PDA

View Full Version : bright red on tillapia's lower jaw



WAbedroomponics
04-26-2011, 03:43 PM
my tilapia have bright red marks on their lower jaws and lower gills. what should i do to treat it and is there a cost effective way? and what is the illness if anybody has any idea of what it might be.

thank you soo much guys.
i love this forum

urbanfarmer
04-26-2011, 05:45 PM
What kind of Tilapia is it? Can you take a picture?

cedarswamp
04-26-2011, 07:56 PM
What is your water chemistry like? Any ammonia or nitrite? Is your tank fully cycled?High levels can sometimes cause redness on the fish. That would be the first thing I would check.

WAbedroomponics
04-26-2011, 10:25 PM
it is at school so i will try to get a picture tomorrow. I think the nitrate level is around 50 ppm. I don't know the ammonia or nitrite levels. What makes a tank fully cycled? I believe they are Mozzies. Thanks for the help guys i am freaking out lol

urbanfarmer
04-27-2011, 04:55 AM
The tank is cycled when enough of each bacteria have colonized your system and can provide the bio-filtration capacity needed for your system. Typically, we say it's okay when the ammonia and nitrite levels are near 0 after the initial dosage of ammonia.

I wouldn't freak out. One of the kids probably thought It'd be cute to put some lipstick on the fish. Definitely take a picture when you can! :lol:

WAbedroomponics
04-27-2011, 02:39 PM
heres some pics I took today I wasn't able to to do water tests yet

bcotton
04-27-2011, 09:14 PM
most cichlids can change color. Some drastically. It's usually to do with mating or territory or food.

I have about 22 mozambique tilapia in a 300 gallon stock tank. A couple of my tilapia turned almost completely red. They seem to be the largest two and the most territorial/alpha male type fish. I didnt think anything of the color change and they are much more red than your fish.

If i can get a good picture, i'll take one and post it for you.


brian

WAbedroomponics
04-27-2011, 09:57 PM
Ok thank you :-) but I have almost every fish in my tank with the red jaw thing and some are 10" some are 3" so it doesn't seem like it'd be a alpha thing

urbanfarmer
04-28-2011, 12:47 AM
I was thinking the same thing. I have had Tilapia turn completely black on me and they lived a healthy life until the day I ate them! :lol:

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 09:08 AM
Well the tilapia alot of them are swimming at a cant and the nitrate level is less then 10 and bio filter is working fine

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 10:23 AM
They are swimming at a fairly large cant is that normal or is something wrong .... There's 23 in the 100gallon tank

keith_r
04-28-2011, 10:30 AM
what are the ammonia and nitrite readings? what's the ph? temp?

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 10:40 AM
85Temp. I don't have any ph, nitrite,ammonia test that I can use

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 12:17 PM
After school today I will do some more water tests and post them when i get the results thanks everybody for all the help i am still pretty new but even my bio chem teachers have me look through the forum or ask for help we find it just so great there is a truly helpful place

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 02:50 PM
PH 6.6

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 02:51 PM
Nitrate less then 5ppm

cedarswamp
04-28-2011, 03:10 PM
WAbedroomponics, how long has this system been set up?

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 03:34 PM
Since late September early October

keith_r
04-28-2011, 06:01 PM
you need to test am and nitrites... high levels of either can be lethal
salt may help but it depends on what's wrong - if you do add salt, read up on it first! don't use table salt - caking agents can kill the fish

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 06:05 PM
I have marine salt that is for fish tanks but wouldn't it hurt my plants? I don't have any ammonia otlr nitrite tests i can't afford my own and the school says they are unnecessary because if there levels are high then nitrates would be high

urbanfarmer
04-28-2011, 06:13 PM
you need to test am and nitrites... high levels of either can be lethal
salt may help but it depends on what's wrong - if you do add salt, read up on it first! don't use table salt - caking agents can kill the fish
Some times I want to smack my palm against my face as hard as I can to numb the pain... ANYWAY, where in the world did you hear that? Do you have any proof? RESEARCH? ALL anticaking agents used in table salt for human consumption are safe to eat... MOREOVER, the most common anticaking agent is a FERTILIZER (in this case I am talking about Calcium silicate CaSiO3). Come on guys, at least check your advice before you scare the newbies into believing the retro hippy dogma FOLKLORE... I google searched that in under 10 second flat... seriously!!!

