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  1. #11
    Members Aloha Don's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    dback - welcome to the forum and thank you for that very thought-out and thought provoking post...
    I believe the thing that will hurt the small farmer the most are those government regs...
    All those other items can be overcome but the constantly changing regulations are helping the big guys and hurting us...
    Thanks again for your insight
    Put all excuses aside and remember this: YOU are capable - Zig Ziglar

  2. #12
    Moderator JCO's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    dback, where are you located, I would like to speak to you more about your experience. That was the purpose of this thread to begin with.
    JCO
    Irish eyes are always smiling but
    • "In the eyes of the world, you are only as good as your last success"
    so never forget
    • "MAN IS ONLY LIMITED BY HIS IMAGINATION"

  3. #13
    Members francois's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    Hi dback
    thanks for this post
    makes me think

    Quote Originally Posted by dback
    Maybe I can offer something here. I work with some of the largest growers in the US and have supervisory experience in retail produce. I'll only address those I'm comfortable with.

    1) Location is 'the' critical issue. Climate, work force, business friendly government, energy costs, retail market proximity, etc. etc., will all play a hand in ultimate success or failure.

    2) Concrete.......I see you are located near Jacksonville......you don't want the first tropical storm to relocate you to Georgia. Yes I'm joking......sort of......losing a crop is one thing, losing the entire operation is something else. Goes back to #1.

    6) The 64 thousand dollar question....a Yuma, Ariz. lettuce grower has a great year when a southern Florida lettuce grower has a complete failure. Every cantaloupe grower from California to Florida files bankruptcy when a Colorado grower has a listeria outbreak as "Harriet Housewife" won't touch ANY melon with a ten foot pole in that scenario. If it was me......I might look at a line of 'herbs' for restaurants???????? I dunno!

    7) 20 acres may be large in the AP world but barely qualifies as a parking lot in the world of agriculture. I would think a "unique" crop or a "unique" market will be necessary. "Organic" will not do it as every/most large farms have dedicated 'organic' product lines that you would necessarily be competing with. Were I attempting this, I would target restaurants, farmers market, etc. or better yet, smaller wholesale produce companies who supply these types of businesses.

    8) The trend in Agribusiness is to specialize and give a consistent supply. Take Del Monte Fresh Produce (Coral Gables, Fl.) cantaloupe for example. They start the year in Costa Rico/Guatemala to Florida/Southern Ariz. to Georgia/Central Ariz to Central California/Georgia and then start south again to provide Costco, Walmart etc., with a year around supply of melons. This reduces their exposure to total crop failure and increases the chance of hitting a firm 'market'. IMO, you could do the same (to some extent) in a 'climate controlled' facility. This is only one example of many I could give........again.....IMO, 'unique' is the key.

    9) Just my experience.......total up every expense you can think of......double that figure and you 'might' be close. Keep in mind that there are "MANY" new regulations on the food industry implemented or about to be implemented under the guise of 'National Security', 'Anti-Terriosm', 'Food Security', Chain of Custody that make it ever more difficult for the "Little Guy". Very costly in their implementation.

    My .02 cents.......and about all it's worth.
    Yust me thinking

  4. #14
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    Hmmm......I did introduce myself a couple of months ago but I don't see any sign of the post......not important.

    JCO....I am headquartered and live in Phoenix but we work throughout central and southern California (San Joaquin and Imperial Valleys), all of Arizona and much of New Mexico. With so many years in the industry, I have friends and contacts throughout the US.....even had a Blueberry grower fly me to Maine last year to look at some work...little too far for me, though the summer climate was certainly appealing. At one time or the other we have worked with farms in most of the western states.......who ever has the money to pay their bills

    Don.....thanks for the kind words. Regulations (even the necessary ones) will definitely be a burden to both large and small growers/packers.....more so to the smaller grower, not by design but rather the simple fact that implementation and compliance costs will essentially be the same whether you grow 20,000 acres or 20 acres. Fortunately, at least for the time being, the smaller grower can simply "stay under the radar".... 20 acres of AP may make that a difficult proposition.

    I have been reading this forum for several months now with great interest....even working on the major components to start a fairly good sized system myself. I believe all eleven of the OPs original questions were good and there is a solution to each.....Personally, from my experience I'm afraid that two questions have not been asked (or I missed them) if someone is desirous of going commercial.

    12) How will you meet 'quality control' levels established by numerous government agencies for possible exposure to, who knows what, pathogen or parasite (again 'possibly') present in a FT affluent? With terms like 'e coli', 'salmonella' and 'listeria' sending chills down the spine of every grower, packer and retail outlet in the US......describing a functioning AP system, may not/probably won't, be well received by many retail outlets. I have seen growers remove literally hundreds of decades old trees just to lower bird populations to reduce possible fecal matter contact on produce. "Barnyard" has become a thing of the past without first going through a thorough and complete composting process. Not so many years ago every dairy in California's San Jouquin valley grew almond trees.....it was a great way of disposing of barnyard and dead day-old calves.......that came to an end when Kirkland products had to recall several million metric tons of almonds due to a Salmonella outbreak. I don't know that AP produce 'won't' meet current standards but I do wonder if they currently 'will' and for how long.

