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jackalope
01-03-2011, 06:14 PM
This thread is for all of the info we can gather on the uses of charcoal in Aquaculture, and Aquaponics. There is another discussion on the forum that has revived my desire to figure out how to manufacture my own activated charcoal. I go through a lot of charcoal with my fish - Here in Montana, the costs of heating my 20'x75' (sorry, I don't know that measurement in meters ;) ) ex-saloon/shop/warehouse would be cost-prohibitive, so I do Aquaponics in our 3 month summer (if we have one) and Aquaculture the rest of the year. I know that some may not agree with the use of charcoal, but it's been a facination for me for a long time, I just haven't found the right info for it yet. I'm hoping that dennis will share some of his extensive knowledge with us in this thread. If you're not interested in charcoal, or it's manufacture, "Move Along, There's Nothing to See Here." Please don't hijack this thread with FUD, if you can't add to the discussion, don't comment at all ;)THX

I've learned something in the past few days - powdered activated charcoal can be ingested to remove toxins from your body! I've read that coconut shells make the best activated charcoal, but wood also makes a fine charcoal. Our Lodgepole Pine burns up into ashes in a short time, so I suppose that the softer woods would not be as good for charcoal as hardwoods would.

Any info that you can provide would be very helpful to me and any others interested in making their own charcoal.

head rush
01-04-2011, 11:23 PM
I found this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMUmby8PpU It might not be the same as "activted charcoal"
but then it could be ! Hopefully dennis CAN share is knowledge here and help us out.
I notice that towards the end you will see how he waters down the charcoal to break it down. This might be the catalyst to making it finer and then drying it out to be used in whatever form.
Could this help ?

keith_r
01-05-2011, 09:43 AM
that's biochar, basically creating charcoal.. to create "activated" charcoal, you would need to put the finished charcoal in an acid dip(muratic is much cheaper than battery acid)..
one guy i saw reheated the charcoal in his burner after the acid dip to dry it
then grind it up to a powder

head rush
01-05-2011, 10:35 AM
Yes Kieth... Bio char ! Looks like good stuff.
Well, according to the many sites that I have perused over since looking at the bio char process...
It's fundamental usage is in adding to the soil to enrich it, cleanse it and make it sustainable.
It seems to me that this process of using this bio char has some merit to it.
Activated carbon however manufactured, has a surface area of 500m2 per gram. That's a lot of surface area for such a little. It is used mainly in the gas purification, gold purification, metal extraction, water purification, medicine, sewage treatment, air filters in gas masks and respirators, filters in compressed air and many other applications.
If this is a product that is cheap to purchase then I see endless uses. However, if this works out too expensive to work with, then it would seem justified to maybe go the bio char route.
There's a heck of this subject on the net. Who knew?

Here is a 15 min vid on Tetra Petra..... and it's relevance to soil fertility.
http://biochar.bioenergylists.org/

Just as a matter of curiosity.... would a bag of charcoal submerged (like a tea bag) in an AP tank not benefit by leaching out harmful properties in the water?
Just asking from someone who does not know much about AP. For me there seems to be logic behind my theory, even though I don't know what the hell i'm talking about. 8-)

keith_r
01-05-2011, 11:16 AM
when you say a bag of charcoal, you better be careful.. all kinds of stuff added to what gets sold as charcoal today..
if using a good "pure" lump charcoal, it might help some, but i would think it would get saturated fairly quickly (more personal research necessary here) in ap we're looking for chemical reactions to occur, mostly from microbes converting am to nitrites then nitrates.. activated charcoal contains many more microscopic "nooks and crannies" for the bacteria hold on to
i'm far from an expert on anything but the more i read the deeper it gets

jackalope
01-05-2011, 09:25 PM
If biochar has so much surface area, why would it not be just as good for grow-bed media as expanded clay? If it were processed properly, it seems that it could be used as media in some way or another ;)

rfeiller
01-05-2011, 10:30 PM
expanded clay is basically inert

biochar is said to burn the roots.

a lot of hype going around on biochar. the soil originally contained naturally occuring biochar, it is said to have been depleted by overfarming. so now there are a lot of mfgs pushing biochar with all kinds of cure-all claims.

head rush
01-06-2011, 03:36 AM
If biochar has so much surface area, why would it not be just as good for grow-bed media as expanded clay? If it were processed properly, it seems that it could be used as media in some way or another ;)
It's actually activated carbon/ charcoal that has such a large surface area..... not the bio char.