Step 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticaking_agent
Step 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_silicate
Step 3: Google search "Calcium silicate fertilizer"
Step 4: My eyes pass over link #2 that has organic fertilizer in the title, and I go straight for link #10...
Step 5: http://www.fertilizers.com.sg/calcium-silicate
Step 6: COPY/PASTE and REFERENCE


Calcium silicate can be very useful, especially when plants are under abiotic or biotic stress. Silicon may enhance soil fertility, improve disease and pest resistance, increase photosynthesis, improve plant architecture, regulate evapotranspiration, increase tolerance to toxic elements such as Fe and Mn. Soils found in warm to hot, humid areas, are subject to intense silicon leaching and tend to be highly desilicified, acidic, low in. essential nutrient elements, and on account of their acidity, high in soluble aluminum. Supplmenting soils of such with calcium silicate is an essential to promote plants mechanical and physiological growth and well-being.

At least feel honor bound to check your information at the door... COME ON GUYS!!!


CONCLUSION: THE USE OF TABLE SALT IN AN AQUAPONIC SYSTEM IS OKAY

WAbedroomponics
04-28-2011, 07:31 PM
But will adding salt to my system hurt my plants ? Because I know that I kill weeds in my yard by salting the area so would the same thing happen

urbanfarmer
04-29-2011, 04:20 AM
But will adding salt to my system hurt my plants ? Because I know that I kill weeds in my yard by salting the area so would the same thing happen
Well, if you add too much. The amount of Chloride required to protect from Nitrite toxicity is very small compared to how much is required to kill your plants (generally). But, I did not mean to imply that you should add table salt, merely that table salt in and of itself is not poisonous due to any anticaking agents... If you have a problem with Nitrite toxicity (and I'm not so sure you do) you need to add Chloride, I would recommend anything BUT salt because of the potential problems YOU can have. The amount of Chloride required is 1.5:1 where it's chloride:nitrite in the ratio (El-Sayed, 2006). Calcium Chloride would be a better option because it will act as a fertilizer and often calcium is in short supply for your plants!

FUN FACTS
Plants will actually consume the sodium (Na) instead of potassium (K), but that's a whole 'nother story...


Potassium deficiency can be greatly alleviated in the presence of sodium but the resulting sodium-rich plants are much more succulent than a high potassium plant. In some plants over 90% of the required potassium can be replaced with sodium without any reduction in growth. http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=t&id=289 (way at the bottom)

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SODIUM REPLACING POTASSIUM:
Chapter 4, page 62 (http://books.google.com/books?id=acQ-QEanvCgC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=plants+90%25+sodium+nutrient&source=bl&ots=-fd-tO2dHC&sig=-xRJ2m0ucou-_3L329_NVZmw6Kg&hl=en&ei=lZq6TZz-IcWWtwe1h-DMBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=plants%2090%25%20sodium%20nutrient&f=false)

ANYWAY, you get the idea. I'm not so sure your fish have brown blood disease (nitrite poisoning)... if you are truly concerned that might be the case, take one of the weakest fish and cut it in half. If it has really brown blood, then okay that is most likely the case.

REFERENCE (I just linked the other ones cause I'm too dang lazy right now...)