    13) How to handle disease. My wife can plant Hollyhocks in our yard and they are beautiful with zero pest, parasite or virus problems, but.......plant 40 acres of the suckers and every pest/parasite/virus known to man will attack them. I grew up on a state Fish Hatchery, maintain a 350 gallon fresh water tank with a 90 gallon sump/bio system in my home for 30 years now and watched my dad work with the state fisheries biologists and conclude that it is virtually impossible to raise high density fish populations without "something" going haywire. There are solutions to each of those issues, however, most solutions to fish issues will be detrimental to the vegetable crop and/or bio system and most solutions to crop issues would be detrimental to the fish and/or bio system. In a 'commercial' operation.....disease issues would need to be addressed prior to promising any retail outlet a continuous supply of Tilapia and leaf lettuce.

    My apologies for the lengthy post.

  5. #15
    Members dead_sled's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aloha Don
    Dead_sled - Of the 13 acres you have, how much land are you dedicating initially to growing?
    What do you plan to grow out to?
    I wish I had that land over here...
    thanks for your input to this
    I have a cleared area that is about 3.5 acres that I plan to utilize for growing. Initially, I would like to have two 20' x 100' greenhouses with AP. So, a whopping .091 acres, . I would like to grow out to 1 acre of AP, 1.5 acres of blueberries, 1 acre of flowers. The remainder of the land is either living space or used to grow meat. Just need to do some fund raising to get it all going. How do you think a money tree would grow in an AP system?
    Less irritating avatar since 02/27/14.

  6. #16
    Members dead_sled's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    Great input dback. Regulations are an area of concern for me. I believe they will be more troublesome than weather, disease, or pests. The later comes and goes, regulations are forever.
    Less irritating avatar since 02/27/14.

  7. #17
    Members David - WI's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    I think that the "scope" of the project (20 acres) changes the whole dynamic for what's practical or possible.

    If I were considering a 20 acre project I would probably move immediately to Michigan, Minnesota, New York or (possibly) Ohio where it's legal to sell Lake Sturgeon flesh and Lake Sturgeon caviar. http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/Home/To...px?PostID=1590

    I think the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources could write the marketing plan for Lake Sturgeon!

    Due to the precarious status of wild sturgeon populations and a high black market value, enforcement of lake sturgeon regulations has been a continuing high priority for Wisconsin Conservation Wardens since the mid-1900s. In addition, the DNR enlists the assistance of many volunteers each spring as “sturgeon guards” to provide 24-hour watch over major spawning sites along the Wolf River to protect the fish from poachers.

    No commercial harvest of lake sturgeon is allowed in Wisconsin. Furthermore, to prevent illegal “laundering” of lake sturgeon into commercial markets, the legislature found it necessary to enact sec. 29.503(3), Wis. Stats., which prohibits Wisconsin licensed wholesale fish dealers from buying,selling, bartering, trading, possessing, controlling or transporting lake sturgeon regardless of the source.

    In order to protect Wisconsin’s native lake sturgeon populations, the Legislature has enacted regulations prohibiting all commercialization of lake sturgeon. Historically, lake sturgeon have had a great “black market” value with the flesh and roe being highly prized. Consequently, Conservation Wardens have found it necessary to devote extraordinary amounts of time and resources to protect this valuable native species, including overt and covert investigations into
    the illegal harvest and marketing of the fish.

    In addition, CITIES restrictions along with collapsing sturgeon populations due to over harvest in Eastern Europe, have reportedly increased worldwide interest in North American sturgeon as a possible source of roe for high value caviar.

    Because of the extremely high value and potential profits associated with a lake sturgeon trade, conservation wardens are concerned about the potential for any unscrupulous private commercial operations illegally “laundering” lake sturgeon taken from the wild.
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
    It's all about the fish, dude.

  8. #18
    Moderator JCO's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    dead_sled

    How do you think a money tree would grow in an AP system?
    I have found money pits are much easier
    JCO
    Irish eyes are always smiling but
    • "In the eyes of the world, you are only as good as your last success"
    so never forget
    • "MAN IS ONLY LIMITED BY HIS IMAGINATION"

  9. #19
    Members Aloha Don's Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    The problems with growing the money tree is that it never produces the desired fruit and constantly needs increased time, energy and wallet nutrients.....
    Dont have the time, running out of energy and wallet is empty...
    Put all excuses aside and remember this: YOU are capable - Zig Ziglar

  10. #20
    Members Roger L.'s Avatar
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    Re: COMM/AP THINK TANK...!

    Everybody thought the apple was the forbidden fruit. I believe it's your money tree Don.
    At what point did our government cease to be of the people, by the people, and for the people?

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