head rush
01-06-2011, 03:59 AM
biochar is said to burn the roots.
a lot of hype going around on biochar. the soil originally contained naturally occuring biochar, it is said to have been depleted by overfarming. so now there are a lot of mfgs pushing biochar with all kinds of cure-all claims.
Like most suppliers rfeiller... they need to push their product. :)
There are so many sites to look at regarding bio char..... and everyone has the same underlying theme....'What it CAN do'
I think that when you get universities researching this subject and getting big business to donate millions to the parts of the world that needs this kind of technology - then there should be some sort of credibility..... 8-)

If you looked at the links I posted.... especially the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMUmby8PpU - - - towards the end... he actually tells you what ratio you should mix your compost with your bio char as well as what bio char's coverage should be p/square meter. You have to, so as not to let the bio char compete with the plants......

The other link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMUmby8PpU discusses exactly what you have said by depleting the soil of this compound.

Somewhere while searching through bio char and other subjects, I came across a quote of some sorts Early 1900's.......It went something like this......
"...........even with this new farming technique, you will always find the skeptics......."

I wonder how many people used this line with AP and HP not to mention sending men to the moon. :?: ;) :D ;)

rfeiller
01-06-2011, 08:53 AM
it is not that the soil has been depleted, this is a fact, most of our soils in californina are dead zones. it is as in any marketing opportunity a lot more credit is given to a product than it is capable of sustaining. i have read numerous articles on biochar, some by creditible sources many not.
any compound mixed in with the soil should be blended into the soil in moderation.

before i accept info i want to see blind studies, and true comparitive analysis. there is a logical path to most information. i'm not interested in the placibo effect.

no part of the world needs to have it's soils replenished more then the united states. being the bread basket of the world our water supply has been drastically reduced and the soil has been biologically depleted of naturally occuring nutrients. i am behind any way that the soil can be revitalized. unfortunately i believe it would take many years of intense work to bring back just part of the soil. to produce biochar; how many forest will have to be cut done to meet the market demand? our forest are already over cut. much of which goes to other countries.

the question i was responding too was why couldn't it be used in place of expanded clay.

rfeiller
01-06-2011, 11:49 AM
You may already know this, but gac can be made from different sources such as shale, wood, coconut make sure it is Ph neutral, it can have a Ph above 9. I don't know about biochar.l
It was almost a disaster in my fish hatchery. And it will prevent the uptake of nutrients in plants.

head rush
01-06-2011, 12:40 PM
i'm Not having a go at you rfeiller Just answering your post in a broad spectrum way... 8-)
Not aimed at you ! Sorry if it came across that way ! :|

I try and use all my organic scraps from my garden to compost so as to turn it back into my beds..
Including my lawn cuttings... Crumbs- that normally takes about 3 full wheely bins at a time....
This takes en endless amount of work..... but it's having an effect.. 3 years down the line.
I keep doing it out of habit now and have more than enough for 5 gardens my size....
We here in South Africa don't really mix with our neighbours... sorta leave me alone attitude..
But ! ! ! if everyone did the same as what we do in our garden.... the whole neighbourhood will have abundance....
But we don't think that way.... Pity ! I would gladly share.....
Can you guy's imagine if everyone had their own AP system how much cheaper food would be?

(Pie in the sky thinking here folks :P )

I suppose if EVERYONE on the planet does a little at a time... it will eventually pay off.
Not sit back and let all the tree hugger's, organic farmers, AP and HP guy's, self sustaining people etc, etc do their small share while the rest of the world is drying up or burning....And everyone waits for the other to do their part..... but it happens....... to the determent of the planet as a whole.

rfeiller
01-06-2011, 01:01 PM
head rush
it was obvious from your posts that you are very much concerned about the enviornment.

i have gardened orgainically for about 20 yrs. my yard even though in a crowded city has an abundance of wildlife even though the homes around me are toxic dumps from insecticides, herbicides etc. i have my compost piles, my worm boxes. i have used Taro for removal of nitrates and other substances from my koi pond/creek setup for about 8 yrs. it does an excellent job. the koi and turtles love to eat taro every part of it is edible and it is more temperature tollerant, from a growing point then is cat tails. it is still producing leaves in 30-40 degree temp. where the cat tails quit two months ago, so they are dormant. taro does not produce the destructive runners, that the reeds do. yet i believe they produce a larger plant and better root system in the same period of time. they are contained in floating nets or perforated plastic boxes.

