Big Johns first steps into AP

[jcoop]

Well since we have a Big Al I thought I should be the Big John

I have a 10x12 Greenhouse and want to dedicate it to AP. I first thought I would start with IBC containers for fish, but finding known clean ones for a reasonable price has been difficult. I really like the Ferrocement tanks that Stucco is using and I may end up going that direction, not sure on the cost though, after adding the epoxy paint the cost may be up there also.

So here are my current options and cost estimates

1. Build an 11.5' x 2' x 2' box from lumber that I have all ready and purchase a pvc liner for around $100.00, apx 700g
2. Have a chance to purchase 3 87 gallon tubs at about $20.00 ea, apx 250g
3. I have a 4' x 3' cement pipe that I could use with the addition of a PVC liner for around $75.00, apx 285g
4. 110g stock tanks at $65.00, could start with two and expand later.

The first two options could fit inside the greenhouse, the third could go outside and be mostly buried in ground.

I would like to start with about a 200g system with the room to grow, option 1 could be built but only filled part way to meet that.

The growbeds I am planning on building from lumber with a PVC liner also.

I am in Northern California in the Sacramento area, we have temp swings from freezing in the winter to 105 in the summer. Looking at keeping catfish, Blugill or perch.

looking for direction

Thanks

Big John

[rfeiller]

Welcome to the forum
EDPM liner will last twice as long as PVC.and is tougher. Keep us posted. The first option will grow with you without additional cost. My 2cents

[davidstcldfl]

Hi Big John... :D

[JCO]

Welcome to the show....pull up an easy chair, relax and stay awhile. New voices are always a welcome addition to our family..! Whatever questions you have on you mind, this is the place to get the answers so pick a topic of your interest and start your own thread and Enjoy. :mrgreen:

[urbanfarmer]

Greetings Earthling, and welcome! :mrgreen:

[jcoop]

Thanks for the welcome,

Really leaning towards the wood box with liner, hope EPDM. I know with that I will do it once and be done. The plastic tubs I worry about getting old and breaking.

Soon as I get done with the retaining wall in front of the green house I will start digging so I can recess the FT in the ground about 16-18", that way the temps will stay more stable and I will not have to build a box quite as high. I am thinking two 2" x 12" (23") plus the recess should give me around 40" of depth, is there any problem with a tank that deep? should have access all the way along the top.

John

[cedarswamp]

Welcome John. :D

[jcoop]

I have been collecting used Hydroton, but don't think I will get enough for what I need. I need to know what type of rock can I use that will not effect the PH of the system. I have seen people use lava, but have not heard what it will do to the PH.

Thanks
John

[cedarswamp]

I've been using the bags of red stone from Home Depot, also the river stone from HD, neither has affected my ph, but the are heavy.

[jcoop]

Thanks, I will drop by HD and take a look. One bed will be on the ground so I may try it on that bed. I tend to overbuild anyway so I don't think the weight will be an issue.

Picking up another 300L of Hydroton tomorrow, but that may be the last for awhile.

John

[jcoop]

Just got back from my road trip, scored 28 5gallon buckets at a great price. Now to move it all and see how much I really have at the moment.

John

[cedarswamp]

That would be closer to 500L :mrgreen:

[urbanfarmer]

I can't wait to see what you whip up!

[jcoop]

I can't wait to see what you whip up!


Me too,

Think I have over 1000L to date, got one more possible small buy then I am going to stop until I know how much I really need.

Still debating about tanks, and I may have found a source for food grade IBC tanks so I am back to waffling on that. Still working on the greenhouse it's self so I have some time till I decide.

I do have a 100g stock tank that I may start up with so I can get going. I know I can always change things as I go along. I don't expect to build the perfect system the first time. This really is a test bed for much bigger plans, I would like to venture into the commercial end, I have a little land to play around with so this is really to get my feet wet so to speak.

Going to have to put up some pics

John

[jcoop]

Ok, Pic time

Hydroton collection, there are 5 large dog food bags hidden and 4 crates on the right side that you cannot see either
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7089.jpg

Wifes pond for Lilly pads, thought about using this as my fish tank.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7084.jpg

Greenhouse entrance and the retaining wall I am slowly working on
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7085.jpg

Interior of Greenhouse, fish tank on left side and GB on right (someday)
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7086.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7087.jpg

John

[urbanfarmer]

That looks like hundreds of dollars in hydroton! Is that a HF greenhouse?

You could easily throw some koi or goldfish in that pond just to spice things up.

