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chrisfoerst
05-04-2011, 07:44 AM
I have a 75 gallon tank that pumps up to two barrel grow beds. Each of these has a bell siphon made from 1", 2" and 3" pipe. I have airline tube coming out of a 2" cap. I basically followed the design that I saw online. One of them works like a charm but the other one runs continuously, returning water to the tank all of the time. (They are identical in construction

I have removed all of the hydroton from the grow bed and looked at the siphon but I can't honestly tell what is going wrong. (I already did this twice!)

I also tried changing the water flow and removing the elbows at the bottom. These changes make the siphon work for a short while but inevitably, it reverts back to continuously running water.

Any suggestions of what I might to do fix it?

keith_r
05-04-2011, 10:22 AM
do you have a "balance" line between the two barrels?

chrisfoerst
05-04-2011, 10:43 AM
Probably not, I'm not sure what that is. The water from the tank pumps up to a T and then divides fairly evenly between the two barrels. Do you mean that I need to connect the barrels from the sides to even out the water flow?

rfeiller
05-04-2011, 10:55 AM
This is the one set of videos on YouTube "aquaponics 05 bell siphon troubleshooting ( part 1of2) that really simplified the construction and adjustment of the bell. he does an excellent job if showing and telling how to adjust the bell siphon. (Syphon may be spelled syphon instead of siphon on you tube.
I have several gbs that are feed off a 4000gph pond pump but each has a seperate ball valve to adjust the water flow. I think that is what Keith was referring too. One side is getting more flow then the other.

keith_r
05-04-2011, 11:35 AM
actually, i was talking about just connecting the barrels so that both fill at the same rate after the point where you put a line to connect them, but adding a valve to both outlets will allow you to balance the flow..
just remember that if you find that you need to "close" both valves a little bit, you'll be increasing the pressure which can shorten the life of your pump..
if you have too much pressure, you can divert off of your supply line back into the ft with a t and valve as well to help reduce the pressure..
does that make sense?

chrisfoerst
05-04-2011, 07:46 PM
Well, I sure appreciate the suggestions. I watched the videos and fiddled around some more with the flow but still no luck. I was struck by his design, he doesn't use an airline tube at all. I wonder if I should just redo the siphon following his method.

I think it may be the siphon itself that is causing all of the problems. I could put a balance line between the two but if its the siphon with the problem then that won't make a difference. Changing the flow rate doesn't seem to make a difference. The one that works, is consistent no matter what and the other one never breaks.

rfeiller
05-04-2011, 10:35 PM
that is why i suggested you view the videos, mine work perfect and no air tubes. i think the success is actually the round holes and not square. use a 1" to 1-1/4" hole saw, a fostner bit throws the shavings everywhere, the hole saw is also a lot less money. have fun :)

arleygroup
05-05-2011, 05:56 AM
I use the bell siphon that Murray outlines in his TotePonics1 pdf file and it works like a champ. I didn't even have to adjust it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbZyxL8jYwk
Ken

rfeiller
05-05-2011, 08:12 AM
There are numerous designs that work for folks, this design is working very well for me
So I shared what worked for me.

urbanfarmer
05-05-2011, 08:24 AM
I just build them and make them work. I haven't really looked into the physics behind it, but affnan has: http://affnan-aquaponics.blogspot.com/2 ... _9459.html (http://affnan-aquaponics.blogspot.com/2010/02/affnans-valve-detailed-explanations-of_9459.html)

rfeiller
05-05-2011, 10:14 AM
I found Affman's design the most complex, also the bell top cap that he uses is not availadble here and the inside flared reducer is only available, from what I found in an inside threaded design. I found using his design unreliable I have watched his videos over and over.
Badflashe's design works but I don't like the air tube.
I prefer simplicity

urbanfarmer
05-05-2011, 12:22 PM
His design is simple. He removes the air tube and adds the flare. If you look carefully at some different designs he has, you can get the ideas of how siphons work and then build your own based on your materials, skill, and craftsmanship. This is a DIY kind of world!!!

rfeiller
05-05-2011, 02:51 PM
With the design I am now using no flare no air tube=no unnecessary cost or work :D
Try it you'll like it!

urbanfarmer
05-05-2011, 03:14 PM
I am always open to innovation. Did you post your design somewhere or is it just a bell siphon with no air tube?

rfeiller
05-05-2011, 04:51 PM
Not my design, I posted the YouTube title on page one of this thread. It's title is Aquaponics 5 bell siphon troubleshooting (part1of2)

urbanfarmer
05-05-2011, 05:58 PM
OH, yes I saw that. :mrgreen: I thought you meant your design; my mistake, sir.

fryguy
05-05-2011, 09:32 PM
I used the Affan mini siphon design as well. At first I had a little difficulty making the siphon stop. Then I just put a plastic lunch sack help in place with a rubberband over the top of the 2" tube and it has worked perfect ever since.

rfeiller
05-05-2011, 10:15 PM
was yours leaking air. i glued the caps on mine. i believe it was Badflash that told me to glue the cap, it feels tight but isn't air tight. took two crow bars and a sledge hammer to get them apart, but it still leaked air. :lol:

urbanfarmer
05-05-2011, 10:28 PM
WEIRD, I just use the PVC glue. Prime it first then use the PVC glue and twist it. It it supposed to make an air tight seal that can handle some pretty high PSI!

rfeiller
05-05-2011, 10:31 PM
at first i did not glue them, the friction of plastic to plastic joints can become very difficult to get apart, but they still can leak water or air. so i have been glueing them since.

chrisfoerst
05-06-2011, 08:03 AM
rfeiller, Did you follow his suggestion of using a 1/2" stand pipe that fits into a 3/4 bushing and then adapter to a 1"bulkhead fitting? I ask because I have a 1" standpipe coming straight out of a 1" bulkhead fitting. It would seem that he creates an inverted Affnan-like bell at the bottom with this move from 1/2" to 1". (Or is this completely unnecessary?)