El-Sayed, A. F. M. (2006). Tilapia culture. Cambridge, MA: CABI Publishing.

keith_r
04-29-2011, 06:00 AM
wow.. you really are close minded.. you found what info you wanted to find..
there are several anti caking agents that can be used for salt.. Sodium ferrocyanide (as an example) will break down in sunlight to cyanide.. certainly harmful to fish.. many contain copper, that can be bad for plants.. some may be ok.. but again, why take the chance? use pure salt and avoid the risk, that's not trying to scare anyone, it's presenting facts...
good luck with your garden uf
fertilizers in the garden are a great thing.. but when there are fish in the mix (you seem to ignore that fact in many of your discussions) the equations change..
oh, and i'm not a "hippy", but name calling always helps an me win an argument too!
:shock:

urbanfarmer
04-29-2011, 04:52 PM
wow.. you really are close minded.. you found what info you wanted to find..
That's hypocritical though... because you haven't stated anything about sodium ferrocyanide... you basically just want me to assume it's bad for you and me and the fish just because YOU SAY SO? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. What makes you the authority on anything and everything? Post some references for God's sake. :cry: Moreover, I do not just find information to suit my needs... If I was hasteful in my research, it was because I felt that my minimal research outweighed your nonexistent research! Anyway, it is mind boggling you would say that after all my thorough posts... perhaps you can find a reason to why you said that within yourself! :mrgreen: You can question my research or my information in any way you like, but don't question my character irrespective to how I conduct myself as evident on this forum.


there are several anti caking agents that can be used for salt.. Sodium ferrocyanide (as an example) will break down in sunlight to cyanide.. certainly harmful to fish.. many contain copper, that can be bad for plants.. some may be ok.. but again, why take the chance? use pure salt and avoid the risk, that's not trying to scare anyone, it's presenting facts...
good luck with your garden uf
fertilizers in the garden are a great thing.. but when there are fish in the mix (you seem to ignore that fact in many of your discussions) the equations change..
oh, and i'm not a "hippy", but name calling always helps an me win an argument too!
:shock:
You keep posting information as if they are words that poured out of God's mouth!!! OKAY?!? So, I was a bit upset when I posted that, and in retrospect I feel I went a bit too far calling you a hippy. SO SORRY! :cry: I will replace it with FOLKLORE.

I admit I don't know as much on the aquacultural side as I do on the botanical side of things (I just ordered books from the library, most of which are to remedy this exact problem, LOL)... however, I try to state SPECIFIC information or research that discusses EXACT CONCENTRATIONS OF TOXICITY LEVELS whereas you do not even attempt to provide ANY information... I realize that a lot of times you are presenting "commonly accepted" information from the aquaponics community or in some cases it may seem I am wrong because you may have a limit to your own knowledge (especially since a bulk of it may be anecdotal), but that is one of the reasons I speak up... I'm not asking you to BELIEVE me, I am asking you to sort through the VAST AMOUNTS OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION out there and see FOR YOURSELF.

How many books, research papers, dissertations, articles have you read in the pursuit of more knowledge in aquaponics? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? I have. I am dedicating my career to aquaponics (well aquaponics is integrally tied to my real goal which is saving lives). I am going back to school for a Masters in Environmental Science, WATER AND SOIL, with an emphasis on sustainability. After that it's either med school or pharmaceutical school (I still have time to make a final decision, partially determined by my MCAT/PCAT scores). I think you see where I am going with this...

I have a lot of love for this community, and I consider it my home. There are many aquaponic communities out there, but since this is mine I have as much pride in it as I do myself. I don't care what all the other folklore based communities have to say, I want everyone here to have the Truth about aquaponics. If you don't want to hold hands down this bumpy road, then so be it.

BACK TO THE SALT...

First, I just want to reiterate that my last post showed the most commonly used anticaking agent is in fact a simple and safe fertilizer.

