How I DECIMATED my aquaponics system and I have no idea why!

[Jeff]

Roger - Believe me, I have thought of that too. My biggest fear is that I may be causing more harm than good. A perfect example is the raising heat scenario. I read that raising the heat gradually until it's in the high 70's or low 80's can help the fish fight off certain diseases and parasites. While that may true, I also failed to realize that the higher the temp, the more lethal even the slightest amount of ammonia can be. So I may have actually killed fish by doing that!

I am pretty disgusted by this whole turn of events. I had the most beautiful collection of fish in there, and now I have about 7 left, and only a few of those look active and social. The rest stay hidden or just sit alone by themselves (which leads me to believe that they need help).

I have vowed to not purchase any more Koi or ornamental fish EVER for this system. If I need more fish, they will be cheap feeder fish, and I will be sure to quarantine them for a week in a salted hospital tank prior to adding them to my AP system.

[David - WI]

I don't know enough to offer any advice on "medication" except to say that I wouldn't add any medication unless there were clear symptoms of a particular ailment or infection.

All medicines have side effects... some are common, some are rare, some are well known and some are not.

[Jeff]

I was looking in my hospital tank (where I have a dying koi --- swimming sideways, upside down, listing to one side, etc). I try to feed once a day (a cooked, skinned pea, or a single minced pellet of food), but he isn't eating.

Consequently, I just saw this long, stringy poo (?) wrapped around the air stone cord:

[attachment=0:1xprfuev]photo.PNG[/attachment:1xprfuev]

I know that if a fish isn't eating, their poo would be clear.........but does this look normal, or does this ring any bells as being some sort of wormy parasite? I'm leaning towards the poo theory.

[Jeff]

Okay, I am really beginning to question my SANITY. I just went out there and ANOTHER FISH is dead! I am not used to this kind of mass die-off! This wasn't even a fish that was swimming funky or anything. It was just a fish who was being anti-social and hiding, so I knew something was wrong......but if I tried to catch him, he'd swim away very quickly.

Anyway, I just went out there and he's a floater. Completely dead.

Now, I don't know what to look for to see if I can find a clue as to what killed him. Any ideas? Here are some pics.

This first one is just him stretched on my hand. You can see that he appears to have all his scales, and his slime coat appears to be intact (he felt slimy):

[attachment=2:wq3uywlq]photo 1(2).JPG[/attachment:wq3uywlq]

This next photo, I try to highlight a white-line, if you will......sort of a whitish are on the top of his spine. It doesn't look like ich or anything that I'm aware of. I noticed it for awhile, and other fish acting the same way have it. I can't tell if it's just part of fish changing color, or if that is from rubbing against something, or if it's a SIGN of what could be killing them:

[attachment=1:wq3uywlq]photo 2(2).JPG[/attachment:wq3uywlq]

Finally, the only other thing I can see which may look anamolous is next to one eye, there appears to be some kind of "bump" or wart like thing. Hard to tell what it is:

[attachment=0:wq3uywlq]photo 3(1).JPG[/attachment:wq3uywlq]

Either way, that's ANOTHER fish dead. The only thing I did today was add a mere five gallons of treated water to my 110+ gallon system).

Here's my line of thinking, and correct me if I'm wrong. I think that FOR THE MOST PART, if a fish is feeling sick (due to poor water quality), then by correcting the water, it should hopefully begin to improve. If it doesn't, then it means the fish either had irrefutable harm done internally (like Dropsy), or it's some kind of parasite that has taken root and killing them regardless of the water quality.

That is my fear. My fear is that now that I BELIEVE that I am controlling everything correctly (temps, daily water changes, daily water testing, etc), and yet still, the fish are still dropping like flies and I have no control over it. I have no idea if it's something in my grow beds doing it, or what!

[Jeff]

I am also attaching a photo to show you the sick koi, in case you have any suggestions. He hasn't eaten anything (that I can see) for at least 5 days. He lists to one side, and when he swims, it's usually in side-winding circles.

[JCO]

If you have the KOI in an aquarium with a clear glass bottom, that's the reason he is swimming crazy on his side and in circles. He is trying to go deeper in the tank and can't. Turn off the light, cover the top, back and sides and give him a place to hide...stop changing the water...stop adding salt or anything else. He is really stressed out. Leave him alone other than to put in a 3 or 4 KOI food pellets per day. Hopefully he will survive his stress and any nitrite toxicity he may have suffered..

