Adjusting PH and adding worms

[Aufin]

worms don't "poo dirt".. read some of the articles posted

Not intending to be arguementative, but, ummm.......yes they do - depending on your definition of "dirt". According to the online dictionary "dirt" doesn't necessarily have to be anything solid such as tiny, tiny grains of solids such as sand, etc - which is what first came to mind when reading this discussion. From everything I've read/learned from keeping a worm bed for a few years, worms don't eat "dirt". They eat the bacteria that is breaking down the organic stuff in the ground, or in my case, the grow beds. By my reasoning, which to my wife is quite often flawed, worms don't excrete the traditional form of dirt that comes to mind, but rather something "dirty"(doesn't sound right to me either, but I don't know any other way to say it), which may eventually break down further into something else as long as the "dirt" doesn't pile up to an unmanageable level. I don't know what eats worm "dirt", but I would guess something does. Other bacteria, maybe? Just sayin'........
And, I totally agree with the general concensus here........if what you're doing is working for you, then by all means keep on keepin' on.

[multifasited]

I guess i will go ahead and finish my argument. I think my point is obvious that matter isnt created nor detroyed....

the worms are not "creating" castings or "dirt' The castings are converted from pre-existing matter in the grow bed, the worms just change it from fish poo or plant matter or whatever.

Without worms, you would get the same amount of buildup of solids.


brian

That makes prfect sense to me,if it was not already there they could not eat it ,and in mho they probably help keep the
surface area from getting clogged and un-useable ,reducing the surface area of the bed.Very good discussion ,I learned a lot ,There are no real right and wrongs ,the thought and explaininations are very helpful ,understanding
complex processes ,thanks everybody ,I for one learned a lot! Carl

[keith_r]

it gets kind of difficult to get apoint across on a message board, i'm not trying to be argumentative..
no matter what, you'll have solids build up in an ap, or even an aquaculture system.. even if you have the spiffiest filtration system in the world, solids will build up.. (albeit more slowly)
so, my point is that worms do mineralize (to some extent) solids in your media growbed and provide nutrients that are more readily available, or easier to uptake, by your plants..and healthy plants are not only more disease resistant, it's a fact that they are more pest resistant.. so worms in an aquaponic system are not a bad thing.. and i'll leave it at that

[FloridaChris]

So... off of the worms topic. pH - Some things I have found in researching my pH problems I want to share here. The problem with a new system that isn't balanced properly may be due to the akalinity of your water. Carbonate hardness. You want to add Potassium Bicarbonate if you water hardness is to low, this can cause pH to be off. For adding buffers, you can use hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) or a stocking full of limestone and sea shells, but the stocking isn't a quick change measure like the calcium hydroxide. I just did a 80% water change to try to get my system running again, as of last night the pH is holding, ammonia is dropping, and nitrites are on the up. I am going to test the water again in an hour or so. My carbonates from the city range from 170-300 ppm, so I think I am good on carbonates for now, but in the future will be looking for a decent water (kH) test kit. Anyone have a recommendation? The ones in HD are cheap and have horrible reviews from what I have seen. Be careful not to change your pH more than .4 in one day. Although my fish went from < 6.0 to a 7.6 pH a few times and seem to be doing just fine.

[rfeiller]

I use electronic meter purchased at a hydroponics store for about $300 of course they have to be recalibrated with regents from time to time. I think you will
Find the system will run just fine even with fluctuations in pH.
It has been fun ready the post in this thread. JCO is absolutely right aquaponics does not use worms. It would take several different names to identify the several different systems i have. Most incorporate one or more of the composting species of worms. (ironically the common earthworm similiar to the alabama jumper is doing the best in the systems and they were not even supposed to be there!)
Unless you set up your system as JCO explained you will have mucky systems. All but one of systems are mucky. I add azomite and calcium to them also. In my dirty systems with the worms the tomato plants get 4-5' tall and the swiss chard and celery get three foot. You have too decide on how much pain you want to inflict on yourself in exchange fot the results you want and for which crops there needs vary.
My two cents is setup your system according to how the pros do it to be as maintanence free as possible and you will be be very pleased with the results. You can always venture out from there i call mine ponics, since the name bioponics is copywrited.

