Plant PPMs & Nh3/Nh4 PPMs

[wh33t]

Quick questions.

I have a very nice (if I do say so myself) Tri-Meter that can measure water temp, ph and ec/ppm/cf. I also have an Ammonia nh3/nh4 test kit. I have taken readings from both and I'm pretty sure I understand what is going on, but I wanted to ask some pro's and make sure.

My nh3/nh4 test kit reports I'm sitting around 1ppm of Ammonia. That's what this kit tests right? I presume that 1ppm is ok? The fish seem fine anyhow.

My Tri-Meter reports my PPMs as being 210 and climbing almost hourly. Does this mean the bacteria are doing their thing and food is now available for plants?

[keith_r]

you've mentioned ppms a couple times, parts per million of what?

[wh33t]

you've mentioned ppms a couple times, parts per million of what?

That's exactly my point. Of what? The Ammonia test kit reports 1mg/L which I believe translates to 1ppm. So what it's reporting I have 1ppm of Ammonia? Or nh3/nh4? I dunno.

My EC meter reports 210ppm. Of what? I dunno. That's what I was asking :D I presume it's 210ppm of nitrate plant soluble food :D

[urbanfarmer]

you've mentioned ppms a couple times, parts per million of what?

That's exactly my point. Of what? The Ammonia test kit reports 1mg/L which I believe translates to 1ppm. So what it's reporting I have 1ppm of Ammonia? Or nh3/nh4? I dunno.

My EC meter reports 210ppm. Of what? I dunno. That's what I was asking :D I presume it's 210ppm of nitrate plant soluble food :D
Yes, 1 mg/L of ammonia/ammonium translates to 1 ppm of ammonia/ammonium, which is NH3/NH4. The NH3 in the water is what kills the fish, and the pH will give you an indication of how dangerous your level really is. You should not have 1 ppm in a system that is cycling and in proper balance. You should never see it go above 0.25 ppm. What is your nitrite/nitrate readings?

In Aquaponics, we don't really care too much about the "EC" reading or your TDS ppm, which is what that would translate to. The reason it is climbing probably has more to do with the fact you are throwing fish food in the water!!! LOL TDS... Total dissolved solids...

You are approaching this from a hydroponic mindset... although I happened to have just ordered a device like that, but in my case I am doing "research" in my AP systems... you really only need to know your pH after you know your system is properly cycling.

[wh33t]

you've mentioned ppms a couple times, parts per million of what?

That's exactly my point. Of what? The Ammonia test kit reports 1mg/L which I believe translates to 1ppm. So what it's reporting I have 1ppm of Ammonia? Or nh3/nh4? I dunno.

My EC meter reports 210ppm. Of what? I dunno. That's what I was asking :D I presume it's 210ppm of nitrate plant soluble food :D
Yes, 1 mg/L of ammonia/ammonium translates to 1 ppm of ammonia/ammonium, which is NH3/NH4. The NH3 in the water is what kills the fish, and the pH will give you an indication of how dangerous your level really is. You should not have 1 ppm in a system that is cycling and in proper balance. You should never see it go above 0.25 ppm. What is your nitrite/nitrate readings?

In Aquaponics, we don't really care too much about the "EC" reading or your TDS ppm, which is what that would translate to. The reason it is climbing probably has more to do with the fact you are throwing fish food in the water!!! LOL TDS... Total dissolved solids...

You are approaching this from a hydroponic mindset... although I happened to have just ordered a device like that, but in my case I am doing "research" in my AP systems... you really only need to know your pH after you know your system is properly cycling.

Hydroponics is all I know so far. :) Still learning.

Well my PH is 8.1 and I'm not sure what my NH3 reading is. How do I get that? All I have is the Ammonia Test Kit that measures NH3/NH4 but it doesn't measure them separately per say. I have two bottles of some liquids that I mix with 5ml of the tank water. I shake it and then wait 5 minutes and it changes colour. That's where I got the original reading of 1mg/L. How do I measure just NH3? My fish look great if that matters at all. The water is also crystal clear, and there is no smell.

[urbanfarmer]

Your kit is giving you a reading of the TAN, total ammoniacal nitrogen. Use this: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa031

Or I can do it for you tomorrow, but I am too tired right now. Also, notice that the amount of unionized ammonia in the water goes up by a factor of 10x for every point in pH you go up. Anything above 7 starts having a dangerous proportion of the TAN as unionized. This is the main reason I suggest to keep your pH between 6.8 - 7.0 in another thread.

[keith_r]

a sudden change to the ph can kill your fish, if you apply anything to bring it down, to it slowly..
my ph started high. right at the edge of both the low range and high range test.. but it eventually fell
get yourself a "master test kit", i found mine at a petsmart for about 24 bucks
the hardest part of starting a system is practicing patience
sorry for misunderstanding your ppm query..

