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mbrown
06-08-2011, 01:11 PM
Hi everyone, new to this please bear with me. Added plants 4 weeks ago and fish just last week, I have a 300 gal fish tank with a 110 gal reservoir 3 grow beds @12" deep, 2 - 3' x 6' and 1 - 3' x 5', also 2 - 4" x 10' lettuce beds (continuous flow). I have issues with PH too high running at 7.8 +, and alkalinity running at 40 ppm. tried a few different types of pH down without success and tried raising alkalinity using baking soda, no luck. Now I have oyster shells in the reservoir trying to raise my alkalinity, this is my second day with the oyster shells and it dropped to 20 last night and this morning it was back up to 40, pH the same at 7.8. Using a 14" x 14" bio filter pumping 600 gph through it changed that yesterday to the new setup. going out to check my levels again this evening. How long will it take to change my levels from where they are to a workable level? I lost 5 Commit Goldfish, not sure why, they just started swimming slower and slower then stopped. My DO is.....well it is the right color on the chart, not sure how to read the graph, but I added 8 drops of the third reagent D, so I'm guessing my DO is ok. HELP! Please.

cedarswamp
06-08-2011, 02:36 PM
So you're trying to raise alkalinity but lower ph? You're fighting yourself, 7.8 is fine for starting a system, it will work it's way down nicely on it's own as everything cycles.


Unfortunately your fish probably succumbed to rapid back and forth changes to ph. Try to make any changes to water chemistry slow and steady. Try again without trying to change your water chemistry and I think you'll be fine. Except maybe add a bit of chelated iron for the plants.

mbrown
06-08-2011, 06:48 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence on the pH. I will wait. I am very impatient sometimes. Anyway, where would I find Chelated Iron?

rfeiller
06-08-2011, 07:35 PM
Remove the oyster shells. I would personally do a good water change to get rid of some of the stuff you added
what type of media are you using. about 3-4 weeks ago I started some new grow beds using red lava the pH went from 7.4 to 8. I ran peat in the system to bring it back down 7.3-7.5 it fluctuates a little. Now I will let the replacement water from the tap 7.4 and the organic activity to lower the pH even more.
You may want to test your media.

mbrown
06-08-2011, 08:04 PM
You think I should remove the oyster shells? I have read in many places that is the best thing to raise alkalinity. My tap water replacement is 7.0, I have had to add 30 to 40 gal in the past week because of the evaporation, its been in the mid to high 90's this week. My media is gravel, regular 5G gravel, washed but rough on the edges. My water in the tank is crystal clear and very light fish smell, Iv'e seen indoor tanks smell much worse than my tank.

rfeiller
06-08-2011, 09:53 PM
if you are raising tilapia your fish will be happy at 8.0. if you are raising anything else including plants 7.0 and lower is better. by raising the alkalinity with oyster shells or dolomite or whatever increases the water's buffering capability which makes it more resistent to change.

urbanfarmer
06-09-2011, 12:09 AM
I agree. Stop messing with your pH. 7.8 is FINE! HOW much did you add of what?!? Are you saying pH of 7.8+ because that's the highest reading on your pH kit? A little baking soda goes a long way, it's possible you spiked the pH to 10 or higher... Not to mention all that sodium could react raise the salinity... one thing goldfish can't handle is that. They are TOUGH fish, but man... :-(

Also, baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) makes the pH go up as does oyster shells (calcium carbonate). By raising alkalinity does that mean you were trying to increase the pH? Because it seems you were trying to lower it at the same time. No telling what the pH down had in it, but it's also possible your TDS is so high it's messing up osmosis of the plants and osmoregulation of the fish. That's not a good thing. BTW, pH down + baking soda = SALT for sure

cedarswamp
06-09-2011, 03:51 AM
"TDS is so high it's messing up osmosis of the plants and osmoregulation of the fish."

What????? :shock:

:lol:

samtheman
06-09-2011, 05:08 AM
This reminds me of myself when I started my system, I was so impatient trying to lower my ph and adding chemicals that my fishes started to glow at night. After that I decided to start from scratch one more time and after 2 months my system dropped the ph from 7.8 to 7.2. My plants were too yellow at the beginning so I started adding a little of Maxicrop with iron weekly til my system started to mature. Test your water every couple of days to find out when your system is fully cycle. I don't know what fish you are trying in your system but if it's tilapia then don't worry too much about the ph. It looks like you have a great system setup so good luck in your journey.

keith_r
06-09-2011, 05:23 AM
you can find maxicrop with iron pretty easily on the web to add chelated iron..
as others have said, stop with adding any chem's and messing with the ph!
did you cycle the system with fish?