[rfeiller]

this is an endless argument. for a cleaner system you incorporate a filter to remove the fish solids prior to entering the grow bed and basically the worms will do very poorly, but a lot cleaner.
i use several systems, i find the cleaner system is less stable and produces less in general, (not talking about lettuce here). my dirty systems (and they do load up) incorporate both worms and organics. if the worms are thriving there is a lot of organics in the water and eventually need to be torn down. I need to tear down four 100gal GB's they are plugged up. they did produce 3 foot tall swiss chard. 5 ft tomato plants, squash, potatoes, sweet potatoes, beautiful flowers, etc. over the last 3-4 years.
if you incorporate worms it becomes an aquaponic/vermiponic system; if you leave plant matter in the grow bed as it rots it produces nutrients and now you have an aquaponic/vermiponic/bioponic system. i have done all three separately and combined. the most productive was the 3-way combination. an aquaponic system is just that aquaponics=aquatic life and water. (composting worms are not aquatic, no matter how long they can survive in an aquais solution.) what's so hard about calling them what they are? worms are not the secrete to successful aquaponics, because it is now more then an aquaponic system. adding additional nutrients to an aquaponic system to supplement the deficiencies could be argued that it is now a hydroponic/aquaponic system ( have a system like that also).
gotta love it; bottom line raising the most nutritious food you can grow while conserving resources.

[urbanfarmer]

Worms poop whatever they eat that is not absorbed into their body for energy or nutrients. Worms do not poop dirt, ever. If a worm eats soil then the worm will poop soil with organic matter. If the worm does not eat soil then it will only poop organic matter.

Dirt is a dirty word; stop using it folks. Worms poop soil and/or organic matter. SOIL IS NOT DIRT. DIRT IS DEAD. DIRT IS DIRTY. SOIL, BY SHARP CONTRAST, IS ALIVE. Do not use this disparaging insult to describe soil; soil has done you no wrong. In fact, all that you are came from the soil!

Aquaponics is not clearly defined in any scientific or otherwise authoritative literature; therefore, it is not possible to state with any certainty if soil should or should not be part of an aquaponics system. I can tell you that if you use any rock aggregates in your system then you will have soil in your system, inevitably. That's irrelevant. What is relevant is, what does aquaponics mean to you?

Aquaponics is not a science; it's a multidisciplinary application of science into a broad categorization of technologies built around the concepts of aquaculture and hydroponics. The technology has become a spirited movement and to some people imbues a religious type philosophy into their life. I believe in every person's freedom to believe in whatever they want, but those beliefs should not be stuffed down other people's throats. Discussion is quite healthy though! It takes a while to learn that last part...

[urbanfarmer]

this is an endless argument. for a cleaner system you incorporate a filter to remove the fish solids prior to entering the grow bed and basically the worms will do very poorly, but a lot cleaner.

Define "cleaner"

This statement assumes your use of the word "cleaner" is something good or positive. Please explain why we should make the same assumptions? Are the most productive natural ecosystems that you can think of any "cleaner" than their less productive counterparts?

[urbanfarmer]

So... off of the worms topic. pH - Some things I have found in researching my pH problems I want to share here. The problem with a new system that isn't balanced properly may be due to the akalinity of your water. Carbonate hardness. You want to add Potassium Bicarbonate if you water hardness is to low, this can cause pH to be off. For adding buffers, you can use hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) or a stocking full of limestone and sea shells, but the stocking isn't a quick change measure like the calcium hydroxide. I just did a 80% water change to try to get my system running again, as of last night the pH is holding, ammonia is dropping, and nitrites are on the up. I am going to test the water again in an hour or so. My carbonates from the city range from 170-300 ppm, so I think I am good on carbonates for now, but in the future will be looking for a decent water (kH) test kit. Anyone have a recommendation? The ones in HD are cheap and have horrible reviews from what I have seen. Be careful not to change your pH more than .4 in one day. Although my fish went from < 6.0 to a 7.6 pH a few times and seem to be doing just fine.

Yes, carbonates will act as a buffer that will hold the pH in a certain range depending on the equilibrium with other chemical species in the water.

There are some inexpensive and reliable titration test kits from API Master for pH, ammonia, carbonates, etc. A lot of us on here use them with success.

I would stop playing with the pH. If it's between 5 to 9, just give it a while. You're making this too hard on yourself! Have more fun with it!

[rfeiller]

this is an endless argument. for a cleaner system you incorporate a filter to remove the fish solids prior to entering the grow bed and basically the worms will do very poorly, but a lot cleaner.

Define "cleaner"
urbanfarmer wrote:
"This statement assumes your use of the word "cleaner" is something good or positive. Please explain why we should make the same assumptions? Are the most productive natural ecosystems that you can think of any "cleaner" than their less productive counterparts?"

I could have probably explained it clearer; cleaner referring to reduced particulate matter reducing the amount of suspended organics the water appears cleaner. also removing the poop and rotting root mass in the GBs reduces the available food for composting worms which can take in up to their weight per day. without sufficient food they will not reproduce, they will shrink in size and cease to exist. Cleaner means little particulate matter to load up the GB aggregate, or in a raft system reducing the sediment.

aquaponics is a compromise of plant and fish growth to attach the term "clean" to it is relative at best. the only "clean" productive ponics system to me is hydroponics.