[urbanfarmer]

For some reason, my pH drops NEVER yielded an accurate pH reading from my water!!!!!! I went through 2 kits 1 from Amazon and 1 from my local pet store. They did NOT yield accurate results. I bought a test meter/probe device, another pH test kit from the hydro store, and I used litmus (pH paper) from my biology class. What did I discover? The pH test from the "Freshwater Master Test Kit - API" does not work well to read pH. It does give a reading, but it was WAY off. ALL the other ways I tested it were very close to each other (never more than 0.2 pH off) whereas the API kit could be off by 1-2 points... and often times I noticed it would give roughly the same reading every time. It only seemed to change if the pH went above 7 or below 7. The reason that's interesting is because they sell those very cheap children's pH test kits that only read if the solution is acidic or basic... and it happens to be the same color as the API low pH test kit...

Anyway, enough of my ranting. The rest of the tests seem to work (not that I compared them, but they seemed to change when I intentionally introduced things like ammonia or nitrate into the system). Always have another way to test you pH. In your case, use your fancy hydroponic meter!!!

[keith_r]

interesting about the ph test kit..
i have an api test kit.. i tested my tap water straight outta the tap several times, and after letting it sit for 24 hours.. most times it dropped about .2 overnight..and was always a little higher than my ft water... but both the high level and low level test were always within .1
i'm sure i'll be improving my "testing" in both abilities and hardware over time

[wh33t]

Your kit is giving you a reading of the TAN, total ammoniacal nitrogen. Use this: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa031

Or I can do it for you tomorrow, but I am too tired right now. Also, notice that the amount of unionized ammonia in the water goes up by a factor of 10x for every point in pH you go up. Anything above 7 starts having a dangerous proportion of the TAN as unionized. This is the main reason I suggest to keep your pH between 6.8 - 7.0 in another thread.

So what I'm getting is that I should add in some PH down to bring it down to 7. But do this process slowly. Say .1 every hour?

[wh33t]

a sudden change to the ph can kill your fish, if you apply anything to bring it down, to it slowly..
my ph started high. right at the edge of both the low range and high range test.. but it eventually fell
get yourself a "master test kit", i found mine at a petsmart for about 24 bucks
the hardest part of starting a system is practicing patience
sorry for misunderstanding your ppm query..

No worries man! Thank you for responding with me.

[wh33t]

I read over the link that was posted for calculating unionized Ammonia. I think I understand what it means. I use my test kit to determine the TAN reading. My tan right now is somewhere between 1 and 2ppm. Lets say 1.5. So I look up on the chart (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServle ... d=16602117 (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getScreenImage&oid=16602117)) and do the math -1.5ppm TAN x 0.0590 ( Ph [8.1] & Temp [19C] ) - Note: There is no 8.1 or 19C on the chart, so I rounded up to be safe. The formula gives me a UIA reading of 0.0885. Did I understand the document correctly?

So am I in trouble? Should I start putting in my Prime solution (apparently it detoxifies nitrites and other harmful things), lower my PH with PH-Down, dump some of my water out or a combination of all three?

[keith_r]

don't add anything! especially "aquaria" additives without completely understanding all the ingrediants!
wait on feeding the fish as well, until someone here with more understanding of unionized am chimes in

[wh33t]

don't add anything! especially "aquaria" additives without completely understanding all the ingrediants!
wait on feeding the fish as well, until someone here with more understanding of unionized am chimes in

K, good advice :D

[urbanfarmer]

pH down can lower your unionized ammonia by lowering the pH. If you're at 0.0885 at 8 and you lower your pH to 7, it should be roughly 10 times less. Could you give me a reading of your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all at the same time? You want to make sure your system is cycling.

Here is an online calculator: http://www.petgoldfish.net/ammonia-calculator.html

24 Hour LC 50 (Goldfish) 7.2 mg/L NH3
Source: http://www.pestell.com/msds/Ammonium_Chloride.pdf

144 Hr for Goldfish: LC50 = 1.5 - 3.8 mg/L Ammonium metavanadate
Source: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/01470.htm

The longer the exposure, the lower the ppm for a high mortality rate.

[wh33t]

pH down can lower your unionized ammonia by lowering the pH. If you're at 0.0885 at 8 and you lower your pH to 7, it should be roughly 10 times less. Could you give me a reading of your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all at the same time? You want to make sure your system is cycling.

