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psymonkey
04-12-2011, 06:04 AM
From what I've read Pacu have an excellent growth rate 18 inches (thats 45.75 cm for you blokes out there) in about 6 months. The best part is you can feed them table scraps and vegetable waste. Has anyone tried them before? I plan on trying them out in a 15' x 50" aboveground pool this summer.

swamp creek farms
04-12-2011, 08:01 AM
yes i remember some one wanting to try them, ive never heard of them before, i read a thread on them here i think, stucco maybe the one to ask

badflash
04-12-2011, 05:22 PM
Really boney. Not much of a market in the US.

JCO
04-12-2011, 06:44 PM
Please go to your profile and put in the city and state/country where you are in case there are members close by. :mrgreen:

rfeiller
04-12-2011, 09:36 PM
the largest black pacu i've raised reach 26" (without tail) in less then a year it was in a large display tank. it was feed tons of trout chow. i know they eat them in the amazon. they like fruit, veggies, no meat. there are several species of pacu sometimes the red bellied paco is referred too as a false piranhas. we use to get real red bellied piranhas in those shipments.

rfeiller
06-18-2011, 07:55 AM
the pacu i raised were black, not red bellied and in nature they are herbivorious. everything eats meat directly or indirectly because of the insects small worms and crustaceans that colonize on their main food.

Basil1
08-05-2011, 06:34 AM
Fast growers, 2" a month to 12 inches then slows to about an inch a month. Produces a lot of waste. Will eat anything that fits in their mouths, including any hardware in the water and pond liners. Best feed is veggies, fruits and nuts. Mine loved carrots, romaine and anything else that fell in. Don't buy small ones from petstore, look around at shops that take in trades and in classifieds loke Craigs List. People looking to get rid of them all the time not realizing how fast they grow and the potential for destruction. Not called tank busters for no reason.

urbanfarmer
08-05-2011, 02:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacu#Food_fish

Theodore Roosevelt wrote of catching and eating pacu in his book Through the Brazilian Wilderness. He described them as "good-sized, deep-bodied fish," and noted, "They were delicious eating."

Today, the Amazon river is experiencing a crisis of overfishing. Both subsistence fishers and their commercial rivals compete in netting large quantities of pacu, which bring good prices at markets in Brazil and abroad.

Aquaculture may relieve the overfishing crisis, as well as improve food security by boosting fish supplies. Various species of pacu are increasingly being used for warm-water farm fishing around the world. Pacu are considered ideal for their tolerance of the low-oxygen water in farm ponds. They also don't require a lot of expensive protein in their diet, and can be raised year-round in warm or temperature-controlled environments.

Research shows that the "flavor of (farmed) pacu is comparable to that of hybrid striped bass, tilapia, and rainbow trout, but superior to catfish." In South America, pacu are prized for their sweet, mild flavor. Pacu have been introduced to the Sepik River due to overfishing.

urbanfarmer
08-05-2011, 02:48 PM
FYI: You need a permit to grow these in Florida, legally.

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/onestop/forms/15106.pdf

foodchain
10-27-2011, 02:36 PM
Okay I am game. Sounds like a great tank mate to tilapia. Similar water conditions, etc. The Sepik river ones have turned into being carnivores based on an episode of River Monsters I watched. I have kept them up to about 3 inches in the ornamental tanks, but never considered eating them.
While the big tanks/pools would work for grow out, can you spawn them? Or would it be more like the striper hybrids that you have to buy fingerlings every season? Or can you maybe handspawn them like koi and salmon? I am going to research this some, and see the feasability. TX gets cold enough you shouldn't need a permit. FL is probably requiring permits to reduce probable invasive species. Just a guess.

foodchain
10-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Found this on Buzzle.com
Pacu fish care becomes a herculean task when it comes to breeding them in aquariums. This is because of their huge size and prey hunting instincts. But commercially, they are a big success and are bred in massive fish tanks.

