To current or not to current, that is the question.

[wh33t]

Hey all,

Quick question, how good/bad/useful/necessary is to have current in your water? I currently have a water pump that has a three way splitter on it. One goes to a flood table, one goes to the bio filter (flood and drain) and the other goes into a custom venturi I made which shoots air and water into the tank creating a circular current.

I just recently had 12 gold fish die (some of my new feeders) and My Ammonia levels are below 1pm, Nitrite zero, Nitrate 20-30ish, PH 7.1, PPM 40 and Temp 22c. From my experiences so far, and from reading online all of those levels should be perfectly acceptable for common Gold fish feeders. But perhaps the current was too much?

Now I was thinking perhaps the fact that I bought 50 x $0.19 gold fish feeders could be the problem. This pet store (Petsmart) doesn't have a great history of gold fish. In fact I often visit their fish section and I see dead floating goldies.

It's important to note other than Aquaponics (about 3 months of experience) I have no experience with Aquaculture what-so-ever (never had a fish when I was younger, I'm not sure why). So I guess I also need to hear some experiences with how important it is to source your fishies from integral sources. or maybe even producing my own?

Thanks in advance for all future replies and discussion.

[urbanfarmer]

First question: "PPM 40" of WHAT? That's like saying I have 40 pounds... pounds of what? Nitrate? TDS? Something else?

Do you know more specifically what the ammonia level was? Remember, an ammonia/ammonium (TAN or total ammoniacal nitrogen) reading of 1 PPM can mean death or survival of your fish at different pH levels. Anything above 7 pH starts dramatically increasing the problems. For instance, a reading of 1 PPM is 1000% more toxic at 7.1 pH when compared to 6.1 pH. However, I agree with you that the goldfish "should" tolerate those levels at that pH...

I wouldn't be so quick to rule out disease. Maybe your fish were so unhealthy, as you implied, before you bought them that they simply succumbed to an existing condition. I was always happy to let the ones that die off at the start go to fishy heaven because Mother Nature was selecting the strongest ones for me. It has been over a year and my PetSmart feeder goldies are HUGE and quite alive. However, I almost always end up buying fish from there that come with (free bonus with every fishy purchase) ick or some other parasite or disease... you have to just observe and diagnose and fix it.

What about chlorine? You didn't mention how fast they died after you got them. Goldfish don't seem to tolerate chlorine from my tap very well, but the Tilapia don't care 1 bit (obviously because of a difference in physiology, but I won't get into it).

It could also be stress. Were you constantly scaring them with your face? JUST KIDDING, but seriously they can die from stress. This usually involve other creatures living in the tank, but it can also be from handling them too much (or even once in some specific cases). I just handled about 50 Tilapia and I smell pretty fishy writing this post... anyway, I had a few goldfish with the Tilapia. I freaked out because I thought I spotted ick on a white goldfish about 8 inches long. Once I got her, I noticed it was scale damage probably from the Tilapia. I noticed the Tilapia are catching up in size to the large goldfish (which was the only reason I felt the larger goldfish were safe with the Tilapia) and not to mention I'm seeing the caudal fins turning red on the Tilapia, meaning they are likely being more aggressive now. That fish should be okay (I hope), but it seemed a bit weak because it was so easy to catch. The escape behavior was minimal. She could die from stress, as your fish may have... may have not...

ANYWAY, hope that helps. It's impossible to diagnose based on nothing! If this was a math question I would circle "not enough information", but even with a lot more information it would likely be impossible to say without a histological autopsy on the dead fish. Cheap microscopes are cheap. Get a few fish books. You'll be a pro in no time.

"You're not a real fish farmer until you've killed a million fish." --someone wise

[rfeiller]

feeder goldfish are usually in very poor condidtion from overcrowding, and pathogens. at least in the USA, i don't know about your area. the only time i have any luck with them is when i buy the whole bag of a couple hundred before they are released at the store. you will always loose some because of the condition the feeders are in. goldfish are pond fish not river fish, they do better with some circulation and some aeration.

[urbanfarmer]

feeder goldfish are usually in very poor condidtion from overcrowding, and pathogens. at least in the USA, i don't know about your area. the only time i have any luck with them is when i buy the whole bag of a couple hundred before they are released at the store. you will always loose some because of the condition the feeders are in. goldfish are pond fish not river fish, they do better with some circulation and some aeration.

Oh, right, good point... ya it is very unlikely to have been the current... fish love currents... fish are to currents as we are to aquaponics! ADDICTED

[wh33t]

feeder goldfish are usually in very poor condidtion from overcrowding, and pathogens. at least in the USA, i don't know about your area. the only time i have any luck with them is when i buy the whole bag of a couple hundred before they are released at the store. you will always loose some because of the condition the feeders are in. goldfish are pond fish not river fish, they do better with some circulation and some aeration.

Ok, so just to clarify "Current is good" correct?

First question: "PPM 40" of WHAT? That's like saying I have 40 pounds... pounds of what? Nitrate? TDS? Something else?

