: Aquaponics 101-Part One: The Process

    As I said UF is doing what a researcher does and he does it well.
    I rely on my histories successes and failures to guide me and I share those. I'm sure there are those that totally disagree with me. I look to see the fruits of their endeavors and judge them by that.
    As a marine Bio major ( didn't t finish,) you wouldn't believe the crap science had to offer and so much of hard science has been modified or rejected altogether. Do I ignore science of courses not, but I don't blindly accept it either.

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