To breed pacu fish, the tanks must have a capacity to hold minimum 50 gallons of water for juveniles and at least 200 gallons of water for adults. The tank water must be filtered regularly and the temperature should be maintained between 23 - 28ºC. Also the pH balance of water must be maintained between 6.5 - 7 and the hardness up to 20 dH. It is recommended that fish tanks have enough hiding places as these fish have prey hunting habits. Juvenile pacu fish enjoys the company of other fish but as they mature, they tend to become solitary by nature. But generally, they have a mild temperament and get along well with other species like Oscar fish and Clown Knife fish. At times, pacu fish are also bred in indoor ponds.

Tonight I will see where I can find 50 or so of these. Any ideas please let me know.

Basil1
10-27-2011, 03:44 PM
Found this on Buzzle.com
Pacu fish care becomes a herculean task when it comes to breeding them in aquariums. This is because of their huge size and prey hunting instincts. But commercially, they are a big success and are bred in massive fish tanks.

To breed pacu fish, the tanks must have a capacity to hold minimum 50 gallons of water for juveniles and at least 200 gallons of water for adults. The tank water must be filtered regularly and the temperature should be maintained between 23 - 28ºC. Also the pH balance of water must be maintained between 6.5 - 7 and the hardness up to 20 dH. It is recommended that fish tanks have enough hiding places as these fish have prey hunting habits. Juvenile pacu fish enjoys the company of other fish but as they mature, they tend to become solitary by nature. But generally, they have a mild temperament and get along well with other species like Oscar fish and Clown Knife fish. At times, pacu fish are also bred in indoor ponds.

Tonight I will see where I can find 50 or so of these. Any ideas please let me know.

Here is an idea, don't. Whoever wrote that article is an idiot. 200 gallons will not even cover the first year of growth. Mine grew from 2-3 inches to 18-20 inches in about 6-7 months. They are called tank busters for a reason. And spawning works on an industrial scale in enormous ponds, not an aquarium. You would also have to hit all the stores in your area to find that many at once. Then they would just get more and sell them to others who would not be able to care for them and end up suffering or being released.

foodchain
10-27-2011, 04:13 PM
I would completely agree with you that they are not for the average aquarists who has a 50-75 gallon tank. Also, I am not considering putting these in a tank nor am I an average aquarist. I wouldn't intend to harvest these probably until about 25-30 inches long. I just relocated a 20 inch plus Oscar, and I find the larger fish are easier to work with. Example...Tilapia under about 3" are rather irritating as they constantly get caught in intakes, skimmers, jumping, birds eat em, etc. However the 12"+ are completly the opposite. I don't have the same problems with them jumping, though not sure why on that. They just don't. No problems with plumbing, birds don't eat them. Raccoons don't even mess with them at that size. And I can catch them on rod and reel when I want to eat one.
A little attention to detail and these could be viable.....for me. They are not for everyone.

foodchain
10-27-2011, 04:15 PM
P.S. They would all be eaten. This is not a public aquarium, they are here to be eaten. Just as my Tilapia, Channel Catfish, Flat heads, Bass, etc are.

Basil1
10-28-2011, 04:27 AM
I want to see pics of your pond big enough for 50 pacu and I desperately want to see a picture of a 20 inch oscar. Next to a measuring tape for proof. And if you are such an advanced aquariast, why did you need boggle to tell you about pacu? And repeat info you should know to be false.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 05:31 AM
How about you come and tour my facility? Consider this an open invitation.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 05:36 AM
Make that an open invitation for anyone interested. We are currently moving the Tilapia inside from the outdoor ponds due to cold front going through...so things are a little hectic. But I have nothing to hide.

