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  1. #21
    Moderator davidstcldfl's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    Wow Dave, thats an interesting link you posted. I just wanted to glance at it, but I ended up reading at about a 1/4 of it.
    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same." - President Ronald Reagan

  2. #22
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidstcldfl
    Hi Neil, welcome to the forum....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil H
    over 100 views, is anyone else going to participate??
    Sorry Neil, In the AP forums, we quite often see the 'new guys' come on board, all excited and immediately wanting to go commercial.
    There's nothing wrong with that, a good percentage of us here and at other sites have had that 'bug'.
    Answering the same questions and talking about the same topic, over and over again...well, it's not that we don't enjoy it, but....

    I'll try to post my thoughts soon, right now I should already be getting ready to go to work at the farm.
    Hi David,

    I hear your comments on the "new guy commercial" side of things and yes i can see how this thread would be viewed in this light... I have been actively reading up about aquaponics for several years now, so i would like to think that post count would not be the only criteria for the new guy definition .... none the less i fully understand where you are comming from.

    For the record i have no plans to go commercial at this stage, i dont have the space nor am i in the country i intend settling down in ....

    Perhaps i should have explained the above in greater detail at the onset ....


    Quote Originally Posted by David - WI
    If you have time to read through this, you might get a feel for some of the "problems" that people face going "commercial": http://bayviewcompass.com/archives/11665

    Here is a real estate listing for one of the other commercial systems that was in all the local newspapers as a "cutting edge" urban farm: http://www.bizbuysell.com/Business-O...cs-USA/667278/

    If they were making money, they wouldn't be trying to sell out just because they didn't have money to expand.
    Thank you for the links .... and i guess it really does speak to my thread title ... why is it not pervasive ???

    the first link i found fascinating ....

    1. for the initial phase they scaled up a small system ..... exactly what i said shouldnt be done...... it did not work
    2. the fish were not high value
    3. the investor clearly misunderstood or miss interpreted the technology
    4. system was not balanced, there was a conflict between the invester and the experts
    5. on face value anyway the emphasis seemed to be on fish not on combined fish and veg produce
    6. as i said in my initial post, build up of fish solids was a huge problem, the system was not designed to handle this.

    It would be great if we shared more experiences and thoughts around commercial operations..... in my mind anyway the think tank that will give rise to the full commercialisation of these systems lies within forums like this one ...............

  3. #23
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.jsonline.com/business/98569659.html
    The Natural Green Farms model is similar to plans on the drawing board in Chicago. The Chicago Sustainable Manufacturing Center is working with the Illinois Institute of Technology to develop a vertical farm called The Plant for a former meatpacking plant. It would raise tilapia and vegetables by recycling wastewater from fish tanks to nourish the plants.
    REF: http://www.jsonline.com/business/98569659.html

    When I first saw this system I thought, it sure seems like they're copying that Chicago meat factory AP setup. This article confirms it. I thought, "GEE, someone didn't do their market research because the economic feasibility of this kind of operation faces many challenges in an strongly agricultural state." Running this thing indoors is what put the nail in the coffin. The investment capital is absurd for the production. Their electric bill is over $3000 a month. I'm not even sure how many fish they have in there, but I would estimate their fish feed cost in somewhere in the $300 - $500 range a month, and that's assuming they're not maximizing their fish production (less feed, slower growth).

    FOLKS, THE POINT OF ANY AP SYSTEM IS TO RECYCLE WASTE BYPRDOCUTS OF A SYSTEM AND REUSE THEM CHEAPLY OR FREE AS A COPRODUCT FOR A 2ND CASH CROP. IN PURE AQUACULTURE 1/2 YOUR OPERATING COST, ALONE, IS USUALLY FISH FEED BASED ON PRODUCTION/YIELD. IT WOULD BE CHEAPER TO GROW THE LETTUCE OUTSIDE IN CHEAP POLYTUNNELS THAN THIS MADNESS.

    I can't imagine what other costs they have associated with their operation, but it looks like more than 1 person runs this fiasco. $3000 a month is too little to split for a full-time salary for more than 1 person. The high investment cost, high cost of operation, and poor market positioning has doomed this operation to fail from the start. Never underestimate the power of laying out a good business model and taking the time to research and draft a business plan. Problems like this would have been avoided before spending a penny (not to mention the likely million or millions they spent). Whoever buys this business is a complete idiot. $1.5 million investment to generate a few thousand dollars a month? Juts retired off your 1.5 million, the interest off that will pay you more sitting in the bank.

    Man, what a joke. If this business was a boat, I would liken it to the Titanic sinking except it would have to strike the iceberg that sunk it as soon as it left dock (the champagne wouldn't even have time to wash off). I have never seen an actual business with a negative ROI built-in from the start. I hope the folks who set this thing up come out of it okay. I hope their story serves as a portend to those that expect the "if you build it they will come" philosophy to carry their business to success. Do not let their sacrifice be in vain folks! Let us learn from this monumental failure!

  4. #24
    Members David - WI's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    They are (or were) also here in Wisconsin, not Florida.

    http://www.journaltimes.com/news/loc...9bb2963f4.html
    It's all about the fish, dude.

  5. #25
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    Quote Originally Posted by David - WI
    They are (or were) also here in Wisconsin, not Florida.

    http://www.journaltimes.com/news/loc...9bb2963f4.html
    OH, I gotcha. The for sale pages showed "Racine, Wisconsin (Racine County)". To be honest, putting it in Florida only makes things worse for this type of indoor AP business.