mbrown
06-09-2011, 06:11 AM
Thanks for all the advice everyone, I really appreciate it. I am raising comet goldfish, they are inexpensive and fairly resilient. So what I am gathering from all of this is that I'm trying to hard to get everything right too fast. I changed out 60 gallons of water last night, my tank is 300 gallons. Should I add more fish? I only have 6 - 5" goldfish right now. The pH down I used I picked up at the hydroponics store and I was told it was safe for consumption and wouldn't hurt the fish, so I'm pretty confident that it's good stuff. I have 2 ways I check pH, I have an electronic tester that goes to 14 and it has never read higher than 8.0 then I test with my liquid test kit which has a low pH and a high pH test and it is between 7.7 and 8.0. I will be removing the oyster shells this morning, on my way out there in a minute. The new fish are doing very well so far. I will keep you posted. Real quick, the question I need answered right now is should I add more fish?

keith_r
06-09-2011, 07:15 AM
personally, i wouldn't use the ph down no matter what the "hydroponic store" says.. your ph will come down naturally.. trying to change it will stress the fish and make them more apt to get sick
you won't need to add shell grit until your system drops below 7, the shell grit will buffer your system to about 7.4 if you have enough of it

mbrown
06-09-2011, 07:24 AM
Should I add more fish?

keith_r
06-09-2011, 08:50 AM
what are your ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings?

samtheman
06-09-2011, 11:32 AM
You are going to need more fish but if your ammonia or nitrite levels are too high the fishes will probably die. Keep testing the water and check the readings that Keith is suggesting.

cedarswamp
06-09-2011, 01:22 PM
I'm assuming since you got the ph down at a hydro store that it's General Hydropnics brand?

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/msds/pH_Down_Wet.pdf

Plants don't care where the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate come from, at this point IMHO you should just cycle your system with plain old household ammonia dosed to 2 to 3 PPM. (No detergents or fragrances), then add fish after your system has cycled.

urbanfarmer
06-09-2011, 02:42 PM
2 H3PO4 + 3 Na2CO3 --> 2 Na3PO4 + 3 CO2 + 3 H2O

Na3PO4 is the salt accumulating in your system, mostly.

mbrown
06-10-2011, 08:27 PM
My pH level has been a steady 7.8 - 8.0, Nitrate, nitrite and ammonia have been according to the chart that came with the test kit, at the lowest levels. alkalinity has been 40 ppm.

rfeiller
06-11-2011, 10:40 PM
always a growth experience! :)

bcotton
06-13-2011, 05:59 PM
Dying fish and yellow veggies.. If your PH is ok, and your ammonia and nitrites are ok, i think it's time to look at your system itself... What materials are you using can something be bleeding something harmful? How is aeration? Is it possible you have an anaerobic zone seeping methane into your water?

Not to contradict everyone, 7.8 ph probably wont kill your plants but 7.8-8 ph is pretty high. Even if you have iron in your water a lot of plants are going to have trouble absorbing the iron. Your fish should be fine though.

brian

mbrown
06-15-2011, 06:27 AM
Quick update, I am up to 16 fish (300 gal tank, 51 sq ft of media grow bed and about 10 cubic ft of lettuce continuous flow beds) they seem to be doing well. The only chelated iron that my hydroponics store had was liquid seaweed with iron, is that ok to use? I haven't done anything with the pH it is running at 8.0, ammonia is 0.25, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. How long does it take for the nitrates and nitrites to show? What should the levels be?

rfeiller
06-15-2011, 09:06 AM
It just doesn't appear that nitrification is taking place or you would be seeing a nitrite spike.not just ammonia and no Nitrates.

keith_r
06-15-2011, 10:18 AM
my first "cycle" it looked to me that the nitrite bacteria take a little longer to "get up to speed" than the ammonia bacteria..

is the liquid seaweed called maxicrop with chelated iron? i've been using it for about a year now (sparingly) -the may help with your high ph, not to bring it down, but to provide some nutrients that may be "locked out" due to the high ph..
i wouldn't add anything to change your ph, it will come down (unless your media is a limestone???) from the nitrification process

if you do decide to "take matters into your own hands" research any product you think you want to add, look up the msds sheet.. aquarium products aren't usually meant for fish/plants that you plan on eating.. and make any changes slowly, a fast/large change can stress or even kill your fish

Oliver
06-15-2011, 10:36 AM
You may want to soup up the bacteria process by adding some to your system. We use NitroMax and it seems to work well.

And, yes, Maxicrop plus Iron is one brand of seaweed that we use also.

Oliver

Oliver
06-15-2011, 11:05 AM
Ammonia at 0.25 ppm is not very high. Considering the large number of gallons of water and the few fish you have, the whole system will take some time to cycle.