[rfeiller]

looks like you just have to put it together and you are off and running, the pond works. wish i could use the KOI pond in my front courtyard, but my boss says no on the grow beds at the front door. women are just to concerned about appearances sometimes!
i like the supervisor on the picknic table making sure you are doing a good job.

[cedarswamp]

Looks good Big John....although pushin' that wheelbarrow must have been a bear. :shock: :lol:

[jcoop]

UF All of the hydroton is second hand, most of it has Root from (medical plants) in it so it will need some cleaning. Have rite around $200.00 invested rite now so not too bad. I could always sell it for what I paid or even a little more if I need to.

It is a Harbor Freight greenhouse, it's not a bad GH, but needs some reinforcement here and there and I replaced the north wall with house sideing.

The cats where waiting for dinner, they where not much help except knocking dirt back into the pit where I have dug it out.

The Pond has a bunch of Mosquito fish in it rite now. If I moved some of that water into my system would it kickstart the cycle?

Have 3 wheelbarrows one has the foam tires so it never goes flat the other two always seam to be sitting on the ground, guess I should change them over someday.


Got a water trough that looks to be about 90-100 gallons, think I will start with this while I am waiting for the IBC's or decide to build a bigger tank. That means I need to get moving on a growbed.

John

[urbanfarmer]

I would not use any pond water in your system. This can cause more problems than it's worth. Studies have shown that you can't really speed up the colonization of bacteria in your system by adding bacteria. It still takes the same amount of time.

[jcoop]

UF, makes sense. I will stay away from that.

John

[jcoop]

Making progress on the greenhouse and the surounding area. Have decided to scale back a bit for the first go round.

This will be what I am doing first off

110 Gallon FT
Maybe a sump tank of around 100 gal
4 maybe 5 2' x 3' x 8" Growbeds, these are the mortar mixing tubs from Lowes.

I will pump from the sump tank to the GB, The GB will be on a timer of 15 min on and 45 min off, they will drain directly to the FT and the overflow from the FT will go to the sump.

Hope this makes sense. Please offer any suggestions.

After chatting with another member "eskowronski" it made more sense to start off smaller

[rfeiller]

Flood and drain works real well for many different plants, but then the folks are jucing up the plants hydrponically. The ones I have seen the crops were really being forced, they get phenomenal results.
You might want to try your mosquito fish first, I am still trying to get the chemicals out of the reservoirs, tubing pumps and airstones from the equipment from a drug bust. Still smell like cannibus! :lol:

[jcoop]

[quote="rfeiller"]You might want to try your mosquito fish first,

any advantage to the Mosquito fish? Wally World had feeder goldfish for .10 ea figured I would start with 20 of those and see what happens.


I understand about the smell, half of my hydroton came from places like that. got a few "medical" roots left over that will have to be cleaned up.

John

[rfeiller]

since you had mosquito fish already usually they fill the ponds thought you could just put some of those into the tub. feeder goldfish are cheap and easy to come by. whatever works for you. just repeating what you probably already know, they use fungicides, insecticides in their mixes.

[Big Al]

hi Big John, keep up the good work best wishes. good luck Big Al

[urbanfarmer]

+1 for goldfish

[jcoop]

Ok,

Got a second GB today so, tomorrow I am going to level the bed for the growbeds, add a table top for the base, set two of the four GBs up, put the FT under the GBs. Have some bulkhead fittings on order, they should be here Tuesday, but I can place the beds over the FT and pretend they are draining. Going to have four GBs with two pumps feeding two GBs each. They will be on a timer so that they pump 15 min of every hour, but they will be offset 1/2 hour so two pump on the top of the hour and two pump on the bottom. Two pumps will give me some backup if one fails, they will be on independent timers. Now I just need to figure out the timers, got them second hand with no manuals. with the electronic timers I don't think I will have them cycling at the same time so I hope to get away with a 50g sump tank. will find out tomorrow after some playing.

Will try to post a couple pics along the way.

John

[jcoop]

Pretty quiet around here

An update,

Got the stand leveled for the gb's, got some wood to make a top for the gb base cut to length and installed. Filled up a gb with hydrocal to see how much water vs hydrocal and it looks like I will have about 10g of water in each gb, so that means I will have twice as big of fish tank as GB, looks like I need to rethink the amount of GB or just reduce the amount of fish. Either way it looks like my 45g sump may not be big enough. I might get away with 4 gb's, but if I want to add any my sump will be undersized..........d**#*)@$##@

Don't really want to pump from the FT,

May have to go find a clean 55g barrel to use as a sump.