Here is an online calculator: http://www.petgoldfish.net/ammonia-calculator.html

24 Hour LC 50 (Goldfish) 7.2 mg/L NH3
Source: http://www.pestell.com/msds/Ammonium_Chloride.pdf

144 Hr for Goldfish: LC50 = 1.5 - 3.8 mg/L Ammonium metavanadate
Source: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/01470.htm

The longer the exposure, the lower the ppm for a high mortality rate.

I'm not sure how to give you a reading of Ammonia, nh3 and nh4+. All I have is my Ammoina test kit (http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Produ ... oductID=69 (http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=69)), which turns the water a shade of yellow or green. It's pretty imprecise, but I have deduced my reading is 1.5mg/L (1.5ppm). My ph is still rising. It's at 8.3 now, temp is 20C, TDS is reading 260ppm for what it's worth. I have basically stopped feeding my fish until I figure out what is going on.

Also I should add that I do have PH Down which was suitable for my hydroponic veggies (at least that's what the garden store told me). I am open to heavily diluting it and putting it into the tank if that's what you suggest.

[urbanfarmer]

Oh, ok. Well, the high pH is good for the reproduction of the nitrifying bacteria; therefore, you might as well wait it out. Monitor the pH daily until you see it hit 0 or close to it. You can then start feeding the fish again. This could take a week. If your pH gets over 9 you can add a little pH down to keep it from going too high, but it shouldn't keep climbing for no reason.

The hydro pH down is usually phosphoric acid, which has 3 speciations of itself therefore acting as a buffer. It's food safe; so, it's most likely okay to use in your AP setup. If you get me a product and brand name, I can try to hunt down the MSDS for you.

[rfeiller]

If you use an electric pH meter you have to calibrate it frequently with solutions of 4,0 & 7.0. Don't use litmass paper it is easily fouled with humidity. The ppm is used exclusively in hydroponics to measure nutrient levels. Primarily ppm of. Nutrients/minerals. And also used to measurer hardness of water. The ppm can then be converted to the German scale of DH. The try meter you have (I have one also) was compiled to measure the hydroponics parameters. With all of the suspended organics from aquaponics I do not use it as a system monitor for AP.

[rfeiller]

I do not withhold food during the cycling of the tanks, but do large water changes (50% per day) instead to control amonia levels this maintains the health of the fish.

[wh33t]

Oh, ok. Well, the high pH is good for the reproduction of the nitrifying bacteria; therefore, you might as well wait it out. Monitor the pH daily until you see it hit 0 or close to it. You can then start feeding the fish again. This could take a week. If your pH gets over 9 you can add a little pH down to keep it from going too high, but it shouldn't keep climbing for no reason.

The hydro pH down is usually phosphoric acid, which has 3 speciations of itself therefore acting as a buffer. It's food safe; so, it's most likely okay to use in your AP setup. If you get me a product and brand name, I can try to hunt down the MSDS for you.

The Brand Name is Advanced Nutrients. The PH dropped to 8.2 today :D maybe a sign that the bacteria are finally kicking in. I think I'd prefer to let the cycle do it's thing naturally as long as the fish can handle it. How long can I go with out feeding the fish?

[wh33t]

If you use an electric pH meter you have to calibrate it frequently with solutions of 4,0 & 7.0. Don't use litmass paper it is easily fouled with humidity. The ppm is used exclusively in hydroponics to measure nutrient levels. Primarily ppm of. Nutrients/minerals. And also used to measurer hardness of water. The ppm can then be converted to the German scale of DH. The try meter you have (I have one also) was compiled to measure the hydroponics parameters. With all of the suspended organics from aquaponics I do not use it as a system monitor for AP.

Yes, I have calibrated it many times. Also you should only use PH Calibration solution of 4 if you are expecting PH results lower than 7. For AP I think I'm going to use the PH 10 Calibration solution as it's pretty rare to have a PH of less than 7 in AP no?

[urbanfarmer]

How long can I go with out feeding the fish?
A week or two.


it's pretty rare to have a PH of less than 7 in AP no?
It's pretty common, and what is commonly accepted as a "good" pH for an AP system is 5.5 - 6.5.

[rfeiller]

depends on the condition of the fish if they are in good healthy full bodied then a few days will not kill them, but if they were feeders that you purchsed they are probably not in that great of condition. can't help it i've worked with too many fish. today when you buy the fish from places like petco and petsmart the fish are seldom in good condition.
since the nitrifying bacteria tend to attach themselves to an object including the sides of the container they will continue to multiply just as effectively with the water changes as without, the difference being the condition of the fish. gotta put in a plug for the fish. by the way plants do a fair job of obsorbing ammonia.