i don't know if you have gone to calgoncarbon.com; you will see the many, many specifically engineered grades of GAC. i prefer the acid washed coconut shell, ph neutral product for potable water. i have had better success with that product then with the coal based products. they are pricey if you purchase them, that is why i use a water treatment company to supply and change out the tanks. they refire the used gac. spent gac is considered toxic waste and can't just be dumped.

i wish you the best with your project. i too will be recycling my grey water, but not for food or veges. only for ornamentals. by the way several states including California will allow you a permit to reclaim your grey water.

jackalope
01-07-2011, 09:57 AM
expanded clay is basically inert

biochar is said to burn the roots.



Thanks, The wheat and oat farmers used to burn the fields after harvest, to be able to plow in the ashes/carbon, which adds nitrogen, etc. back into the earth. That had been stopped now because of the eco-freaks, so our farmland is going to uslessness because it can't be replenished. I think if there were less soil-depleting commercial ferts and poisons being put on our food, and more cow, sheep, chicken, and goat ferts put on our crops, we wouldn't have the problems we have now - ecoli, etc. I'm wondering if the biochar wouldn't be a good idea in trying to bring back the good soil we once had here. Yes, it would take a long time, but it probably could be done. If a program similar to the biblical 'land rest' were put into effect, that would help as well. A college in Texas ran their farms and ranches this way and succeeded in replenishing the soil where once there had been worthless farmland, only good for grazing.

IOW, I like the idea of the use of biochar in replenishing the earth's soil.

I'd like to know more about the manufacture of 'activated charcoal' without using acids, etc. I've seen some pretty good vids on You Tube for manufacturing charcoal, but I'd like to see something for activating it with steam and pressure, rather than acids (more pollution and toxic waste).

keith_r
01-07-2011, 11:28 AM
kinda off topic, but kinda on..
i just read a study that showed "non-plowed" land released much less nitrous oxide than plowed or tilled land.. actually finds that it's more beneficial to not plow at all

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2010/101220VynNitrous.html

rfeiller
01-07-2011, 12:38 PM
that is true keith, plowing totally disrupts the balance of organisms in the soil.

biochar took thousands of years to become the entire ecosystem that it is and yes ash is good for the soil in moderation. after a forest fire all types of plant life springs up. making charcoal in a steel drum is not biochar, it is charcoal fit for the bar b que. what has been depleted will not be able to be replaced with charcoal. these guys on youtube try for their 5 minutes of fame.

i don't know if you folks, have gone to the Rosebud.com, urbangarden.com and maximumyield.com websites, these three also produce mags on hydroponics. great reading.

i'm sorry if i come across as trying to go heads up. i have designed and built several fish hatcheries, i have given lectures across the country in years past on waterpurification, tropical fish breeding and hatchery design and construction. i have an idea of what makes aquaculture work. aquaponics is in some respects new to me, i find a lot of good information from numerous sources and of course the knowledgeable guys on this forum. i appreciate everyones participation particularly those that disagree with me, it makes me do more research.

have a great day my forum friends.

jackalope
01-07-2011, 03:05 PM
You may already know this, but gac can be made from different sources such as shale, wood, coconut make sure it is Ph neutral, it can have a Ph above 9. I don't know about biochar.l
It was almost a disaster in my fish hatchery. And it will prevent the uptake of nutrients in plants.

I can't imagine charcoal being made from shale .... amazing! We have a lot of shale around here .... I wonder ...... ;) :lol: How do they process rocks/stone to become charcoal? This would be an interesting addition to this thread.

I'm glad we're getting so much information in this thread, that was the intent of separating the two threads - as I said previously, I'd like to know more about the steam process for 'activation' as I'm not thrilled by the idea that something I put into my stomach is "acid-washed.' If my fish live in the water that the acid-washed charcoal is in, I'm not sure I want to eat those fish, if you get my drift! Ergo, I'd like to learn to make my own charcoal, and then steam-activate it ..... that would make me feel a lot better about it!

head rush
01-08-2011, 01:13 AM
The acid that they use is washed of many times...... so by the time you get it - it's cleaned.
Fit for human/animal consumption.
I just wonder what they do with the acid once it's all saturated and used up?