Figured out the timers so that will work,

did the plumbing on the FT,

All for now.

John

[rfeiller]

it's a growth experience. no matter how many times you work it out in your head or on paper you get blind sided somehow. :)

[jcoop]

I expect this will be a one season setup so maybe I should not worry about expansion too much and just go ahead and do it. I can pump two of the gb's at a time and that will reduce the load on the sump, so that may be the solution.

I know this is truly a learning experience for sure.

john

[urbanfarmer]

Yep, that's what I would do!

[jcoop]

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/Fstsump.jpg
Got some time to play today.

Had to relevel the FT after it was full it sank a bit. Need to add some braceing to the sump, it looks like it would split the moment I had a load of fish and was leaving for the weekend.

[urbanfarmer]

I have that same plastic tote. It will split if it's the size I have. I thought I had a nice cheap way to make a system using these totes, but the thing collapsed overnight. Oh well, back to the drawing board!

[jcoop]

It had some of the Hydroton that I bought used in it, so the cost was nothing. Thinking about a 110g stock tank, but that's another $75.00 Really thinking of some bracing with metal stakes and plywood. It's 45g ans it's a little small, but I think I can make it work. the other option would t bury a 55g plastic drum, but then my pump would have to pump another 3' higher because I would have to bury it so far.

Back out side to make some braces for the GB's

John

[urbanfarmer]

Remember, when the pump is pumping through the tube in water, you don't count that towards the max height. For example, if the pump has a max height of 4 feet and you have it sitting in 3 feet of water, you will roughly get the same GPH as 1 foot not in water.

I have a 55 gallon plastic tote that would collapse with the gravel and water I have in it, but I have it framed inside wood. It works just fine that way, too!

[jcoop]

Got a bulkhead in the one gb, braced up the sump tank and plumbed the drain for the gb.

Now a question about the stand pipe,

I understand that you should have it cut to the length that you want your water level, I think I read somewhere that you put a small hole in the just above the bottom. So the pump runs and will overflow the stand pipe, but when it shuts off the water will drain slowly through the small hole at the bottom.

the question is what size of "small" hole at the bottom?

thanks
John

[rfeiller]

I do not drill the hole, if the power goes out I want the beds to keep whatever water is in them. They can stand a day or two flooded, but not dried out and that is a drain hole.

[urbanfarmer]

I don't do this either. This is more for people that flood and drain on a timer and not a siphon. It looks like your water should be pretty well oxygenated; so, you really shouldn't have any problem. I like to give the plants a few inches at the top of the gravel just for oxygen absorption. This should help dramatically in most cases.

[jcoop]

Flood and drain was the direction I was heading, if all of my gb's dumped at the same time I would flood my FT. I am going to run multiple pumps on there own timer so I can controll the cycle a little better

John

[rfeiller]

you still don't need the drain hole for flood and drain. when you have flood and drain the supply is just a screen fitting on the bulkhead with a 1/2" supply line from the pump, next to that you have another bulkhead usually 3/4"with that you have an overflow riser at the height that you want the water level it too should have a screen fitting on the end to avoid having the tube plugged. of course at the end of the cycle the tray empties through the pump which serves to back wash the impeller and tubing.

[jcoop]

Played with some auto siphons today, what fun.

May end up going that way, but have some more thoughts and ideas to play with

John

[AZdesertFarmer]

John, My only concern with your set-up is solids removal from the FT. If I am following correctly, you are pumping from your sump -> growbed --> FT with the FT overflowing to the sump. Are you using a Solids Lifting Overflow in the FT to remove the solid fish waste? and if so, can your pump handle the solids that end up in the sump? You are going to need a way to get the solids out of the tank. If you do not want the solids in the growbeds, you may want to put baffles in the sump to create a settling area before the pump. If you are going to put worms in the growbeds to handle the solids. I would suggest pumping from the sump to the FT, overflowing (using a SLO) to the growbeds, then draining to the sump. This also gives you clean water (no solids) in the sump which will extend the pumps life and allow you to add NFT trays or a raft bed later down the road.

Just a couple more ideas to keep your head spinning.

- Larry

[AZdesertFarmer]

Just went back through the pics and noticed that you are pulling off the bottom of the tank to remove the solids +1 . You may want to add another outlet pipe above the FT's high water mark directly to the sump as a back up overflow protection in case the SLO gets clogged.