Do you know more specifically what the ammonia level was? Remember, an ammonia/ammonium (TAN or total ammoniacal nitrogen) reading of 1 PPM can mean death or survival of your fish at different pH levels. Anything above 7 pH starts dramatically increasing the problems. For instance, a reading of 1 PPM is 1000% more toxic at 7.1 pH when compared to 6.1 pH. However, I agree with you that the goldfish "should" tolerate those levels at that pH...

I wouldn't be so quick to rule out disease. Maybe your fish were so unhealthy, as you implied, before you bought them that they simply succumbed to an existing condition. I was always happy to let the ones that die off at the start go to fishy heaven because Mother Nature was selecting the strongest ones for me. It has been over a year and my PetSmart feeder goldies are HUGE and quite alive. However, I almost always end up buying fish from there that come with (free bonus with every fishy purchase) ick or some other parasite or disease... you have to just observe and diagnose and fix it.

What about chlorine? You didn't mention how fast they died after you got them. Goldfish don't seem to tolerate chlorine from my tap very well, but the Tilapia don't care 1 bit (obviously because of a difference in physiology, but I won't get into it).

It could also be stress. Were you constantly scaring them with your face? JUST KIDDING, but seriously they can die from stress. This usually involve other creatures living in the tank, but it can also be from handling them too much (or even once in some specific cases). I just handled about 50 Tilapia and I smell pretty fishy writing this post... anyway, I had a few goldfish with the Tilapia. I freaked out because I thought I spotted ick on a white goldfish about 8 inches long. Once I got her, I noticed it was scale damage probably from the Tilapia. I noticed the Tilapia are catching up in size to the large goldfish (which was the only reason I felt the larger goldfish were safe with the Tilapia) and not to mention I'm seeing the caudal fins turning red on the Tilapia, meaning they are likely being more aggressive now. That fish should be okay (I hope), but it seemed a bit weak because it was so easy to catch. The escape behavior was minimal. She could die from stress, as your fish may have... may have not...

ANYWAY, hope that helps. It's impossible to diagnose based on nothing! If this was a math question I would circle "not enough information", but even with a lot more information it would likely be impossible to say without a histological autopsy on the dead fish. Cheap microscopes are cheap. Get a few fish books. You'll be a pro in no time.

"You're not a real fish farmer until you've killed a million fish." --someone wise

40ppm of who knows, probably trace minerals from the fish food. I have a TDS meter and it reads in PPM and EC, but what it is measuring I don't know. I just through that metric in so people would know I don't have crazy EC lol.

I presumed it was just the quality of the fish.

Now if it is just the quality of the fish, for whatever reason they are dying, is it transferable to the other healthy fishies in the water?

[Basil1]

If they died from a disease then it could effect others. Feeder goldfish are normally kept in poor conditions so are not the hardiest to begin with. Another aspect of your water that can cause problems is PH. If there is a significant difference in your systems water versus the water they were in they can die of shock. They can take a gradual change and be ok in a wide range of ph levels a sudden large change can be bad. On the plus side they are cheap.

[urbanfarmer]

Okay, well TDS is your total dissolved salts. My tap water starts at 200 PPM TDS. No big deal there.

So again, how long did it take the fish to die after you brought them home? I'm starting to think it was a simple chlorine toxicity... Do you have chloramine in the water or chlorine? Both will kill your fish.

[wh33t]

Okay, well TDS is your total dissolved salts. My tap water starts at 200 PPM TDS. No big deal there.

So again, how long did it take the fish to die after you brought them home? I'm starting to think it was a simple chlorine toxicity... Do you have chloramine in the water or chlorine? Both will kill your fish.

I bubble out any new water to remove the Chlorine smell. Usually a 5 gallon water jug with two air stones in it for 24 hours. I dunno if that actually removes Chlorine but it certainly removes the smell of it.

The first fishies died with in 24 hours, and every day since (about 3 days now) about 1-5 fish die per day. I usually find them stuck to the big water inlets on my water pump filter. I thought perhaps the current was too much and they were getting tired and then they'd just get stuck to the water pump but I have seen them swim away from the water pump before.

Also, in reference to your PH shock I actually never tested the water the fish arrived in. I shall check next time for that.

[davidstcldfl]

I bubble out any new water to remove the Chlorine smell.

That works for 'chlorine'....if you have 'chloromines'....it won't (well, maybe in a month of bubbling.. ) A quick call to you water dept might be worth the effort. It would eliminate one possibility...

[wh33t]

I bubble out any new water to remove the Chlorine smell.

That works for 'chlorine'....if you have 'chloromines'....it won't (well, maybe in a month of bubbling.. ) A quick call to you water dept might be worth the effort. It would eliminate one possibility...

Well one thing worth noting is that I do normally use this stuff called "Prime" which apparently removes Chlorine and Chloromines and the lady at the pet store did tell me I would need to use it, but I wasn't sure how that reacted with plants so I figured I'd just bubble the water but perhaps that's the problem. I sure hope it doesn't harm my big healthy gold fish.

The plants seem great anyhow.