As for your other fish dying, it could be from nitrite toxicity poisioning. Nitrites got real high for a period of time which is toxic to fish and causes damage to the gills which is non-reversable and fish will become weak over a short time thereafter and die at different intervals.

Disease. Inspect the lost fish carefully. Do you see any evidence of diseases? Blood in the fins or under the scales is usually a sign of ammonia poisoning, but it can also be a bacterial infection. Do you see any signs of something on the fish that is three-dimensional? White spots, perhaps, or "threads" hanging from the fish? These can be parasites such as Ich or Anchor Worms. Do you see tufts of white cottony material on the fish's skin, gills or mouth? This could be fungus. Fungus infections can become so bad that they block the fish's mouth, preventing him from eating. Death follows soon after. Again, your first intervention should be several large water changes. This reduces the number of free-swimming parasites, and freshens up the water, which might have been the original cause of the fish falling prey to disease. Treat the symptoms appropriately. For parasites, my favorite treatment is Coppersafe. There are others. For fungal infectiions, you might consider using Acriflavine or Mardel's Maroxy.

Toxic chemicals. Have you recently sprayed your kitchen or bathroom for roaches or ants? Has an exterminator recently treated your house for spiders? All insecticides are dangerous to fish to some degree or another, and it often does not take very much of the substance to kill fish. If you plan to spray your house or kitchen for any kind of insects, it is wise to first seal the top of the aquarium with plastic, and turn off any air pumps. Failing this, cover the aquarium with a large blanket. Allow at least 3 or 4 hours for the toxic fumes to subside before removing the cover from the aquarium. If your filter permits, running some fresh activated carbon in your filter box for a few days will greatly reduce the risk to fish.

Unexpected toxins. Before your fish began to die, did you dip your fingers or hands in your aquarium? Did you wash your hands thoroughly with plain castile soap before putting your hands in the aquarium? If you are a woman, do you use scented lotions on your hands, or do you spray colognes on your wrists? If you are a man, did you shave this morning, and if so, did you use a scented aftershave by splashing it on your face with your hands? These scented substances can be exceptionally toxic to fish, and can kill fish quickly. Before you dip your hands in your aquarium for any reason, first thoroughly wash your hands and arms with a plain unscented soap containing no antibacterial substances. Rinse your hands thoroughly, and then perform your aquarium maintenance. After working on your aquarium, wash your hands and arms again, only this time do use an antibacterial soap or detergent. Rinse thoroughly, to prevent infecting yourself with anything in the tank.

Unexpected chemicals in your water. Municipal water departments occasionally add chemicals to kill algae or to prevent scaling inside the distribution lines. They usually do this on a regular schedule. Call your water department and find out what day of the month they add any extra chemicals. For example, they may make this a regular practice on the 5th of the month. Then, avoid water changes for 5 days after the addition of these chemicals, to prevent their introduction to your aquarium.

Extra chlorine. During the summer, bacteria in drinking water can become a serious threat. The United States is rarely affected by water-born diseases because water treatment plants aggressively treat municipal water with chlorine or chloramine. If you can smell chlorine in your tap water, that means the chlorine levels are very high. During summer months when they are adding extra chlorine, you may want to double the dosage of your dechlorinator. Simple dechlorinators (Yamato's No-Chlor, Wardley's Chlor-Out) cannot be overdosed. Even if you used ten times more dechlorinator, no harm would come to fish or other inhabitants of the aquarium. Don't be afraid to double-dose on dechlorinator during the summer. It will prevent your fish from being damaged or killed by chlorine.

Sorry, that all I can come up with.

[Jeff]

I appreciate all your comments and that gives me some things to think about. I can clarify a few things about the koi.

That particular koi was swimming like that BEFORE I transferred him into that hospital tank. I had come home from an overnight trip, and checked the aquaponics tank on a Sunday evening. I noticed him swimming in spiraling circles. Imagine a plane which only has one wing and how it may fly. It would spin. That's how this fish was acting. Prior to that, I could tell "something" was wrong. He was keeping to himself.....only staying on the bottom of the tank......not socializing.....etc.

But I digress......

