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rfeiller
04-13-2011, 08:20 PM
i am not referring to adding a few red wrigglers to a grow bed, but where the worm bins actually become an active part of the system.

anyone working with this?

I have set up as part of a total system, 28-5gal buckets each in itself is a worm bin and each contains one plant veggie or flowering

urbanfarmer
04-13-2011, 08:28 PM
I don't understand. How do you have it connected to the aquaponic system? More importantly, why??

rfeiller
04-13-2011, 09:25 PM
additional nutrients and minerals. i will compare the plants those that have the added vermiponics with those that don't.
the vermiponics is on a drip from a 600 gal goldfish pond.

why not? :)

urbanfarmer
04-14-2011, 03:34 PM
I commend your creativity, but I don't think this is particularly efficient or useful...

...because you can get more growing space in terms of area by not having it in the system. Just use those containers on their own. Worm castings are AMAZING to grow in. (I am picturing your buckets sitting on top of gravel that could be used to grow something else).

You don't need Aquaponics if you have enough worm castings to give the plant root space to grow. On the other hand, I let my worms keep the solids from suffocating the roots of my plants. It works very well in my dirty system. When I inspect the roots I always find HUNDREDS of worms in the root mass and the roots look white and smell great.

badflash
04-14-2011, 03:48 PM
I haven't tried this, but I have posted about it. The worm bed is positioned above a recirculation system that feeds the plants. Add food to the worms and water liberally. The worm tea drops into the plant system. The key issue is lots of air so the tea doesn't ferment. I'll see if I can find the post.

badflash
04-14-2011, 03:51 PM
Bioponics (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?55-Bioponics)

urbanfarmer
04-14-2011, 03:57 PM
Oh, he means without fish! Yes, that makes sense now!!! Yes, this replaces the fish component with something else. Peeing is my favorite replacement because I pee every day and it's FREE!!! :-)

rfeiller
04-14-2011, 04:27 PM
No there are two hundred goldfish in the 600 gal pond. The only decent looking plants that I have seen have had suplimental nutrients. The worms are to replace the supliments

urbanfarmer
04-14-2011, 05:53 PM
My plants are fine, but I did freak out and use chelated iron... so that's kind of cheating, but to be honest it DID NOT change their appearance. The slight chlorosis is still there (I even foilar sprayed with a different liquid fert with no response over a week period), but it has not seemed to affect their growth, budding, or fruiting ONE BIT. I will probably never waste money on it again because the plants are growing too much. They have grown OUT of the grow bed onto the floor and trellis. I would say there is 300% more plants than there is space for them in the grow bed. About the same size of grow bed is being used up on the floor by a few tomato and cucumber plants... I have to keep adding trellis space... it's fun! :lol:

rfeiller
04-14-2011, 07:14 PM
the plants will receive just a little more fish water then they need so a small amount will return to the pond. i have everything from orchids to flowering bulbs to veggies growing in just aquaponics. possibly because the system has been up for just a few months the results have varied. the nitrates have been 40-over 80 ppm. The romaine lettuce was normal size a little pale but, not much substance (a raft system) 40ppm nitrates. i believe with a little help from their friends, the worms, the plants will do much better. using a basic aquaponic system, i want to find the amount of nutrients the worms can provide to bring the level of production equivilant to a good organic raised bed. i don't feel that this takes away from aquaponics, just maybe will improve the system.
it doesn't cost much to add vermiculture into the mix for a family that is in need of having good food. a lot of the waste that their family produces can be used to grow their worms. some of the nutrients produced by the worms can enhance quality of the veggies that they are producing.
my raised beds were 8'x16' x 8" high. to start i would fill them with horse stable shaving, manure, and hay 3' high. i would then seed the beds with redwrigglers within a couple of months the beds were level. i did not wait for the composting, the worms of course could not stand the heat, they would start at the outside and work their way to the center. these beds produced the best veggies i have ever grown, but it took a lot of room.

urbanfarmer
04-14-2011, 07:29 PM
Hey, if it works and you are having fun, don't stop doing what you're doing! :-)

rfeiller
04-14-2011, 09:19 PM
i want what i am doing to be the best for the time and cost invested, whatever it takes. without a doubt aquaponics as a system is unequaled. i believe it can be better. excess worms are excellent food for the fish, cutting feed cost. the perfect system is where it becomes perpetual, fish and worms feed plants, plants and worms feed fish, fish and plants (possibly worms very high in protein) feed caretakers. maybe a part of the system should be aquatic plants to supplement the diet of the fish, (besides duckweed), these same plants may also serve as food for humans. the possibilities are endless, the goal is to produce a system that will help us and others becomes selfsustaining. i take all of this very seriously.

urbanfarmer
04-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Humans eat duckweed, and in fact it's great in salads (not that I would know personally). Aquaponics is without a doubt very sustainable. I'm not sure about the context of your statement as aquaponics being unequaled. In what respect, and in comparison to what? I can think of equal ways to grow or even better. It also depends on the context. Anyway, food for thought (pun intended). I am glad to see you are so dedicated to aquaponics! :mrgreen:

rfeiller
04-14-2011, 10:25 PM
the focus is still on developing methods of helping myself and others to become more selfsuficient, with that success it will provide encouragement for them to push on.

