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  1. #21
    Members aquaarche's Avatar
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    I guess you could also create a frame to cross a whole section of a bio clarification tank. 12in wide wide 3 feet across by 3 feet deep just be sure to make it fit tightly using silicone or other sealer, so as you pump water out of the bio clarification tank it draws water only through the filter. Use stiff netting type material on each side fill with shredded Mylar and other plastics learning to pack it to the right density will benefit. make an outer frame siliconed to the tank and an inner frames to slide into place with rubber making the seal tight and making it easier to remove for cleaning

    It is a way we can take and use materials normally going to fill a land fill and recycling them to filter biomass from our water. you can also set it up and let water free fall by gravity through a bio filter and it would also airiate the water at the same time.

    I was researching the bio filter that a lot of companies sell and what I found was the material is nothing more that fibered spun plastics with just fancy names to make you think it was something special. I figured I could recycle Mylar snack bags and do just as well.

    be careful using asorbic acid types of Vitamin C it will lower your pH so be sure to always test your water seems 6.5-7.0 pH does well for most plants

  2. #22
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Quote Originally Posted by badflash
    I'll try some experiments to see, but I doubt seriously that citric acid is effective against chloramines. Chlorine, for sure, but in order to take out chloramines, you need to break the amine bond ,then take out both chlorine and ammonia.



    You mean Ascorbic Acid right ?
    In any case, without showing all the chemical structures and equation balancing the reaction goes like this:
    Ascorbic acid + Chloramine ? Dehydroascorbic acid + Ammonia ? + Chloride

  3. #23
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Hey Lance,

    thanks for the "simplified" chemistry!!

    WHERE does the Dehydroascorbic Acid go? Ammonia gets broken down for Plant-food and Chloride evaporates out right?

    thjakits

  4. #24
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Hi thjakits,
    Some ammonia will evolve from the water as a gas (NH3) and the rest stay in solution as Ammonium (NH4+) depending on the pH but there will not be much of it considering that the source of nitrogen is from chloramine which is only 4 parts per million allowable in municipal water according to the EPA. Chloride will stay in solution since it is an ion
    (Cl-), if it were Chlorine (Cl2) it would evolve as a gas. As for the DHAA; It enters the metabolic pathways in animals where concentrates in the mitochondria and brain, converts into Ascorbate and functions at protecting cell walls and mitochondrial genome. In plants it is concentrated in the chloroplasts and has a role in photosynthesis.
    The AWWA has a five page article on neutralizing chloramines with ascorbic acid and you can read the abstract on line but they charge 20 bucks for the whole paper: http://www.awwa.org/publications/opflow ... 17703.aspx

  5. #25
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Thanks Lance!

    Chloride/chlorine!! Should have paid more attention in chemistry in school - maybe I wouldn't be THAT lost!!
    Too bad they want 20 - rather buy a few more bulkhead fittings for that!

    So basically what you say is that DHAA is not a bad thing?!

    We are in the process to collect bits and parts for a serious backyard system with the express goal to build up basic operations knowledge from ZERO and use it as a test and trial lab with the focus on a hopefully viable commercial set-up later (different site, different layout but same procedures and principals and fauna and flora)
    SHOULD we get to the commercial phase we probably will want a biologist on the team to do all the testing and studying the details.

    Besides the bits&pieces, we are trying to find out details about local specifics like WHAT does the local water-company use: Chlorine, Chloramine, ....??

    Question 1: If I use ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate to condition the water, any damage done if there is NO chloramine to break down? Will the ascorbic acid break down eventually and leave the system or at least "no harm done"?

    Is there any specific test kit (that doesn't cost a fortune) to test for Chlorine vs. Chloramine (and possibly other chemicals used in potable water treatment plants)?
    [Even if we get an answer from the local water guys - there is always a component of distrust - "local experience over the years... 3 "!
    [Our "research-lab" is supposed to be built in Panama...]


    Cheers,

    thjakits

  6. #26
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Sounds like an awesome venture thjakits, so right now you guys are making something like a prototype ?
    Hach has test strips which measure Chlorine from 0 to 10 ppm
    http://www.hach.com/free-total-chlorine ... allback=pf
    They also have a hand held colorimeter that will test free chlorine and total chlorine..and from I understand chloramine can be determined by the difference of the two.
    Culligan has a cheap kit too
    https://www.filtersfast.com/P-Culligan- ... st-Kit.asp
    If you want more accurate results it's best to get a UV-Vis spectrophotmeter, it's probably the cheapest chemistry lab instruments and you can get and it does a whole array of testing including free and total chlorine, it's one of the "workhorses" of our lab. They can be found used on Ebay for cheap.
    Other chemicals of concern from water treatment plants are what's called "Disinfection Byproducts" here is a list from the EPA http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants ... oducts.cfm
    These chemicals are more expensive to test for because they require instruments like Ion and Gas Chormatographs. you would probably want a chemistry lab to run those for you ...well at least until the facility in Panama has a lab.
    Going back to DHHA; I haven't found any articles in regard to detrimental effects of it but I did find a paper on the degradation of Vitamin C which might be interesting.
    http://courses.washington.edu/edtep586/Colleen%20.ppt
    Unfortunately I could not open it up because the computer Im using doesn't have Office (I know weird)