I would expect with your low fish to gallons of water ratio that once it has cycled, the Ammonia and Nitrite levels will be so low as to indicate near zero; and it will take some time for your Nitrates levels to come up to planting levels.

As to your question on another post this morning, you may not have enough bio-filter to support a larger amount of fish.

I wouldn't worry about the pH, for it is in a good range for the bacteria to multiply and the nitrification process will slowly bring it down. Please stop trying to control everything in your system, let nature take its course. Once you have it properly set up, you only need to feed it with some starter bacteria, fish and fish food, and perhaps some MaxiCrop plus iron later on for the plants. Start out with green leafy veggies (no flowering plants until later) and watch your chemistry.

As to plants, it is too early for there to be any plants in your grow beds, for there are not enough nutrients to support them. Wait until your Nitrates are around 10 to 20 ppm before planting, otherwise, you will experience what you have experienced.

Make sure the water you put in your system is chlorine free. Yes, I know it will evaporate and is only a small amount, but it will interfere with what you are trying to do in this early stage of system cycling.

You must have patience for nature is on its own time schedule.

Oliver

rfeiller
06-15-2011, 11:16 AM
Remember chloramines will not evaporate. Check to see which one you have. Chlorine is easy to get rid of chlorimines are not. They will eventually break down but in the mean time. You can get a API kit to test for if you are concerned.

bcotton
06-15-2011, 07:25 PM
Chloramines are pretty easy to deal with. There another thread about using ascorbic acid (vitamin c) removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C? (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?118-removing-chlorine-from-tap-water-with-Vitamin-C)

If it's been 24 hours and the fish arent dead, it's probably not the chloramines. Unless i missed it, the OP still hasnt told us what type of fish he is using and there's been no mention of dying fish other than the subject. It would help to if we had more specific information.

p.s. OP, update your location


brian

Madmax478
06-17-2011, 09:36 AM
Grats on even having a Aquaponics system
Trying to fix multiply problems at one time is a recipe for disaster.
There are good people on this form that will answer you questions.
Slow down take a deep breath and ask questions before you try to
change 2 or 3 things at one time.
If you have two or three problems... Ask which one should be take care of first.
Actual the hardest thing about Aquaponics is the patience to let things sort
thems selfs out.
You think your raising fish and plants but actual you have a massive bacteria farm.
Something you can't even see. But without these little guys nothing works.
My best advice is one thing at a time go real slow and watch how it effects everything else.

I get my chelate iron mail order
Liquid Iron for Plants, Fertilizers, Tree & Vine Care - GEMPLER'S
http://www.gemplers.com/product/156302/ ... ron-Plants (http://www.gemplers.com/product/156302/Liquid-Iron-Plants)

rfeiller
06-17-2011, 09:43 AM
Welcome madmax478 to our forum
When you have a chance go to a place to say hello and introduce yourself and your location.

mbrown
06-18-2011, 04:33 AM
chloramines are pretty easy to deal with. There another thread about using ascorbic acid (vitamin c) removing chlorine from tap water with Vitamin C? (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?118-removing-chlorine-from-tap-water-with-Vitamin-C)

If it's been 24 hours and the fish arent dead, it's probably not the chloramines. Unless i missed it, the OP still hasnt told us what type of fish he is using and there's been no mention of dying fish other than the subject. It would help to if we had more specific information.

p.s. OP, update your location


brian

I have mentioned before that I am using Commit Goldfish, the pond I set up is so my kids can see whats happening. They like the Goldfish. Anyway, I have been adding the Maxicrop with Chelated Iron and everything seems to be doing well.

mbrown
06-18-2011, 05:21 AM
As to your question on another post this morning, you may not have enough bio-filter to support a larger amount of fish.

As to plants, it is too early for there to be any plants in your grow beds, for there are not enough nutrients to support them. Wait until your Nitrates are around 10 to 20 ppm before planting, otherwise, you will experience what you have experienced.

You must have patience for nature is on its own time schedule.

Oliver


I realize that I may need more grow bed, but I am running out of space. I am using a 14" bio filter to filter the water in the tank, I noticed when I started using it my water looked much clearer. I had posted earlier that I was going to remove it but decided against it. I respect your guidance with my system but, when I was researching this to start building, the information I found then said to start cycling my system with just water then add plants then add fish in that order. So I have plants in the grow beds and have for some time now. My plants, as mentioned earlier, were doing ok but slightly yellow, the seaweed with iron seems to be working well for that. So I am at a dilemma, sort of, I cannot afford to start over and I need this to produce. All of the advice I have been getting so far has been great and I appreciate all of it. I guess what I need right now is, what is my next step to ensure healthy plants, fish and most importantly bacteria?

bcotton
06-18-2011, 07:17 AM
I think your grow space is fine.