i have seen commercial hi-tech hydroponic set-ups there is no way to equal their growth and product with bioponics or aquaponics that is a different world. we aren't using CO2 generators, DO injectors, high intensity lighting 12/12 to 22/24, we aren't using ultra filtration and RO when recycling the effluent, etc. We are dealing with a different segment as you know and in that arena aquaponics is it. meat and potatoes; ok, lettuce. better yet tomatoes, sweet potatoes, squash, and peas.

so back to anyone else experimenting combining vermiponics and aquaponics, a match made in heaven.

urbanfarmer
04-14-2011, 11:13 PM
I've seen hydroponic setups with less equipment than aquaponics. In fact, the most commonly used technology here in Florida has no moving parts or electricity. There is less start-up cost, operating cost, and it has a smaller footprint. The cost of operating the system is minimal and yields high profits. I believe some people even manage to do this organically. Again, it depends what the context is.

rfeiller
04-15-2011, 07:11 AM
A big plus for Florida residents is the weather. I have free access to all of the organic nutrients I can possibly use, I know they are out there, but that isn't self sustaining. A major problem is utilities.
I don't know at what point you consider a business profitable. To me a profitable business produces a decent income and strong profit margin for growth.
High tech profitable hydroponic systems are pulling five and six crops a year. Or as in the flower industry a continuous crop year round.

urbanfarmer
05-04-2011, 08:49 PM
Yep, the weather is not too shabby.

Yes, you can have a business model that requires all the bells and whistles as far as technology is concerned, but if you can do it without all the extra technology, why wouldn't you? I am a firm believer in low start-up cost and low operating cost, and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. Over 10 years of business EXPERIENCE and a fine tuned EDUCATION support my beliefs. But, to each his own! :mrgreen:

rfeiller
05-04-2011, 09:33 PM
urbanfarmer my plan is not to produce a high tech system for folks to fail with. this is not a business for me, i don't need another business. it is a way to become selfsustaining and that maybe i can help some folks get by a little better. what i am doing with my bucket garden and in the greenhouse is testing the limits in low tech for producing the best with the least. your responses sometimes are not relevant.
by the way i have been involved in several business over the past 46 yrs. becoming a general contrator in '70, commercially breeding fish over the years. when i was involved in college marine biology it was the dark ages even in the early 70's. Oh, i only sleep 4 hrs a night so i have been able to cram more than most in my years.

urbanfarmer
05-04-2011, 10:20 PM
I am all for low-tech :mrgreen:

larsmith217
05-19-2011, 12:56 PM
My plans are to 1) get worms growing healthy in a compost bin 2) move 'em over to a vermiponic system 3) start up aquaponics in the same system, with a few rainbow trout which I can buy from a fish farm about 20 minutes up the road form us. I'll take all the help I can :)

rfeiller
05-19-2011, 01:27 PM
I am not leaching out all of the worm casting nutrients, just enough to suppliment the aquaponics system. The goal is, and I will do this shortly, is to create a system where folks with a minimum investment can supplimently feed a family. Worms little or no cost, seeds a minimal cost, aquatic animals, if they can snag them out of a waterway great, but fingerlings of native fish are available at free or low cost. Very little cost to supplinent for iron or whatever. I am certainly doing overkill with my setup it's test beds.

rfeiller
05-19-2011, 01:34 PM
I personally haven't figured out a pure vermiponics closed system, I can't see vermiculture and water conservation in the same sentence. Worms are not crazy about being bathed in their waste. In conjunction with aquaponics this doesn't happen.

urbanfarmer
05-19-2011, 02:04 PM
I am not leaching out all of the worm casting nutrients, just enough to suppliment the aquaponics system. The goal is, and I will do this shortly, is to create a system where folks with a minimum investment can supplimently feed a family. Worms little or no cost, seeds a minimal cost, aquatic animals, if they can snag them out of a waterway great, but fingerlings of native fish are available at free or low cost. Very little cost to supplinent for iron or whatever. I am certainly doing overkill with my setup it's test beds.
Well if that's your goal, it's cheaper to go without the hydroponics portion! :mrgreen:

urbanfarmer
05-19-2011, 02:06 PM
I personally haven't figured out a pure vermiponics closed system, I can't see vermiculture and water conservation in the same sentence. Worms are not crazy about being bathed in their waste. In conjunction with aquaponics this doesn't happen.
My worms don't seem to mind it at all. I have a small plastic container filled only with worms poop and worms (they ate everything). They don't seem to care. Maybe it depends on the species/breed?

rfeiller
05-19-2011, 03:05 PM
How is their weight and reproduction? We are going for the best of all worlds here, not what gets by, big difference. I believe there is a place where the worms, aquatic animals and plants are all above average. Help us get there UF. Thanks

urbanfarmer
05-19-2011, 10:58 PM
How is their weight and reproduction? We are going for the best of all worlds here, not what gets by, big difference. I believe there is a place where the worms, aquatic animals and plants are all above average. Help us get there UF. Thanks
I just have them as pets on my nightstand... I can say this, I only put 6 in there to start (hand counted), and every time I feed them a strawberry or some small fruit, I can see hundreds of them. I have only had these guys about 2 and a half months on the nightstand. I have been raising worms for far longer than I have done aquaponics, but I have never really looked into the biology or science of it. I just feed them garbage and I collect the poop or sometimes feed a few to the fish to watch the action, nothing fancy.