I never did glue the 2" cap to the 2" pipe. Is seems very well sealed and the other one works great. Could this be my problem?

rfeiller
05-06-2011, 08:44 AM
It was a problem on the first one I built even tight to the touch. Or better said the problem stopped. It still wasn't working consistently so added air tube.
The three latest 3 I used a 1" bulkhead fitting, a 1" tube and a 3" bell with four 1-1/4" holes at the base as shown in the video. I adjusted the individual drain tubes about an inch or so and all three work flawlessly.

rfeiller
05-06-2011, 09:01 AM
I think one issue that is not pointed out is the design of the caps. PVC caps have several different designs. The two most common are flat and rounded. I can't help but think that has a bearing on design and sizing. I use the standard rounded. I went to a 3 to 1 ratio on my tubes. I will be posting some pictures on a new thread. And a step by step series of photos in the journal.
These are 100 gal gb that now drain very quickly.
I am certainly not an authority on AP I just share my expertences good or bad. Maybe it can help a few avoid my screwups and enjoy my successes. :)

urbanfarmer
05-06-2011, 09:08 AM
I think one issue that is not pointed out is the design of the caps. PVC caps have several different designs. The two most common are flat and rounded. I can't help but think that has a bearing on design and sizing. I use the standard rounded. I went to a 3 to 1 ratio on my tubes. I will be posting some pictures on a new thread. And a step by step series of photos in the journal.
These are 100 gal gb that now drain very quickly.
I am certainly not an authority on AP I just share my expertences good or bad. Maybe it can help a few avoid my screwups and enjoy my successes. :)
Actually, yes it could have an affect on the flow rate required to start the siphon and get it to full power because of Bernoulli's principle. Someone would have to sit down and draw it out and get some equations with variables and then crunch some Calculus. I can do it, but I really really don't want to, really don't. And, I doubt anyone even cares to have that information! :lol:

rfeiller
05-06-2011, 11:57 PM
how have your siphons turned out?

chrisfoerst
05-09-2011, 08:20 AM
Thanks for asking. I hope to get to it today. Juggling kids and work sometimes doesn't leave enough time. :)

rfeiller
05-09-2011, 08:47 AM
Supermom! i have two daughters with 4 kids each and they each have full time plus professions, i don't know how they do it either. i just get exhausted watching you ladies :)

urbanfarmer
05-09-2011, 02:33 PM
Supermom! i have two daughters with 4 kids each and they each have full time plus professions, i don't know how they do it either. i just get exhausted watching you ladies :)
Clearly, genetic superiority in some respect ;)

chrisfoerst
05-09-2011, 09:46 PM
YAY! I redid my siphon and it works. Thanks for all of the help. I modified the one from the Aquaponics 05 video. So far, so good. Now if I could just get those darn nitrites to drop!

rfeiller
05-09-2011, 10:17 PM
wonderful! with the bell siphon working it will quicken the nitrification cycle. check out my out door garden build. :D

chrisfoerst
05-10-2011, 07:30 AM
I would love to but where can I see it?

rfeiller
05-10-2011, 08:13 AM
You can go to portal to rfeiller's outdoor garden and rfeill's greenhouse revamp.

eskowronski
05-14-2011, 06:03 PM
Is it possible that your airline that is responsible for breaking the syphon is at or below your water tank in the bottom of the 2nd pipe? If so and you get enough flow from your circulation pump, it will NEVER stop...

Try shortening the tube and see if that helps...1/2" may make a big difference.

rfeiller
05-14-2011, 10:18 PM
eskowronski, take a look at the youtube video listed in this thread, it doesn't require an air tube and it doesn't follow allman's design. i have used the design shown in this two part video. they work flawlessly without playing with an air tube. :)

eskowronski
05-15-2011, 11:45 AM
eskowronski, take a look at the youtube video listed in this thread, it doesn't require an air tube and it doesn't follow allman's design. i have used the design shown in this two part video. they work flawlessly without playing with an air tube. :)

Will do...thx.

chrisfoerst
05-15-2011, 08:26 PM
Thanks Eskowronski, that may have been the case. I went ahead and redid the syphon without an airline tube and so far it's working great.

rfeiller
05-15-2011, 09:25 PM
made another bell siphon today, no adjustment works perfectly. this was a 3/4" standpipe with a two inch bell. also the two to one ratio bell to standpipe that is suggested so often doesn't seem to matter. 3 of the ones i have built are 3 to 1, the latest is 2" to 3/4" bell to standpipe. :D

these are the first bell siphons with the four large round opposing holes that i have made, the siphons break consistently.

urbanfarmer
05-15-2011, 10:49 PM
made another bell siphon today, no adjustment works perfectly. this was a 3/4" standpipe with a two inch bell. also the two to one ratio bell to standpipe that is suggested so often doesn't seem to matter. 3 of the ones i have built are 3 to 1, the latest is 2" to 3/4" bell to standpipe. :D

these are the first bell siphons with the four large round opposing holes that i have made, the siphons break consistently.
Picture? I am curious about your R&D!

rfeiller
05-16-2011, 08:33 AM
you know UF if i didn't know better with your new avatar i would think you are bragging, trying to make us old guys jealous! :lol: :lol: :lol:

sorry Chrisfoerst, couldn't help myself!