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brent
01-11-2011, 03:33 PM
My system needs to be portable, since we have winter for about six months. I bring my fish in for the winter, so I will bring the plants in as well. I am looking at compact florecent bulbs for lighting. Does anyone know what kind I could use?

badflash
01-11-2011, 04:19 PM
I use shop lights with Daylight bulbs from Home Depot. I get the stainless steel shoplights from Walmart. The shoplight runs $16 and bulbs are $2 each.

dufflight
01-12-2011, 02:29 AM
I replaced the tin roof on the veranda with lazerlite. Keeps the house warmer in winter also.

jackalope
01-12-2011, 06:24 PM
I'd look carefully at the research on CFL's, as well as electromagnetic pollution when they are being used, and they give off toxic pollution including mercury when they break ..... not something I want around my grandchildren or in my fish tank ;0 And the long term research isn't in yet!

in this article:CFL Bulbs Have One Hitch: Toxic Mercury

"The problem with the bulbs is that they'll break before they get to the landfill. They'll break in containers, or they'll break in a dumpster or they'll break in the trucks. Workers may be exposed to very high levels of mercury when that happens," says John Skinner, executive director of the Solid Waste Association of North America, the trade group for the people who handle trash and recycling.

Skinner says when bulbs break near homes, they can contaminate the soil.

Mercury is a potent neurotoxin, and it's especially dangerous for children and fetuses. Most exposure to mercury comes from eating fish contaminated with mercury,
Some states, cities and counties have outlawed putting CFL bulbs in the trash, but in most states the practice is legal. Clik ;) (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7431198)

or this:Compact fluorescent light bulbs contaminate the environment with 30,000 pounds of mercury each year

Measuring the environmental impact of mercury use in a particular product is more complicated than you might think. Mercury is an essential element in millions of fluorescent lamps throughout the world, and as those lamps are thrown into landfill, the mercury can escape and contribute to air and water pollution. (It can easily leach into groundwater supplies.)

According to http://www.lightbulbrecycling.com, each year an estimated 600 million fluorescent lamps are disposed of in U.S. landfills, amounting to 30,000 pounds of mercury waste. Astonishingly, that's almost half the amount of mercury emitted into the atmosphere by coal-fired power plants each year. It only takes 4mg of mercury to contaminate up to 7,000 gallons of freshwater, meaning that the 30,000 pounds of mercury thrown away in compact fluorescent light bulbs each year is enough to pollute nearly every lake, pond, river and stream in North America (not to mention the oceans).

Clik ;) (http://www.naturalnews.com/021907.html#ixzz1AsDGwvr9)

Health Issues With Fluorescent Lights

According to a study done by the National Research Council of Canada, performed by Jennifer A. Veitch, Ph.D, fluorescent bulbs give a white and cool light believed to raise "stress hormone" cortisol and adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) levels. The study showed these levels rise within 14 days of consecutive exposure to this light. The excess of both ACTH and cortisol generates stress in the body.

<snip>

Compact fluorescent lights are a source of electromagnetic fields. According to the Canadian Initiative to Stop Wireless, Electronic and Electromagnetic Pollution, exposure to electromagnetic fields may cause loss of homeostasis and depression in humans.

<snip>

Most fluorescent light bulbs that contain magnetic ballasts generate a 120 cycles/second flicker. The human eye can only detect 50 cycles/second flickers and the accelerated flickering of a fluorescent light bulb can cause eye strain and mild headaches. The headaches may become severe, depending on the length of time you remain exposed to fluorescent lighting. According to the Australian Government's Department of the Environment, studies show that the flickering of compact fluorescent light bulbs can trigger migraine headaches in those who are prone to suffering from them.

There is also evidence that it may trigger seizures in persons who are epileptic, since my oldest son has seizures, we don't use these CFLs in our home! I haven't got the link right now, but if I come across it again, I'll put it in this thread.