Basil1
10-28-2011, 05:46 AM
How about you come and tour my facility? Consider this an open invitation.
Pics of your facility and the wonder oscar would suffice.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 06:26 AM
okay...what exactly do you want pictures of? I am in the process of creating/expanding a polyculture setup, primarily with freshwater prawns and Tilapia. I have been working with a proffessor in HI, and UVI as consults on every step of this operation. There's a lot going on. I have several species that I am working with though, and we are not just limited to the Tilapia or Prawns. What exactly do you want me to photograph that would convince you of my credibility and end this vulgar petiness? I came here to volunteer info, nothing more. The above info provided isn't innacurate, you should be able to keep Pacu at 200 gallons per adult. Why wouldn't you? Size is not the limiting factor so much as volume/surface area. Example: You can put more fish of equal size in a shallow large surface area aquarium/pond than a tall small surface area even though they are the same volume. Assuming all other factors are the same. This is true with most aquatic species. The greater the surface area the greater the gasious exchange.
Now I have already extended an open invitation for you to visit, and you won't. Now this is getting out of hand. So I ask again, as I am erroring on losing my patience. What exactly is it you want from me, so that I can prove my credibility?
Our large ponds are terraced, one flowing into the next. The lowest one being semi-submerged to aid in insulation and heat loss. For the warm water species, we keep them out doors 9months or so a year to take advantage of the climate. So, the Pacu would be possible, IF it can attain an edible size in 9 months +/-. Which by your above post IS possible, though more research needs to be done to determine IF this is due more to your warmer temps and longer season or to the food/environment you provided. This is a recirculating system, some people call it a "closed", I believe it is more of a semi closed system. Prawns take 4-5 months here to mature, I don't spawn them, but purchase post larvae and growout. Tilapia are a summer crop too, with us wintering over the breeders. There's no chance of escape into local waters as I am miles from a hyrdrologically connected body of water. NONE of these are sold/purchase by anyone. This is a personal operation, personally financed, and until I work the bugs out is nothing more than an expensive hobby that I HOPE to make something of someday. I came here to share what small amount of knowledge I have that I have accrued over years of mistakes. Do the math, I am 32 now, breeding fish since 6 years old = 26 years. I suppose you want a picture of the Pineapple Sword tail I bred at 6? Utterly insulting. I came here in the hopes that it might help a newer adict to this hobby be less of a fish killer than I was when I started. And to learn something that someone else might no better than I, as GOD knows I don't know it all. But this is going south very quickly. I have knowledge I can share, that I have learned from making a lot of mistakes.....for instance Vitamin C can be used for removing chlorine from normal tap water, bypassing the expensive dechlorinators from the retail store. I have the doses for doing that, and have USED it myself to know that it's not just BS. Garlic can be used for inducing feeding in new arrivals or recovery of fish that don't want to eat. As well as fighting infections/disease as it boosts the imune system. Hard to spawn fish can be induced when nothing else works by taking water from tanks that fish readily spawn and mixing it with the non spawner water. There's a hormone or something in the water that tells the non spawners to get busy. OR you can order a hormone extract but most of those don't really work and are expensive. I know, I have done it. This does. I do not appreciate your excessively aggressive and condenscending approach. I came here to volunteer, to help...and I am utterly astonished at your conduct. So...one last time, since you insist on pushing this issue and won't grace us with your presence, what EXACTLY do you want a picture of?

foodchain
10-28-2011, 06:39 AM
I would be more curious about WHY a fish that is a reported vegetarian has gone to being a carnivor in the Sepik river, and attacking people. And WHY a peacefull, vegetarian fish exhibits prey hunting habits?
Multiple sites, courtesy of google repeat the above statements. So why? Is it possible that they are more along the lines of targets of opportunity? Similar to catfish who eat anything that doesn't seem to eat them first. If someone has more info, or insight along these lines I would greatly appreciate hearing from you.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 06:41 AM
Basil1, as I previously stated. The Oscar was relocated...as in I no longer own it. I traded it out for a beer fridge for my garage. I don't want to eat Oscars, though I am sure some people do. And keeping my beer cold was more important. And NO it's not a WONDER, they commonly attain that size provided food and room to grow.