I'm not sure on the accuracy of this website, but it shows foods associated with additives, and it shows that additive is not even used today. http://www.additivesinfood.info/

This paper explains the additive in detail. As someone that understands something about chemistry, I can only say that cyanide and this chemical are unbelievably different. Why anyone would assume they would behave the same in metabolic pathways in either fish, humans, or plants without a shred of evidence is beyond me... the paper below implies this as well.
on the safety of Sodium ferrocyanide user as anticaking agents (European Commission) (http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scan/out70_en.pdf)

Human Health Effects & Human Toxicity Excerpts (MORE OF MY MUMBO JUMBO SCIENCEY STUFF):
SEVERAL GRAMS HAVE BEEN SWALLOWED REPEATEDLY BY WOULD-BE SUICIDES WITHOUT APPARENT ILL-EFFECT.
[The Merck Index: An Encyclopedia of Chemicals and Drugs 8th ed. Rahway, New Jersey: Merck and Co., Inc., 1968., p. 958] **PEER REVIEWED**

BECAUSE OF STRONG CHEMICAL BONDAGE BETWEEEN THE CYANIDE GROUP & THE IRON, FERROCYANIDES HAVE A LOW ORDER OF TOXICITY. LOW=CAUSES READILY REVERSIBLE TISSUE CHANGES WHICH DISAPPEAR AFTER EXPOSURE STOPS. CAUSES SOME DISCOMFORT.
[The Merck Index. 9th ed. Rahway, New Jersey: Merck & Co., Inc., 1976., p. 1114] **PEER REVIEWED**

SUMMARY TOXICITY STATEMENT; ACUTE... FERROCYANIDES AS SUCH ARE OF LOW ORDER OF TOXICITY. LOW=CAUSES READILY REVERSIBLE TISSUE CHANGES WHICH DISAPPEAR AFTER EXPOSURE STOPS. CAUSES SOME DISCOMFORT.
[Sax, N.I. Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials. 5th ed. New York: Van Nostrand Rheinhold, 1979., p. 367] **PEER REVIEWED**

Reported Fatal Dose:
3(?). 3= MODERATELY TOXIC: PROBABLE ORAL LETHAL DOSE (HUMAN) 0.5-5 G/KG; BETWEEN 1 OZ & 1 PINT (OR LB) FOR 70 KG PERSON (150 LB). NO ADEQUATE TOXICITY DATA WERE LOCATED, BUT APPARENTLY THE SODIUM & POTASSIUM SALTS ARE COMPARATIVELY BENIGN. THEY ARE NOT DECOMP'ED TO CYANIDE.
[Gosselin, R.E., H.C. Hodge, R.P. Smith, and M.N. Gleason. Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products. 4th ed. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1976., p. II-97] **PEER REVIEWED**

ADDRESSING THE STIGMA (feelings of fear not based in reason or science):
Lastly, I want to point out that cyanide is made of 1 carbon atom and 1 nitrogen atom. Again, the chemical combination is entirely relevant, but these are 2 chemical elements we find in vast quantities in our systems already. Is the fear from the word CYANIDE? Please, if you have ANY information to share, SHARE IT. If I am wrong, SO BE IT. I want the Truth, but if you can't support your claims it's nothing more than FOLKLORE. GET THAT CRAP OUT OF HERE.

I like you very much, and I wish you to continue posting in any manner you choose. Just please don't spread the folklore to our NEW members. It's twice as much work to re-teach them later, and you know someone will have the pleasure of that discomfort. Regardless, you CHALLENGE ME TO LEARN, and for that, I like you very very much. (sincerely) :mrgreen:

urbanfarmer
04-29-2011, 05:27 PM
P.S. Sorry you to derail your topic a bit WAbedroomponics... I still don't think you should treat with table salt as we have not diagnostically determined a nitrite toxicity which would cause brown blood disease. That is what the salt would be for, and we just aren't there yet. As I mentioned before, you CAN cut one open and check it's blood. If it's brown, then that's definitely a high possibility. How are the fish looking?

keith_r
04-29-2011, 05:49 PM
look.. i'm not trying to get in a pi$$ing match with you, so i won't..
my point is basically the same as yours.. before you do anything to "help" your system, look for info.. there's so much out there it can be confusing..
finding it on your own can be empowering

maybe i am a hippy? :ugeek:

actually.. i grew up in the 70's.. we "lost the values but kept the weed"...