  7. #27
    Moderator JCO's Avatar
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Photos of the project and progress would be greatly helpful and educational to all
    JCO
    Irish eyes are always smiling but
    • "In the eyes of the world, you are only as good as your last success"
    so never forget
    • "MAN IS ONLY LIMITED BY HIS IMAGINATION"

  8. #28
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Hi all,

    Lance, thank you very much for the water-test details! I will check this out!
    Initially we will certainly just go with the "economic" test sets - SHOULD the commercial project get of the ground - well, I will push for as much automation as possible, especially on system-environment control (- and in extension, use the data for automatic "disaster" control or at least containment - like in "cut off the problem-part of the system")

    JCO, NO hardware has been produced yet, so the only pic would be of the available site - flat spot, partially under trees, with some hill-side further away (25-30m), if necessary!
    Furthermore, I am already kind of "compromised" to start a system thread on another forum (I have been pestering these guys with questions a LOT, they want to see something too!)
    Once this gets underway, I will have hardly any spare-time at all and still need to get my head around picasa or photobucket or similar.

    However, if it is not a no-no on this forum I can cross-link to the thread(s) on the other forum.
    Who knows, maybe I'll change the "primary"-forum along this journey, but there are just too many of them to follow and participate in all - (and AP is not the only interest I follow on forums, mind you!)
    For now I just cross-post, if this is not acceptable, let me know (mods!) and I edit this post accordingly.

    My other "question"-thread is here, including a lengthy "idea/plan-explanation":
    "edited by JCO."

    [I hope there is no ferocious competition between forums, it's about perfecting AP after all, isn't it?]

    Cheers,

    thjakits

  9. #29
    Moderator JCO's Avatar
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    thjakits, you are a welcome voice on our forum, however cross posting with links to other AP forums/sites is not allowed.

    I did follow your link to BYA and I noticed that you have made 23 posts there compared to 3 posts on DIY even though you joined both forums the same day.

    I also found it strange that you took the time to list where you are from on the BYA forum but not on our forum.

    Please don't misunderstand, I am not demanding that you choose between the forums, but I do ask that you understand that there is always a certain amount of jealously between forums.

    As for you having other interest in other things and posting on non AP forums, it is apparent you have not actually caught the AP virus/bug as of yet (there is no known cure) or you would actually have no time for any other thoughts or activities.

    A true Aquaponist lives, breaths, eats, sleeps, dreams and only has thoughts of nothing but Aquaponics.

    I initially learned about Aquaponics in 1967 from a dear friend who passed away long ago.

    I have been active in AP ever since with many systems that have come and gone and truly more failures in various methods than successes but the thought of wavering from my addiction has never crossed my mind.

    When I discovered Aquaponics, I was raising tropical fish as a hobby, but now my only interest other than Aquaponics is raising KOI and Ryukin Goldfish, which brings me right back to Aquaponics as they are the fish I use for my systems.

    Please visit DIY often and post while you are here but remember DIY and BYA are worlds apart.
    JCO
    Irish eyes are always smiling but
    • "In the eyes of the world, you are only as good as your last success"
    so never forget
    • "MAN IS ONLY LIMITED BY HIS IMAGINATION"

  10. #30
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    Re: removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C?

    Hey JCO,

    ...sorry about the "jealousy"-issue!

    I joined even a few more forums that day!
    For no particular reason, just happened to start on BYA.
    I think I am already infected with non-curable AP-virus, just did not have the opportunity (various reasons) to get a system set up.

    (I did mention that the planned BYS is going to be built in Panama.....)

    I stumbled onto this forum after a google-search for Chlorine/Chloramine treatment - Lance's posts stood out, so I asked!

    I am VERY interested in AP since about 3 years, but only recently found the chance to get serious with it.
    If you read through my BYA-thread you got the picture....

    I wish, there was a way to cross-post, because I definitely will not parallel the same story a few times - I suspect I will eventually to get to ask questions on other forums too....

    My other interests will never go away, no matter how hard the AP-affliction becomes!!

    The other interest-forums are dormant for extended periods of time, but never shut down!

    - Motor-cycles (AdvRider, Suzuki V-strom and BMW-airheads, and others....)
    - 4x4 (Toyota before, VW-Amarok now, and a number of truck forums 4x4 pirate, Expedition-Portal; take a taste: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/t ... Free-Frame - I started to post somewhere after post #500-soemthing, same username as here...)
    - Skoolie-Conversion (Skoolie.net)
    - Alternative Energy
    - Shipping-Container Housing
    - Aviation
    - Boats/Hovercraft

    ...not likely that I will loose interest in any of those over AP.

    However AP WILL become a very important part of my life (and my families), if commercial doesn't work for us, at least for personnel use - Green Forage meat production is next - using AP to grow the stuff....
    I just don't have the site in place yet - working on it!

    Again - NO particular reason why BYA first - I did not chose, just got there first for no reason at all (I don't remember! Most likely a google search and BYA was the first link that looked promising).

    I am just extremely busy right now to assemble my BASE-LINE of knowledge to start from.
    Obviously AP is one of those areas where you can do things a million different ways and get a 100million opinions what is right. I am not sure if it is going to be weeks or months until we start to cut up IBCs and PVC-tubing, but in the meantime I will just absorb as much as possible and make up "my" baseline to start from.

    Most likely I will just keep on going with my questionnaire over at BYA - if can't get a satisfying answer, I start here - I will introduce our project properly then, but will only copy it over from the "other side"...

    Thanks for your interest and time!!

    Cheers,

    thjakits

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