After you read the complete articles listed above, there's much more to learn about these hazardous bulbs, just Google this - "compact flourescent lights" + toxicity

Just my 2 centavos ......

brent
01-12-2011, 09:33 PM
I guess it's all about what information you read. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... bulbs.html (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070518-cfls-bulbs.html)

I replaced the 8' floresents in my shop with CFL's. I figure I greatly reduced the amount of mercury in my shop.

urbanfarmer
01-12-2011, 10:27 PM
At my Home Depot they have shop lights for $10. It holds 2x 34 or 40 Watt 4' T12 bulbs. The bulbs are $1 or less typically. The metal is thin on the casing. I took mine apart and made a frame for 5 of these for a small table I had with the grow bed on top. Just get screws for sheet metal and some cheap untreated lumber. That came out to 10 bulbs, and if I recall properly it was 32,000 Lumens. The plants grew like CRAZY. Strangely, compared to my outdoor version of the same setup the ones indoors grew faster. I had an 18/6 day/night cycle indoors, which might be why it grew more indoors.

That was a huge concern of mine. What if the bulb breaks over the grow bed. I didn't have any problems with it and the bulbs seemed surprisingly sturdy; however, if I had the resources I would likely build a frame with some kind of glass in front of the bulbs to catch any breakage (or something like that).

I have had CFL bulbs just crack open on me while on. I would not use these directly over plants or water, but I would position the light in such a way that if it broke it would not drop into anything. I actually used those lamp dome things that are silver to help clamp it somewhere and aim it, and funny thing those reflectors contain lead. It's just a disaster waiting to happen... I never ate anything I grew there since it was just for testing... well except a few fish for taste testing... hm...

urbanfarmer
01-12-2011, 10:29 PM
I forgot to mention, but if you have the resources you can try the LED grow lights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7K24eBp ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7K24eBpVww&feature=related)

I have had little experience with LED grow lights.

rfeiller
01-12-2011, 11:35 PM
the led grow lights are very expensive initially. the first ones and some of those in production still are very poor. but they are certainly the future. low power demand, very long life, cool operation, and as you pointed out fairly clean. they have an added advantage of being color range specific which allows a lot of customizing in a system.

brent
01-13-2011, 09:03 AM
I love the idea of LED lighting. I see that they use different collors for growing plants. What colors are used for best results? They also don't give lumen ratings, which makes it tough to design something.

urbanfarmer
01-13-2011, 12:04 PM
Lumens are not relevant to plant photosynthesis although with specific wavelengths it can give SOME comparison among those specific lights themselves. The idea is that, for instance, a light that produces all wavelengths only produces 5% of the light needed for plants, which would make it ROUGHLY equal to an LED light that is 20x times weaker. This is rough because so many other factors are at play such as which chlorophyll are we talking about and at what stage of plant growth, etc, etc, etc.

Blue and red are the most important. For leafy greens like vegetables, get a mostly blue one. A lot of science still needs to be done to determine exactly what wavelengths are best, and it will likely vary between plants and even strains. The best thing to do is to save the seed from the best growers for your specific lights and use those the next season or clone the ones that did best. Farmers have done this for years (although the industry has bullied them into buying seed rather than using their own). Anyway, good luck and please keep us posted!

badflash
01-13-2011, 04:39 PM
The amount of mercury in a single bulb is tiny. The energy savings of a FL bulb over incandescent lamps is huge. On an environmental impact basis the mercury burden is way tiny compared to the impact of the energy.

As to LED's, they are years off being cost effective. They also do not last anyway near as long as they advertise, especially in a damp environment.

Get a stainless steel fixture, locate sources for cheap replacement ballasts and sockets, and go for fluorescents. CFL just don't have the area coverage.

brent
01-13-2011, 08:33 PM
Good thing I have time to figure it all out. I can start the plants under regular floresents like I always do. I will figure the rest out by mid september when I bring them inside.

badflash
01-14-2011, 09:23 AM
There is all sorts of discussions about the color of lighting that is best. Daylight bulbs have a lot of blue in them, while grow lights have more red. Green is mostly wasted as plants reflect that color. Standard soft white bulbs are more yellow. I've tried them all and daylights work the best for me.

jackalope
01-14-2011, 01:27 PM
As far as which florescent bulb to use, I bought "Sunshine" bulbs by Sylvania, I didn't see any great improvement over the "Daylight" bulbs that badflash mentioned. The "Sunshine" bulbs are about $6.00 each, and the "Daylight" are usually only a buck or two.