    Investment is the key to unlocking any Natural Green Farms future, Olson continued, saying, “I don’t know a guy who works harder than Joe. And I’m a firm believer that hard work eventually pays off.”
    This kind of thinking is what kept these fools on their sinking ship. Just jump off already; save yourself and what you can! Unfortunately, this is not Disneyland. Hard work does not eventually pay off if working harder does not yield profit. This is business. We compete in an open market against other for-profit organizations. The name of the game is profit not hard work. You can't take the wonderful philosophy of green technologies or aquaponics and translate that into a for-profit business model. Non-profit is a different story, but as the original poster stated, scaling up a backyard system to a commercial system has inherent flaws. Well, this example failure is why.

  6. #26
    Moderator davidstcldfl's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    Hi Neil, Sorry, I was rushing to get ready the other day. It's tuff to communicate by written word alone.

    Here, and at almost any forum, there will be lots of folks that will follow along and not add anything. They may feel like they don't know enough yet, to feel comfortable doing so.
    I belong to a garden site where it's mainly about growing tomatoes. I've grown them for many years, but once I started reading there.... well, I realized how little I knew about tomatoes.


    You made some good points...

    1. for the initial phase they scaled up a small system ..... exactly what i said shouldnt be done...... it did not work
    2. the fish were not high value
    3. the investor clearly misunderstood or miss interpreted the technology
    4. system was not balanced, there was a conflict between the invester and the experts
    5. on face value anyway the emphasis seemed to be on fish not on combined fish and veg produce
    6. as i said in my initial post, build up of fish solids was a huge problem, the system was not designed to handle this.



    Here's my 2 cents on the above...

    1- Your correct, if you add part of #4 to #1. Start with a bad 'small system', scale up, and it's just going to be a bad 'big system'.

    I think anyone wanting to go commercial 'must' try it small scale 1st. This applies to someone wanting to run a commercial setup and/or invest in one. (see # 3)

    So much can be learned this way. Reading training manuals and all the posts at any of the AP forums is a great foundation. Getting fish pooh on your hands is a whole another story.
    Friendly's AP in HI, USA teaches this in their courses. They teach to start with a small system and learn by doing. Plus, then you have your 'now grown' fish to move to your 1st commercial system.

    I work at Sahib aquaponics in Orlando (Winter Park) FL. I've given lots of tours and have seen the 'light bulb' go on, (many times) when I explain something to a person, rather then the person seeing something on-line. It's even more so, when we have volunteers come and work there.

    Back in the day, we'd call the idea of aquaponics "COOL"...now they say it's "SEXY" Once someone realizes that it's actually kind of boring, doing the same thing over and over. It losses the sexiness pretty quick.



    2- Most seem to like tilapia because it's so easy to breed your own. Your correct, fish with a higher value 'could be' better. You mentioned barramundi as an example, but I understand that in AU, they are getting them to breed in lab's. That means even higher start up costs

    The feed cost has already been mentioned.
    I went to an ag conference here in FL. One of the speakers were talking about aquaculture. What stuck out to me was, when he said 'a penny a pound' difference in fish feed cost, could make or break a farmer. He said aquaculture farmers in FL made less then ones in GA, simply because the other guys were closer to the factory, where the fish feed was made.


    #2, 5 and #6.... Friendly's just issued their newest newsletter a few days ago.
    PM me if anyone would like a link to the newsletter. It's not on the 'back issues' list yet...#106



    In it, they shared how one of their students built a low density system and only had 6 pounds of fish. The 'Friendly's' recommendation for their size system was 76 pounds of fish. Then, they figured the student was only feeding aprox 1/10th of the feed they should be. The plants were starting to show signs of deficiencies.

    Now Friendly's will be doing more studies on how little fish, one really needs. This sure would eliminate a lot of cost, problems and extra work.



    #3 and the second half of #4

    I know that dance.....



    On another note...which I believe Urban Farmer already mentioned ....ROI.

    Sahib did a search and found out the average organic farmer, only made 25K a year. I'll have to ask him for more info on details with that figure.

    I just mention it because, if you have a large investment, and your actually successful/profitable...will you make enough to even pay the investors, let alone make enough to live on...?



    As far as the commercial farm it's self...to me, it seems like one needs to build a smaller commercial system, being able to be run by one or two people...maybe with a part timer or two, when needed.

    OR...go MEGA commercial size. But then it's back to 'where' does the funding come from ?



    As far as the manager/farmer....you better have it in you, being a farmer that is. Not just day dreaming and thinking how 'cool or sexy' it would be, to be a 'famer'.

    As far as an investor, if your the kind that hears your manager/farmer tell you, the drain needs to be a 2 inch line and run down hill....

    as you sit behind your desk and you 'invision' making it a 1/2 inch line that can just be thrown on the ground with no problems.. ..you best stick to the stock market instead.
    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same." - President Ronald Reagan

  7. #27
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    True, we didn't even address that being a farmer is hard work. I think most people really enjoy hard work if it's something they love or at least like. The stress level in farming is the exact opposite of trading the stock market. I will take farming any day!

    Compared to most small businesses, starting a farm is one of the easiest things to make successful. Being in direct control of the cost and quality of your product is an inherently rewarding aspect of it... well, to me!

  8. #28
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?


  9. #29
    Members dead_sled's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    Great article. Thanks. Definitely stresses the need for a good plan, including what and where to market the goods. Similar to any other business.
    Less irritating avatar since 02/27/14.

  10. #30
    Moderator davidstcldfl's Avatar
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    Re: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive?

    Interesting article UF.

    Looking at the picture in the article....I wonder why they spent all the extra money to have rasied raft beds...?
    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same." - President Ronald Reagan

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