They are pure bred red wigglers. I assume they're just run-of-the-mill genetics, also nothing fancy.

As far as what YOU are trying to do, I think you should be getting great results. You have 2 inputs that yield 2 outputs of nutrients for the plants. We know that we can do it from just the aquaponics; so, your plants should be going crazy. Before I started aquaponics I did something called "window farms" and I actually came up with a simple device that took worm castings as an input and then put the nutrients into the water. It looked something like the inside of a coffee machine (I used a coffee filter). It worked great. The plants grew and I didn't have to pay for hydroponic nutrients from the store.

Anyway, if you post some good pictures, design schematics, and a written explanation of your theories and practices, I could try to help you figure out what's going on. I am strong in the area of water chemistry and plant nutrients. Maybe put it in this thread or start a new one? I'm sure we can figure it out or improve on it??

rfeiller
05-19-2011, 11:02 PM
the red wrigglers i have today are not very large a couple of inches, they do their job. i have observed that they reproduce like crazy during rainy times, a lot of small white young. don't see this when the bed is just moist.

urbanfarmer
05-19-2011, 11:09 PM
the red wrigglers i have today are not very large a couple of inches, they do their job. i have observed that they reproduce like crazy during rainy times, a lot of small white young. don't see this when the bed is just moist.
Are you sure those are worms and not maggots? My guys seem to like it pretty wet. More than moist but less than drowning.

Reds don't get much bigger than a few inches.

rfeiller
05-20-2011, 08:34 AM
Lol no, they are not maggots I know the difference. Haven't you observed the egg capsule hatching? The newly hatched are translucent.

rfeiller
05-20-2011, 04:56 PM
I use to culture white worms years ago this was in conjunction with the red wrigglers. I suppliment the blended fruit/veggies with added yogurt.

As far as the set up; the lava is raising the pH from 7.3 to 7.9 will add a bin of new Zealand Sphagnum.

jcoop
05-20-2011, 05:47 PM
Good to know about the PH bump from the Red Lava, running out of funds to buy Hydroton and kinda looking for an alternate gb medium.

I like the idea of haveing worms in the gb, in Sacramento it gets real hot in the summer and I have lost two sets of worms to the heat. I would like to try the red wigglers in a gb when I get it going.

John

rfeiller
05-20-2011, 07:48 PM
I can work on the pH organically for the huge pile of money saved over hydroton. But that's up to the individual. A safe gravel was 5 times the cost. My idea is too find an economical aggregate. I would have preferred black lava but no one carries it anymore around here.
Yes penryn can get hot!

jcoop
05-20-2011, 09:01 PM
Does Black Lava have the same problems with bumping the PH? I am not buy the Hydroton new so that is helping a lot, but it is adding up. Will check with a couple local landscape yards in the area to see if they have the Black lava.

rfeiller
05-20-2011, 10:34 PM
red lava seems to be softer and a lot more dusting. black lava i found to be more stable. however the central systems that i have used red lava for nitrification in, handled banks of aquariums, it was not a closed system. water changes to the tune of 50% every other day. there was not time for an accumulation of alkalis, nitrates.

urbanfarmer
05-21-2011, 05:10 AM
red lava seems to be softer and a lot more dusting. black lava i found to be more stable. however the central systems that i have used red lava for nitrification in, handled banks of aquariums, it was not a closed system. water changes to the tune of 50% every other day. there was not time for an accumulation of alkalis, nitrates.
I think the black lava is typically real pumice versus the red lava is manufactured usually. I could be wrong, but that has been my experience with it.

rfeiller
05-21-2011, 07:48 AM
the red lava here is mined in Utah from what i understand. the red is just another form of lava heat, composition, and age. we have access to numerous forms and types of lava here in ca, unfortunately the landscapers prefer the red. supply and demand. everything is for max sales and need. i understand that, they just didn't ask me what i wanted, imagine that! :lol:

in some areas they may manfacture red lava I don't know about that. the whole western USA is covered in volcanos.

urbanfarmer
05-21-2011, 09:26 AM
Hm, I was just "told" by an aquaponics "expert" at a seminar type thing a while ago that some red lava rock is made from very toxic materials that would be dangerous in an AP system. It was probably folklore or hearsay, but it doesn't hurt to check what exactly IS your lava rock.

rfeiller
05-21-2011, 09:58 AM
Lava even naturally occurring I guess can be a wild card, natural or manmade I'll certainly go along with that. It's whatever was there when created.

rfeiller
06-16-2011, 12:18 PM
interesting note about tomatoes and end rot: the tomato plants in the greenhouse have no problem with end rot and they are just on fish nutrients not additives. the tomatoes forming from plants in the worm buckets and the squash have developed end rot. i added maxical to the buckets yesterday, we'll see how they do. i would have thought it would have been just the opposite.