The amount of mercury in a single bulb is tiny. On an environmental impact basis the mercury burden is way tiny compared to the impact of the energy.
Isn't 30,000 lbs. per year quite a large impact on the environment? If it was safe, the gov't wouldn't have outlawed it's use in thermometers, switches, etc. but somehow it's now OK to use it in lightbulbs - so much for the EPA being there for our protection. The only thing they are protecting is Big Corporations!


Reason for concern: Mercury content

All fluorescent bulbs contain mercury, which makes their safe disposal an important issue for both public health and the environment.

In April 2007, members of the National Electrical Manufacturers Association committed to reducing the amount of mercury in CFLs. Effective April 15, 2007, participating manufacturers agreed to these voluntary mercury limits:

* 5 milligrams (mg) per unit for CFLs smaller than 25 watts.
* 6 mg per unit for 25-40 watt CFLs.
<snip>
Manufacturer profile
Three manufacturers dominate the CFL market in the United States: General Electric, Osram Sylvania, and Philips Lighting. Most CFLs sold in the U.S. are assembled in China.Clik ;) (http://www.pca.state.mn.us/index.php/topics/preventing-waste-and-pollution/product-stewardship/initiatives-in-minnesota/compact-fluorescent-lights.html?menuid=&redirect=1)
Did you know that it's considered hazardous waste? If a CFL breaks in an office in an industrial firm, it has to be cleaned up by a haz-mat team, but the EPA says that if it breaks in our home, it's no big deal ...... IOW it doesn't matter if it kills someone in the home.

Proper Disposal - What It Means And Where To Take CFLs When They Burn Out
Business and other non-residential generated mercury lights are subject to state hazardous waste laws and regulations that prohibit their disposal in the solid waste stream. CFLs and other fluorescent lighting generated by residents are exempt from these disposal restrictions. Clik ;) (http://www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?a=2708&q=378846)

badflash
01-14-2011, 02:05 PM
I've been using FL bulbs for much longer than it has been fashionable. I have yet to break one. The amount of mercury in a single bulb is very small and poses no hazard. If you are a klutz and break them all the time, the effect could be cumulative, just like eating fish that are ocean caught. All things are relative and I'm not going to stop eating fish just because they contain a little mercury. The benefits out weigh the costs.

As to the government, you think they are here to help us? NOT! They are here to help themselves. It is too tough to police individuals, far easier to shake down industries. I work at a Nuke plant, remember? Talk about silly. If my car drips a little oil on the pavement at the plant it also has to be cleaned up by the hazmat team. That hardly makes a little oil leak dangerous just because the EPA requires a ridiculous response.

We have limits on how much radioactivity we can release to the environment. If I were to get a thyroid treatment, come into work, and use the toilet, the alarms would go off and the entire sewer system at the site would have to be pumped out and disposed of as radioactive waste. It I just go home and flush it down the toilet, no big deal.

As far as bulbs go, dispose of them responsibly. My town has a recycling program that recovers the stuff and keeps it out of the landfills.

urbanfarmer
01-14-2011, 03:45 PM
All the T12 bulbs I have had are very sturdy and cheap (around $1 a bulb).

The CFL bulbs are the ones that seem to explode from the inside due to prolonged use. However, the only ones I have seen do this are the Walmart brand (or was it Sams). I bought a bunch of these 3 years ago, and as they come to the end of their life cycle they tend to explode. I have seen 3 of the 12 I have do this while some are still going strong.

rfeiller
01-15-2011, 11:32 AM
I can remember as a kid playing with mercury, all of us did. We collected it, I had a vile full of it.
Was that a good thing? probably not.
The biggest joke going today is electric cars. We can not do what we want to achieve without compromises. The color spectrum makes all the difference in the veggie, flowering, and fruit or seed stages. Basic FL can't achieve those results

brent
01-22-2011, 06:26 PM
So, is there a florecent that will work from start to finish, or will I need to change at the bloom stage?

badflash
01-23-2011, 08:19 AM
I've never changed colors. Seems to me the sun always looks about the same. You might need to monkey with day/night times in some species.