2 - 3'x6'x1' = ~270 gallons
1 - 3'x5'x1' = ~110 gallons

In a few months when it's cycled and stable you should have enough grow beds to support ~60 lbs of fish.

If you wanted to increase your fish density over 60lbs you could add more grow beds, but grow beds just dont seem to be the problem here.

Personally, i wouldnt use a bio filter with this setup. If water clarity is a problem, make sure you have enough water pumping to turn over the volume of water a couple of time every hour and it should clear up on its own.


brian

mbrown
06-18-2011, 09:31 AM
I think your grow space is fine.

2 - 3'x6'x1' = ~270 gallons
1 - 3'x5'x1' = ~110 gallons

In a few months when it's cycled and stable you should have enough grow beds to support ~60 lbs of fish.

If you wanted to increase your fish density over 60lbs you could add more grow beds, but grow beds just dont seem to be the problem here.

Personally, i wouldnt use a bio filter with this setup. If water clarity is a problem, make sure you have enough water pumping to turn over the volume of water a couple of time every hour and it should clear up on its own.


brian

My clarity was good before the bio filter, but it seemed to get even better after. I am at 16 goldfish now they average 5", should I add a few more? :?: :?

bcotton
06-19-2011, 09:41 AM
My system is similar size to yours (300gallon stock tank+100gallon sump+55gallon fingerling tank+370gallons of grow beds). I ran my system with about 22 tilapia ~12-15lbs of fish for a long time. If your water is cycled, you can start adding more fish, but there's nothing wrong with what you have right now.

Even after the system is cycled, it still takes a few months for it to really mature.

I recently added a 4 dozen catfish and perch fingerlings. But the driving ammonia engine in my tank is still those 20 or so tilapia and my plant growth is outstanding.

From what i understand about your system, I would take out the biofilter. You want the bacteria in your grow beds to mature and break down the ammonia and solids for your plants to use as nutrients.

brian

mbrown
06-20-2011, 05:56 AM
Well I removed the bio filter and increased the aeration, the water is still looking good and the fish are always hungry. The fish were eating about a 1/2 oz of food twice a day the first week, then all of a sudden the were acting like I hadn't fed them in a week. Now they are eating 1 oz twice a day and they are stating to act hungry again. They have grown about 2 " in the last 2 weeks. My plants have all shot up in the past 3 or 4 days also, they are looking healthier. Thanks to everyone who gave advice.

urbanfarmer
06-20-2011, 06:16 AM
It's what we're here for! :-D

bcotton
06-20-2011, 01:45 PM
My fish dont eat when they are stressed. Right after a move, temperature swings, cold water or even if i mess around in the tank with a dip net trying to fish out one of the egg carrying females can make them all eat a lot less for a few days. So it sounds like things are starting to take care of themselves.

brian

mbrown
06-20-2011, 02:14 PM
Tested everything today, pH is still 8.0, ammonia 0.25, nitrite and nitrate still 0. :?

keith_r
06-20-2011, 03:48 PM
no feed, and relax.. have a beer
patience will get you there

mbrown
06-20-2011, 04:24 PM
So stop feeding them for how long? 8-)

urbanfarmer
06-20-2011, 04:58 PM
You can feed them a little. That ammonia is very low and you will want a little bit to produce to move the process along.

How big are the fish? The size of the fish will determine an adequate feeding schedule. Fish are all too commonly overfed. Some fish will continue eating when their stomachs are full and they will poop out undigested food. It's the same as having overfed and having the food float around. It will produce tons of ammonia; so, be careful.

Are you getting feeder goldfish from the store? That may be the problem. You bought sick fish, which is not all that uncommon. They don't take care of them because they consider them the swimming dead just waiting to be purchased and fed to another pet.

mbrown
06-20-2011, 08:32 PM
My fish average 5 - 6 ", they are very much well and swimming. :D I have 16 Commit goldfish, sister to Koi, they are very healthy, i may be feeding them too much. I started with 1/2 oz morning and night then after a week went 1 oz. After I read your post earlier I didn't give them dinner, figured I would wait till breakfast and go back to 1/2 oz. :?:

urbanfarmer
06-21-2011, 08:04 AM
Ya, if everything was fine at 1/2 oz I would stick with that until you get a handle on things. Those are some adult fish; so, they shouldn't need nearly as much food since they won't be growing all that much compared to something like Tilapia of that size. Or maybe I'm just starving my poor fish! :lol:

mbrown
06-21-2011, 08:35 AM
These fish will get to about 14" when they become adults. Their not little goldfish. :o