rfeiller (i'm not attacking here !) What I understand about bio char is that you have to make the charcoal...But at a higher more intense heat. Whether it's in a steel drum or an earth mound....But!!.. it must be almost 200 degC higher than making normal charcoal. Once that has been achieved - you wet down this charcoal and break it up. Let it stand a while... then mix it with soil at a 10% rate to soil/top soil or a 50/50 rate to compost. This rests AGAIN for a while and then gets added to you field- garden - beds etc at a rate of 1kg per square meter.
How else would they make it? Maybe I missed something? What name do they give this process? Yes, we learn from mother nature, be it 5 min or 5000 years..... we mimic so many things and sometimes better mother natures capabilities for our benefit. I've seen many posts and forums over this last week that makes me understand more and makes me look stupid at the same time...
Just like Aquaponics, Hydroponics, Aqua culture.... Air o ponics... etc These were all looked at with skepticism in it's infancy.... until people caught on. All these guys tried to get in their 5 min of fame..... and look where it got them.... International recognition.....Well, sorta.
AP and related have long way to go yet to be accepted in every back yard across the world....
It's guys like you that are the pioneers in todays technology and abundance of information that will make this possible. Like the guys before you.
Here are people looking for alternatives.....finding them, tweaking and refining their processes for the next generation....Who are we really to be skeptical?
My granddad always said to me that when you are discussing something....always- always look at it from the other mans perspective. That way we learn.
Like you say rfeiller Lots of info from very knowledgeable guys here. This is why i'm hanging around. :D
Please- like I say- i'm not knocking or attacking here ! 8-)
Interesting reading kieth_r.

rfeiller
01-08-2011, 10:18 AM
The natural biochar is an entire ecosystem made up of many different organism's. Without these organism's it is charcoal. By adding charcoal to the soil with the addition of composts and manures the charcoal is innoculated with these organisms it will become biochar. But it will take many years to become anything like the naturally. Occurring biochar. All that is happening is you are dumping charcoal on your dirt.

head rush
01-08-2011, 11:43 AM
This makes good reading..... Lots of great links too...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochar
Anyway Jacalope... my last contribution to your original request...Sorry for the side track....

Activated Charcoal and it's Manufacture..........................

Activated charcoal can be made at home by chemical activation procedure, provided you have the required materials and equipments. Though any organic material can be used as precursor or raw material for producing activated charcoal, you should select a non toxic carbon source with absorbent properties. You can make use of coconut shells or hardwood. Let's discuss in brief how to make activated charcoal using coconut shells as the raw material.
First of all, keep all the required materials ready for making activated charcoal; you need coconut shells (without meat), burning sink, oven, 25 percent concentrated solution of calcium chloride (CaCl2) or zinc chloride (ZnCl2), sterilized water, plastic pail, draining tray, zipper bags and blender. Before starting the procedure, you can strip off coconut shells, wash thoroughly with clean water and allow them to dry completely. If drying is not done properly, they may be difficult to burn.
Add the dried coconut shells in the burning sink by adjusting the temperature to about 600 - 900 degrees Fahrenheit. Maintain the recommended temperature range and burn continuously for about 4 ½ hours or until the coconut shells turn into ash. For safe handling, you can leave the ash until it cools down. After the ash has cooled down, carefully take out the ash from the sink and transfer it into a clean plastic pail. Then, pour the 25 percent concentrated solution of calcium chloride or zinc chloride into the plastic pail.
The amount of calcium chloride or zinc chloride solution should be such that the ash is soaked completely into the solution. Cover the pail with a lid and leave for 20 - 24 hours. During this process, the chemicals are impregnated into the ash, after which further treatment will transform the ash into activated charcoal. The next step is removing the charcoal from the chemical solution and transferring it into a draining tray. Allow solution to drain for about 1 hour.
For removal of any trace chemicals from the charcoal, you can wash and rinse repeatedly with sterilized water. Thorough washing is essential in order to get rid of the chemical solution, which is one of the most common problems in the making of activated charcoal by chemical activation procedure. After washing, keep the charcoal in the tray for draining water. Following this, transfer the charcoal into an oven, setting the temperature to about 215 - 230 degrees Fahrenheit and bake for about 3 hours.
After baking, remove the activated charcoal from the oven and crush it with the help of a blender. You can also grind the activated charcoal into powder form by using a hammer. For future use, store the powdered activated charcoal into zipper bags or airtight containers. This way you can make activated charcoal on your own.
By Ningthoujam Sandhyarani
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/how-to-m ... rcoal.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/how-to-make-activated-charcoal.html)

I have learned so much in the last few days. Thanks for the post.