[jcoop]

Yes I am pulling from the bottom of the tank, my biggest problem is that when more than one gb dumps at the same time the 1" pipe cannot handle it fast enough. Would like to add an overflow, but don't really want to cut another hole in the tank. I have seen some way to lift it over the edge, but cannot find it now. will keep looking

John

[cedarswamp]

Yes I am pulling from the bottom of the tank, my biggest problem is that when more than one gb dumps at the same time the 1" pipe cannot handle it fast enough. Would like to add an overflow, but don't really want to cut another hole in the tank. I have seen some way to lift it over the edge, but cannot find it now. will keep looking

John


http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/Momus128/overflow.jpg

Let me know if you need to know how to make it work.

[jcoop]

thats it, I assume that where the "T" is that will be your water level?

thanks

John

[cedarswamp]

Yes, set the bottom of the tee, at the lowest point you want your water level, and your tank will never go lower than that point. Just don't replace the tee with a 90 or it will continue until your tank is empty.

[jcoop]

Found some 1 1/2" pipe and fittings in the junk pile (I never throw anything away) Put it together real quick but had to get ready for work........ Will see how it works tomorrow. I am guessing that you block the opening in the "T" and fill it up to force the air out of it, then it should work from there on?

Thanks

John

[cedarswamp]

You need to submerge the whole thing, and tilt it around to force the air out, then plug/cap off the leg that stays in the tank, hook it over the side of the tank then remove the plug/cap. Some folks glue an air pump check valve into a drilled hole on the top loop and suck the air out, but I prefer my way as there is no chance of air getting into the loop, I'm not sure I could trust those cheap plastic check valves. If air gets into the loop it will stop so watch where you place any airstones. (Wonder how I know that?) :lol:

[keith_r]

yup, they can work great, but if the "priming" fails,it can be a mess..

[cedarswamp]

True enough for us indoor folks, John is outside. :D

[jcoop]

Added the extra drain from the ft and I think it will be enough to handle the drain from the growbeds.

Now I need to do the other two GB's and get the pump plumbed up for the supply side.



Now I am thinking of adding a couple growbeds to our exsisting pond. It is established with a few million Mosquito fish and lillypads. There is no pump and no water movement at all. Going to add a small pump and a couple growbeds to get some filtration to it.

John

[rfeiller]

Added the extra drain from the ft and I think it will be enough to handle the drain from the growbeds.

Now I need to do the other two GB's and get the pump plumbed up for the supply side.



Now I am thinking of adding a couple growbeds to our exsisting pond. It is established with a few million Mosquito fish and lillypads. There is no pump and no water movement at all. Going to add a small pump and a couple growbeds to get some filtration to it.

John

why stop now, you are on a roll!! :lol: :lol:
rich

[jcoop]

Not stopping at all, just changing course a little

Have decided that the greenhouse is going to be too hot in the summer so, I moved the growbeds up to where the fish pond is. Now I am pumping straight from the pond to the GB's and letting them drain straight back into the pond. Will post some pics tomorrow if I can get my memory card back from my son.

John

[rfeiller]

:D

interesting how are aquaponics projects evolve, twist and turn. :D

[urbanfarmer]

:D

interesting how are aquaponics projects evolve, twist and turn. :D
Well since it mimics nature, that's no surprise! :lol:

[jcoop]

ya never know where you might end up.

I think this is a perfect summer system, I can move it to the green house when fall comes along and keep everything going.

[jcoop]

Well here it is.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7094.jpg

Had to build a shade cover, the sun was just too intense for the new plants. Have 5 Cukes, 6-7 bush beans that the wife just put in today and about a dozen basil seeds buried in the right hand bed.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7096.jpg
Here is a pic of the rock guard I made, 3" cap and some rain gutter guard material
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7097.jpg

Pic of the drains, still have one to do, but the just drain back in to the pond. A small pump runs for 15min each hour to flood, then it just drains out the back. Not much to fail. If I loose power, the fish are fine.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7095.jpg

One more overall pic
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff300/jcoop0001/Aquaponic%20Greenhouse/100_7098.jpg

John

[kneedeepinwater]

That is a neat little setup! Plants look like they are doing great. I like the natural feel I get looking at it and the surroundings. From the looks of this when you move to the greenhouse you system will be even nicer. Keep up the good work.

[jcoop]

thx for the comments, had a couple of the beans die, think they had too much root damage when the wife transplanted them. Cukes are doing well and have had a couple of the basil seeds sprout.