keith_r
10-28-2011, 07:07 AM
sounds like you're doing quite a bit, wish i could visit, but my traveling days are somewhat limited..

i don't think anyone was trying to disrespect you.. but i do know, we all like pictures.. (i've been quite slack in that area myself)

best of luck!

foodchain
10-28-2011, 07:21 AM
Okay, I can understand that. A picture is worth a thousand words. And via online pics are sure cheaper than air fare.
So how can I help? I am an open book here. What do you want to know?
Oh, and as for the GB I am using simple white gutters. Some say "too shallow". And that's not quite accurate. Plants like strawberries, have very shallow roots, and really appreciate being hot. The more sun and heat the sweeter the berry. Hydroton is the bed material, and it's set up as combination of the ebb and flow and the river bed. The gutters are secured between vertical posts, but with a grade. A series of float switches turn the pumps on and off. Allowing the roots to get wet, and air out. This may not be the "best" way. But I have over 100 ft of gutters, and it works for me. This works good for basil, and lettuce as well. Come spring, I will try pumpkins and grapes.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 07:27 AM
The hydroton keeps the bacteria and such going, which is great. But sucks for water clarity as it always seem to have dust particles and such coming off. To fix this...and I am super cheap, some call it ghetto...but anyway. I went to walmart and bought the NON biodegradable quilt batting. Like a $1.50 yard. Before returning to the pond, the water is pumped over the batting and it picks out the larger particles. When it stops working, rinse it out. Can reuse it several times before having to replace it. Cheap/easy and it works. How often you change it depends on how nasty your water is.

keith_r
10-28-2011, 07:35 AM
i was thinking of trying that for some filtration material..
i'm just starting to plan my larger indoor system, i've had an 8' kiddie pool full of water in the basment next to my "ap system" so i just had to throw minnows and crayfish in, but the pool will be my main fish tank when i get going..
after the yellow perch and bluegill move into the big system, i'll have five 55 gallon glass fishtanks, and one 120 gal glass tank to play mad scientist with..
right now i'm thinking 1 daphnia/green tank (to feed the minnows) 2 minnnow/crayfish tanks, one tank for baby minnows, and one tank for breeding the crayfish.. that still leaves me two tanks, so maybe glass shrimp in one.. and maybe fingerlings for the big system in the big glass tank..
i'm in northeast ohio, we had our first hard frost last night... last winter the temps in the basement tanks never really got below 65, not too cold, but not warm enough for many fish.. i'm enjoying working with "local" fish and inverts.. every system is a challenge, but my wife thinks this is the best hobby i've had..

foodchain
10-28-2011, 07:43 AM
You are very lucky to be able to have perch. The Yellow Perch is dissapearing in the great lakes area. I was born and rasied in the NW, hung out at the salmon hatcheries with my dad as a kid. Anyways, I learned about the perch from him and still recall catching them. Too warm here.
Stick with the perch. Easy to breed but will eat crays when big enough. They are a little slow growing though compared to warm water. Cold water holds more disolved oxygen and the metabolisms of most cold water fish are slower so you can pack more of them into the same area.
Being a shallow pool, with huge amount of surface area, you can really do a lot. You can also run trout in there, but rainbows and cutthroats are prone to jumping so you would need to put egg crate down as a safety lid. Which you may want to anyway, as it protects the fish from having things accidently dropped in there. My little ones are always "helping".
To make more perch faster, try an air powered egg tumbler. The african cichlid sites and google have several DIY options. TX won't let me do it yet, so I am looking at investing in another facility. But I am almost ready for paddlefish.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 07:44 AM
and WHEN, however far down the road that is, that I am able to do that, I most definetly will be doing the Yellow Perch as well. Nice sweet, white, flaky meat. Just got alot of bones.