:mrgreen:

urbanfarmer
04-29-2011, 05:52 PM
Well, sir... that is my point... so... OKAY!

I actually DO like it when you challenge me to research something, but sometimes I wish you would take your own advice!!!

Hey, I seriously meant nothing by the hippy comment, and I sincerely wish they would legalize it... that's a different story for a different forum!!! :lol:

cedarswamp
04-29-2011, 05:59 PM
Anti caking agents are for the most part insoluble (that's why they are anti caking :D ), and tend to cloud the water if left to accumulate.

I'll pass, I like purty water. :lol:

urbanfarmer
04-30-2011, 04:25 PM
It wouldn't add to the turbidity. Well, I can't speak for every anti-caking agent out there without looking at it, but the most common Calcium silicate has a molar weight of 116 grams, which if insoluble would sink in water not stay suspended. AND, you are adding such a tiny amount of Calcium silicate (in this example) that you would get far more turbidity from a handful of dirt (seriously). Just sayin... :geek:

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923273

P.S. I still don't think salt should be added here; so, I guess it's a moot point :lol:

WAbedroomponics
05-01-2011, 12:06 AM
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923273

Calcium Silicate:

Ingestion:
Do not induce vomiting. Loosen tight clothing such as a collar, tie, belt or waistband. If the victim is not breathing, perform
mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Seek immediate medical attention.
Serious Ingestion: Not available.




doesn't sound good for an AP system....... or to eat..... or as that site said it also shouldn't be touched...... seriously sound like it shouldn't be in a food product lol

urbanfarmer
05-01-2011, 12:41 AM
Ammonia says exactly the same thing: http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Ammoniu ... de-9922918 (http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Ammonium_hydroxide-9922918)

That's pretty much a standard insert into their MSDS sheets.

“Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself” --FDR

Basically, if you drink fertilizer you deserve what you get... joking! :lol: Anyway, yes most chemicals have an acute toxicity in the human body. You wouldn't eat a pound of table salt, would you? How about a pound of baking soda? Sugar? I'm sure I can make a list a mile long, but you get the idea.

Anyway, it's perfectly safe in the low concentration it would be found from dosing your system with table salt to prevent or cure brown blood disease. :ugeek:

WAbedroomponics
05-01-2011, 01:22 AM
1 lb of sugar.... saddly yes i have..... when your a teen you do some real stupid s*** because somebody said they didn't think you could lol but luckily that was the dumbest thing i have done ( but saddly i must add this part) so far lol.... yeah if you eat fertilizer you probaly deserve to reap the ill affects lol

and of course this is for a pure substance and you get so little in salt it wont hurt you and the salt will hurt you before the other stuff will.... i bet it is like how the manual for my gun says "DON'T POINT AT FACE WHILE LOADED" which i disagree with it should say "come on point it at your face while its loaded" because who ever is that dumb should :D also on my bottle of sulfiric acid it says "DO NOT DRINK" i think if it eats through metal with even just a little amount you probaly shouldn't but i guess we dont want to leave anything to common sense anymore do we lol

urbanfarmer
05-01-2011, 02:45 AM
:lol: I can't believe I hit the proverbial nail on the head!!!

Yes, a lot of the stuff in those technical documents can really scare anyone. A lot of times the information needs to be understood in context, but I completely understand not everyone can. I just want help you be confident about the safety of certain things because most will make blanket statements that basically fall under the category of "better safe than sorry" when in actuality it's safe and not knowing that will make you sorry (well if your fish die or your family goes hungry)

So, back to the sugar. Did you get really really sick? What happened? Do tell!

rfeiller
05-02-2011, 09:24 AM
the concern with table salt was with the iodine. and this goes back to closed aquarium systems with accumulative problems. any exposed steel rusting was considered toxic. the tank's water was never changed just added too. it was believed that amber colored water (aged) was the best, nothing is farther from the truth.