So Monday, I immediately go to Petco and purchase an airstone, a filter, and some Marcyn Two for any bacterial infections. I set up this extra tank (used to house a turtle back in the day), and that's the tank you see in the video. It IS reflective which I agree could be an issue......but that's not the cause of him swimming that way (or at least, it's not what started it). He was swimming this way prior to even going in the tank which is why he was there in the first place.

I don't think he's eaten anything, and all he does is swim on his side.

I will try to put in a place that he can hide to possibly provide some shelter and less stress.

Aside from that, I don't know what else can be causing my other fish to die. I am leaning to one of two things:

1. Either it's a parasite of some kind. In that case, I don't know what to do. I don't want to treat the entire system with a global application of Coppersafe unless it won't harm any healthy fish. If you think it will be fine, then I have no problems putting Coppersafe into the system. I just don't want it to kill any nitrification bacteria or the plants in the grow beds.

2. If it's not a parasite killing the fish, then it may be pH swings. If that's the case, let me ask you this. During the day, when plants are sucking up CO2 from the water, the pH will naturally rise. At night, when there is no sun, the opposite happens and the pH will drop. My question is this. If you have very little fish (producing CO2), but have a TON of plants (sucking up CO2), are the pH swings going to be greater than if I had fewer plants? In other words, if you have more plants than the fish can support, does that increase pH swings? I wouldn't THINK so, but then again, I have no idea what could cause pH to swing so high when I'm not adding other chemicals (besides Stress Coat Dechlorinator and Salt), and my tap water is pH neutral.

Any additional thoughts on these points would be appreciated.

[Jeff]

This is beginning to sound like a broken record. I woke up this morning and another juvenile Koi is dead.

Looks otherwise healthy when I inspect him. I suspect if it's not some parasite, then perhaps it's a pH swing from day to night. I have a LOT of plants, and now barely any fish. Could that be enough to swing pH to toxic levels?

I did a pH test first thing this morning, and if I am reading it correctly, it looks like it's around 7.8:

[attachment=1:254ve6wc]photo 2(3).JPG[/attachment:254ve6wc]

And here's a pic of the fish. It should be noted that this is a fish from the main tank (where all the fish are dying one by one).

[attachment=0:254ve6wc]photo 1(3).JPG[/attachment:254ve6wc]

In addition to the other questions, if you think it's a high pH problem, should I just get some pH down or hunt down some HCl? If so, how much would I apply?

I am really trying to "not do anything", but it seems like the more I don't do anything, the more nothing happens and fish die. Then I try to do something, and fish still die. So if it's not the pH, then maybe it's something in the grow beds (anaerobically speaking)?

[Jeff]

Another question I have: why does this always happen in the middle of the night? Is it because fish are less active and more susceptible to dying? Or could that be a CLUE as to what's happening (again with the pH swing theory, where pH will be lowest during the night but highest during the day)?

And also.......do you think getting more FISH (like cheap feeder fish) would help with any pH swings? More fish could equal more CO2 for the plants, which would also mean more ammonia to feed the bacteria cycle which ultimately brings DOWN the pH. I just fear getting more fish if there is a problem with the system.....but at the same time, perhaps more fish could balance it out by having more activity in the tank for the system to function (as well as add some energy into the tank for the few remaining fish in there).

[Jeff]

Okay - I think I found the problem but I really need your advice. I am THINKING that the problem is definitely related to pH. If you look a few posts above this, you will see the readings I took in the MORNING, where the pH looks to be about 7.4-7.8.

I just took an evening reading (below), and it looks to me like it's around 8.4-8.8 if I had to guess:

[attachment=0:153we320]HighPh (2).JPG[/attachment:153we320]

So this goes back to my previous questions, which are still unanswered:

- Would REMOVING PLANTS help with this large pH swing? The theory would be less plants would mean less CO2 pulled from the water which would keep the pH more acidic (and low). Keep in mind I only have SIX small/medium fish in this 110 gallon system, just to give you an idea of what's swimming in there.

- Would ADDING MORE FISH help with the large pH swing? The theory behind that would be more fish == more nutrients for the nitrifying bacteria, which lowers the pH during the bacteria cycle. Perhaps not having enough fish to provide enough nutrients to the plants is causing these high pH swings during the day.

What are your thoughts based on the above chemical readings?