Basil1
10-28-2011, 08:07 AM
Basil1, as I previously stated. The Oscar was relocated...as in I no longer own it. I traded it out for a beer fridge for my garage. I don't want to eat Oscars, though I am sure some people do. And keeping my beer cold was more important. And NO it's not a WONDER, they commonly attain that size provided food and room to grow.

That's what I want a pic of, and proof to backup your claim of this being a common size. Never seen one hit the 14-16 inch size some sites claim, 12 inches generally being the max under ideal conditions.

As to my "aggressive attitude" as you put it, just asking for proof of your claims as you just jumped in as an expert, giving advice on two year old threads and quoting facts about fish that are extremely common from the first website you run across. Do some research on them yourself.

If you are really as knowledgable as you state, then I apologize and welcome. But be prepared to back up your statements with more than a random website.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 08:20 AM
Never said I was an expert. Just not the average aquarist. And this is not the first website I have come across.
I can't give you a pic of the oscar, as I no longer own it. I have made this abundantly clear.
Would a pic of a comparable tilapia work for you?

foodchain
10-28-2011, 08:44 AM
I will get you pics of whatever it is you want...as long as I still am in possesion of it. Considering the situation, I feel that this is more than tolerant on my behalf.
You decide if I am an expert or not, I never claim to be....I don't have a definable definition of it to fall back on. What I can tell you, is that I know what I am doing with MY operation, the parts I don't I am actively researching. What I do, and how I do it are probably not the best. BUT IT WORKS....so who are you to tell me I am wrong, or otherwise don't know what I am talking about? You know me from what? A one page rant? Get stuffed is the first response that comes to my mind. I am very well tempted to tell you to find your own solutions. But that would be counter productive to what I am trying to provide to this board.
What I do have though, is plenty of evidence that the Pacu is viable if you have room for it, and the skill/ability to make it work. This is something that is backed by scientific fact.
Locals insisted I couldn't keep a 3 ft nurse shark either. But I did.
No I don't have a pic of it, it was years ago, and it was donated to a public aquarium when I grew tired of the increased electrical bills, and the increase costs in making salt water. My point is, just because a book sais you can't, doesn't mean you can't...just means that to the best knowledge of the author there's no way to do it. I grew up reading that the neon tetra couldn't be bred in captivity, yet here we are today with it being bred like crazy. My point is in all of this discussion, is that it's inappropriate to jump to conclusions on anything, regardless if its what someone sais, has or believes if you will not do your own research or ask the appropriate questions. Attacking first only gets you the Hawaiian Good Luck symbol. You're here because you ask questions, and you want to learn/discuss what works and doesn't in an effort to dispell the misinformation out there. What I say works for me. I don't know if it will work for you or not. And most of it I can't tell you why it works. I can theorize, but that's about it. I am not a biochemist. That's why I ask two universities the parts I need help with. That's why I email Travis Hughes....I don't know it all. But what I do know, I know because I did it, and probably killed a crap load of fish learning it. IF my explanations are inadequate for you, a non-moderator, than that's unfortunate, but ultimately TOO BAD. I have already answered some quandries for some people here. My answers were good enough for them. Your arrogance is appalling. I would prefer it, if you would leave me alone. You have nothing to say that I want to hear. I am usually not this blunt, but I have had enough. Please understand....you are offensive. Thank you.

