System Stuck....need to know why?

[jvision]

I wouldn't worry about what order your barrels fill and drain in... I gave up on my system. Even with fiddling every day for a week, I couldn't get my system to be consistent. Some of my GBs fill in 8 minutes, some in 15... I just try to adjust what grows in each bed - stuff that doesn't like being wet goes in the beds that take longer to fill.
If you can figure out how to post pics of your system, it might help.

[foodchain]

Look, I don't care so much what order...so long as they cycle properly. Photo bucket isn't working. This new version of this site is killing me too.
It's starting to look like the drains aren't big enough.

[JCO]

As for the filling rate, you can control that with the separate shutoffs on each outlet.

Now as to your siphons, if I am seeing them correctly, they seem to be a "T" elbowed toward the bottom of the tank with two open ends at the bottom. Too much open end causes loss of suction too quick. Do away with the "T" and make it an inverted "U" with the open end of the drain a distance from the bottom of the tank of about 1/2 inch, no more.

This new version of this site is killing me too.

Sorry about what the new owner has done. I had purchased this software a number of years ago thinking I would update but decided against it as it didn't seem to have the personal community feel to it as the what I had been using since day one. Sorry.

Hope my suggestion helped.

JCO

[foodchain]

JCO: Currently the drain is a capital M with the drain coming out the middle leg of the M and the two longer legs nearly touching the bottom. It's not possible to make it a U and connect to the discharge line. In the pictures you should be able to see that each barrel has it's own ball valve. I have kicked this around in my head all day.
***update***Okay JCO, I reread what you wrote and this makes better sense now. I will build ONE barrel your way, and see if it works. Then copy to the rest if it does. Too expense to build them all without testing...LOL.

And there's only two ways to fix this if I am right. 1) reduce the valves down to reduce flow to barrels. Each one will have to be adjusted manually and will be different. This will prolong the cycle of each barrel to nearly 15-20 minutes or more per barrel.

Or 2) Enlarge the discharge lines to 1" and a 3" graded line to carry to sump. This is going to SUCK as I just bought all the damn PVC and lines which was over $100 in 3/4" and 2". I don't even want to know what it will cost in 1" and 3" and fittings.

IF I am right, with either of the above solutions I will let you all know.

IF the cycle times end up being further apart, than I just have to adjust what I grow I guess.

[foodchain]

Okay. So I just got another piece of information that is pretty important. The flood cycle is supposed to be 1:3 ratio to the drain cycle.

IF that rule of thumb is accurate, then simply reducing each of the 1/4 turn valves, and leaving the drain line plumbing intact where it is should work just fine. Then once it's at least cycling properly then I can increase/decrease the valves as needed following the above rule of thumb.

And further research in other forums, seems to support JCO's comment above. Tomorrow is going to be interesting as I exercise some trial and error.

[Oliver]

I've been offline for a while so I am just now looking at this thread.

I quickly read through the post so I may have missed something.

From your pictures it appears you are using loop siphons, which is all we now use here.

The problem with the siphons not working properly appears, from the pictures, to be that you do not have the bottom of the outside siphon drain set to a low enough level. The bottom of the siphon drain pipes need to be at least 6 inches below the expected siphon break point. This will allow enough gravity down pull on the water having to go up and over the top of the loop (or bell stand pipe) to allow for continued draining until the siphon breaks. Too short of a down pipe, be it loop or bell siphon, will cause the problem you are experiencing.

Your fill times should always be longer than your drain times by 10% or more, but not 3:1 or 1:3.

The way to test your expected full cycle time is to flood your grow bed until it starts to siphon, shut off the incoming water and time the siphon drain until it breaks. This is the unencumbered drain time or UDT. Multiply the UDT by 4 and that will be the minimum possible full cycle time. Actual full cycle full time will be slightly longer than 4 times the UDT with flood and drain times each being about twice the UDT. Again, flood times will be slightly longer than twice the UDT and drain times being slightly less twice the UDT.

Oliver

[Apollo]

Hey, the main reason your pipe siphons are not working has to do with the dumping into the 3" pipe. The height at where they fire can be adjusted by making the center pipe longer to fill your GB more.

You need to rework just one pipe siphon to get the right height first, then move on from there. The pipe siphon exist to the 3" pipe will not work because...it always need to be out of the water to gulp air in order to reset the cycle. Your 90 degree down angle going into the 3" pipe needs to be turned to the right about 90+ degrees. In order to create enough water resistance to completely fill the pipe and fire the siphon.

Instead of a 3" pipe I would try a large rain gutter or some other type of open gutter. Your pump needs to puts out enough water to fill all GB's at the same time and still return about 1/3 to 1/2 of the water output back the to FT or sump as splash down.

It doesn't matter if they all fire at differ times...better if they don't, try for a 8 minute fill with a 4 minute drain. Once you get your center pipe the right height at the 8 min. fill & 4 min. drain. Then do #2, the more GB's you bring online the more water will be diverted from your splash down to your GB's. Repeat #3 and so on.

You can call me on my cell phone I'm on Verizon, it will not cost me anything or I can call you on my land line...I got free long distance.

Your so close, HANG IN THERE!!!!!!!!!!!! Apollo

[Apollo]

Note! Your fill & drain time will double if your barrows do not have media in them, so concentrate more on fill height and getting them to cycle. Once that is completed, then fill with media and adjust flow to achieve your 8 minutes to fill and 4 minutes to drain. Apollo

[foodchain]

It's not a 3" pipe, that's a two inch.
The fill height is not shown in pics. The siphons peak out at 2 inches below the surface edge of barrel. So the head pressure from the water volume in barrel initiates the siphon.
I will make one siphon the inverted U today as suggested, on one barrel and check results. I shut the system down last night with all barrels full. So will have to drain one.
Good point on the media.

Grow beds are filled by gravity. That's the reason why the IBC is elevated, it produces head pressure. As long as there's enough head pressure I have no problem filling the beds. I resolved this initial problem yesterday by adding a pipe to the intake so that it siphons from the IBC at greater depth. This allows for greater swing in water height in the IBC. When the sump is actually connected and in use, this won't be a problem.

I am on my way out the door now to start cycling again.
Thank you.

****Update****The U adjustment made no difference. U or M both are not working, and exhibiting the same symptoms. NOT cycling on and off the way they should.