rfeiller
01-23-2011, 10:56 AM
Big gap between keeping them alive and optimal results, it's whatever meets your needs. All the professional research is available on the web. There is a huge cost difference in purchase price between professional lighting set ups, not to mention utility cost, and get by setups. this is the major consideration. When you ask what is needed to produce product it is a huge gap between they are alive and they are really productive.
Is an $800.00 1000 what HD light fixture with the $80 monthly utility bill, justified to grow a dozen heads of lettuce, heck no. Only if you grow expensive plants. Japan is the exception out of necessity and their desire to always produce the best quality possible.

brent
01-23-2011, 02:14 PM
I agree, there needs to be a balance between production and cost. There are alot of bulbs on the market(warm, cool, full spectrum, etc.). For the most part I can get any of them for relatively the same cost.

rfeiller
01-23-2011, 02:18 PM
You are fortunate!! :)
I can't

Rich

badflash
01-23-2011, 04:58 PM
You are fortunate!! :)
I can't

Rich

No home depots in your state?

rfeiller
01-23-2011, 09:22 PM
5 home dopots within 8 miles of my home and 3 lowes! but there is $6 dollars plus difference between the $2 bulbs T-12 and the plant T-12 spectrum bulbs. they do not carry the T-5 plant spectrum bulbs, the best price i can get as a contractor is $15 ea. and up depending on the light they produce. an 8 tube T-5 fixture designed for plants runs around $400 plus.


I agree, there needs to be a balance between production and cost. There are alot of bulbs on the market(warm, cool, full spectrum, etc.). For the most part I can get any of them for relatively the same cost.

i took that to mean he was in a position to purchase at special pricing.

rich

urbanfarmer
01-24-2011, 10:37 AM
$10 for the SHOP LIGHT fixture that holds 2 T-12 bulbs.

$1/$1.50 per T-12 bulb for 32/40 Watt bulb. It comes in a pack of TEN. Contractors get it even cheaper; this is the regular people price at my home depot.

Each 40 Watt bulb is roughly 3200 Lumens. I have grown quite well with 10 bulbs in a 2x4 area. It seems to work great. I used some cut 1x3 wood and metal chains to make a fixture out of it. I had to open the shop light and drill some screws through it to the wood. Very simple and effective. Good luck and take pictures!

badflash
01-24-2011, 04:19 PM
Try the plain Daylight bulbs. That is what I use. The grow lights are not worth it.


5 home dopots within 8 miles of my home and 3 lowes! but there is $6 dollars plus difference between the $2 bulbs T-12 and the plant T-12 spectrum bulbs. they do not carry the T-5 plant spectrum bulbs, the best price i can get as a contractor is $15 ea. and up depending on the light they produce. an 8 tube T-5 fixture designed for plants runs around $400 plus.


I agree, there needs to be a balance between production and cost. There are alot of bulbs on the market(warm, cool, full spectrum, etc.). For the most part I can get any of them for relatively the same cost.

i took that to mean he was in a position to purchase at special pricing.

rich

urbanfarmer
01-24-2011, 08:34 PM
I forgot to mention the $1 bulbs were a 4200K color/temperature. Daylight bulbs are usually 6500K and the yellow bulbs are around 2700K (good for flowering phase though). Grow bulbs are 5000K. Here is an example CFL grow bulb with specs: http://www.buy.com/prod/cowboystudio-new-200-w-compact-fluorescent-grow-light-bulb-daylight/q/sellerid/25466247/loc/111/217284647.html


Try the plain Daylight bulbs. That is what I use. The grow lights are not worth it.
I completely agree. They are a waste of money. It's more of a marketing ploy because the lights are all made of the same material.

matthewlewis
04-16-2012, 11:48 PM
Indoor lighting is one important thing you need to consider when planning your house. The proper lighting not only offers an alluring ambiance in the room but also allows for less straining on the eyes in the dark. Take into account your own style or the style of your room. A standard or decorative table lamp can do a lot to pull a room together. There are also the rooms that would benefit from indoor lighting that consists of possibly an attached fan or even a chandelier in some cases.

Orangeries (http://www.hardwood-orangery.co.uk/)