Basil1
10-28-2011, 12:06 PM
I will get you pics of whatever it is you want...as long as I still am in possesion of it. Considering the situation, I feel that this is more than tolerant on my behalf.
You decide if I am an expert or not, I never claim to be....I don't have a definable definition of it to fall back on. What I can tell you, is that I know what I am doing with MY operation, the parts I don't I am actively researching. What I do, and how I do it are probably not the best. BUT IT WORKS....so who are you to tell me I am wrong, or otherwise don't know what I am talking about? You know me from what? A one page rant? Get stuffed is the first response that comes to my mind. I am very well tempted to tell you to find your own solutions. But that would be counter productive to what I am trying to provide to this board.
What I do have though, is plenty of evidence that the Pacu is viable if you have room for it, and the skill/ability to make it work. This is something that is backed by scientific fact.
Locals insisted I couldn't keep a 3 ft nurse shark either. But I did.
No I don't have a pic of it, it was years ago, and it was donated to a public aquarium when I grew tired of the increased electrical bills, and the increase costs in making salt water. My point is, just because a book sais you can't, doesn't mean you can't...just means that to the best knowledge of the author there's no way to do it. I grew up reading that the neon tetra couldn't be bred in captivity, yet here we are today with it being bred like crazy. My point is in all of this discussion, is that it's inappropriate to jump to conclusions on anything, regardless if its what someone sais, has or believes if you will not do your own research or ask the appropriate questions. Attacking first only gets you the Hawaiian Good Luck symbol. You're here because you ask questions, and you want to learn/discuss what works and doesn't in an effort to dispell the misinformation out there. What I say works for me. I don't know if it will work for you or not. And most of it I can't tell you why it works. I can theorize, but that's about it. I am not a biochemist. That's why I ask two universities the parts I need help with. That's why I email Travis Hughes....I don't know it all. But what I do know, I know because I did it, and probably killed a crap load of fish learning it. IF my explanations are inadequate for you, a non-moderator, than that's unfortunate, but ultimately TOO BAD. I have already answered some quandries for some people here. My answers were good enough for them. Your arrogance is appalling. I would prefer it, if you would leave me alone. You have nothing to say that I want to hear. I am usually not this blunt, but I have had enough. Please understand....you are offensive. Thank you.
Since you don't want to back up your claims, I find your rants and accusations offensive. Go get stuffed yourself. Will be happy to leave you alone, except when you pass on bad information as fact. And no, a comparable tilapia is not the same as a supposed 20 inch oscar. Good luck with that two university thing. As for attacking first, I responded to your question on pacu. But since you are an expert on all things fish, how dare I, someone who has owned and raised them from people too stupid to admit they could not take care of one let alone 50, presume to give you any advice. So I will bid you good day and not say anything more about you as I cannot in good conscience say anything good about you.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 12:30 PM
You are the only one calling me an expert.
How can I photograph something I don't have anymore?
The Pacu have been ordered. They will be wintered over in (3) 325 gallon tanks and released to ponds in the spring as it's currently too cold. They are supposed to be one inch.
I have kept them before, but not over about 3 inches, as previously stated. You have according to your post. So in this matter you know more than I. To pacify you, I can keep a photo journal on this. If you use a larger than 75 gallon tank, and use good feed and keep them clean, Oscars will get bigger. Get a bigger tank, and see for yourself. Don't tank my work for it.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 12:31 PM
PS. My claims are backed up. What flight are you on? I will meet you at the airport.

foodchain
10-28-2011, 12:34 PM
PSS. Tilapia aren't supposed to get as big as I have them. Doesn't change the fact that I have them, and offered you pics too.
I don't suppose you beleive I have massive catfish either? Still believe these are in tanks, come on man....it's pretty clear by now these are not indoors.

davidstcldfl
10-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Since there is a 'plublic bickering match' going on....I'll post this WARNING in public too.
STOP THE BICKERING !

This is how this site works...or my understanding....Share what you yourself have done or tried, or are doing. If you make claims to something unusual, be prepared to back your claims...especially with pictures.
Then again, pictures aren't like they used to be. They can be photoshop...they may not even be your 'own' pictures.

If 'you' make a statement or a claim.....and the 'other guy' doesn't believe you. That's OK...he has the right to his opinion. If it hurts 'your feelings'....you'll be OK, really.

If you 'heard' or 'read about' something other then what you personally have done, that is different or unusual.... state that. We can have a discussion about it too.

When your new to this site, be on your best behavior, just like you would when your a guest in someone's house for the 1st time.
Give folks a chance to get to know you....even if you are an 'expert'.