[wh33t]

depends on the condition of the fish if they are in good healthy full bodied then a few days will not kill them, but if they were feeders that you purchsed they are probably not in that great of condition. can't help it i've worked with too many fish. today when you buy the fish from places like petco and petsmart the fish are seldom in good condition.
since the nitrifying bacteria tend to attach themselves to an object including the sides of the container they will continue to multiply just as effectively with the water changes as without, the difference being the condition of the fish. gotta put in a plug for the fish. by the way plants do a fair job of obsorbing ammonia.

Does the Ammonia hurt the plants? Good to know the fish can go a while with out food. I'm gonna go 48 hours and see how it is.

[urbanfarmer]

The plants will start absorbing more ammonia over a pH of 7. At a pH of 8 they will take up a good bit of ammonia. Pet stores do not take good care of feeder fish. Recently, I saw a tank of feeders all going belly up because of the lack of care at my local Co Pet store... anyway, 48 hours won't be a problem since you've been taking care of them for a while.

[rfeiller]

yes i have actually found that plants do a wonderful job of utilizing ammonia, contrary to everything i have read.

[urbanfarmer]

You are reading the wrong stuff! Plants only need to use 5 ATP to absorb ammonia, but they need to use 15 ATP to absorb nitrate. In other words, plants are 300% more efficient at absorbing ammonia.

[rfeiller]

story of my life. :D :lol:

i have removed the 100gal res. and replaced them with 30-90gal aquariums. on one system with a 30gal tank with only(8)-2-3" gold fish feeding a fully planted 4'x4' grow tray the nitrates went above 40ppm (if you can believe api regents) so i removed the goldfish for over a week and saw no noticeable reduction in nitrates. i believe the plants are actually growing off of the ammonia. i was trying to determine at what point the plants actually "purified" (using that term very loosely) the water. or at least kept up with the production of nitrates. i feed the fish heavly to get growth out of them and to condition them to breed.
i can take an oscar (not from petco or petsmart but from a reputable breeder) condition it to a force feeding regimen and it will be over 12" and breeding in 6 months. as commercial breeders we do this with most species of fish. time is money.

in my own experiments using aquatic plants they seemed to utilized the ammonia first, nitrites second, and almost no nitrates.
in my commercial discus hatchery most of the tanks had a 50% water change daily. zero nitrates, zero ammonia and the amazon sword plants were huge. they absorbed the ammonia as fast as it was being produced by the fish. the breeders and young fry tanks were not on a central system.

i believe once i get it dialed in i will not have any nitrifying beds and will perform water changes to maintain almost zero ammonia & nitrates. i realize that one of the selling points is to save the water, by recirculating it. i'll use it on the 70 rose bushes. :D

[urbanfarmer]

WOW, those are some amazing results. Do you recall what the pH was by chance? Usually, ammonium uptake is good at over a pH of 7.

[rfeiller]

also contrary to a lot of beliefs about varying pH with fish depending on what i was doing with them the pH could have been as low as 4.0 or as high as 7.6. where the stress on the fish comes about is with the polution in the water. if the water is clean you can move them around from high to low or low to high pH without causing any harm to them. on a closed system i would NEVER vary the water's ph quickly. the reason for the pH changes could be to stimulate spawning by lowering the pH or to raising the pH to put the fish in a breeding rest cycle. a pH of 4 would be to stop bacteria or viral infections without meds. the plants were not removed from the aquarium regardless of pH. the water could have been pure RO with a rejection rate of 99.75% to full tap water 400ppm hardness with total alkalinity of 150ppm and a ph of 7.6. i only use GAC to remove chlormines in the hatchery. because of disease control, i always used lab nitrifiying bacteria to innoculate any system. i stopped using salt for any purpose when it proved basically worthless. (this of course would not be the case with fish that are accustomed to brackish water or with a high alkiline water such as africans from the rift river system, or several species of livebearers. if you want beautiful sailfin mollies go to saltin sea in so. CA.
excuse me for rambling, but there is seldom a one word answer. :)

[rfeiller]

i do believe that aquaponics is certainly a very good answer to world hunger. my brother, a friend and i are trying to put together a system that would provide a lot of the nutrition for a family of four. it is based on solar with a package of $200. the supplimental organic nutrients, some of the equipment will be donated by a friend that has a corporation he is a large provider of nutrients for soil and soiless farming, this includes hydroponics, bioponics, and eventually aquaponics when the additional nutritional needs are known to put together a formula specifically directed to aquaponics that will benefit the aquatic animals as well as the horticultural side. these systems and nutrients will hopefully be given to needy families that would be capable of maintaining such a system. his products are completely organic, full of good little critters.
my goal is to put together a system where neither the aquatic animals or the plantlife is compromised by a lack of proper nutrients, or enviorment. i am never satisfied with "that's good enough".

[urbanfarmer]

coooool...