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head rush
12-27-2010, 09:49 AM
Lets see if you guys can lead me with this one...

I have to get used to the idea that I need to conserve water.
On the property that we have bought there are 4 houses on the land.
It's an agricultural piece of 3.5 hectares. Each house has it's own septic tank..... Each household has 5+ people living in.
My first concern or job that I will have to tackle there is the consumption of water.
My idea is to collect all the grey water...( water from the shower, bathroom basin and washing machine) pipe it to an outside reed bed configuration where the water will flow and heal.
This I would like to then pipe back to the individual houses for the use in flushing the loo's. (this obviously becomes black water and is never used... (goes to the septic tank, same as the water from the kitchen sink and dish washer)

The extra water coming off the reed bed, I would like to have this then go into a a few settling ponds. With water cleaning reeds and marginal water flowers purifying the water.
From the settling pond I would then have the 'cleaned' water go into the main water pond.
This pond will be for the soul use for holding water.
This pond too will have reeds and oxygenating plants.
It is this water from the last stage pond that I want to use to supply the water to my AP/Hydroponic system.
So................there you have it so far.....
Has anyone used a reed bed to 'clean' grey-water? If so i'd love to see or hear of your set up.
Please let me know if i'm crazy :roll: to even think I could do this......I believe it's possible....
I just have to get the system figured out....
Any comments? :?:

davidstcldfl
12-27-2010, 02:14 PM
Hi head rush, most of the USA uses water to flush our loo's, that's better then what a lot of the world drinks... :oops: Of course our water isn't what it used to be.... :(
The folks in AU are way ahead of us.

Seems like were just starting to think along the lines of re-using gray water and such. I've been thinking about collecting the water from my shower, and using a 12 volt bilge pump with a float switch to re-fill my loo

As far as your design/thoughts......have you considered also using duckweed ? It's an amazing little plant...really can do a great job on cleaning water...even picks up heavy metals.

badflash
12-27-2010, 03:05 PM
Plain old Cattails work great. The go crazy on gray water. No need for a settling pond after.

head rush
12-27-2010, 03:32 PM
Thanks davidstcldfl
Here are a few links to the grey-water factor ;)
I think that duck weed is a crazy plant. Great for feeding fish but not so great to control. If the duckwed is not thinned out, the sun can't get to the water which could render it useless.
Reeds man... Reeds 8-) When duckweed gets into a system it's almost impossible to get out... I'm scared of that stuff.
http://www.freewater.co.za/Products%20- ... ystems.htm (http://www.freewater.co.za/Products%20-%20Grey%20Water%20Systems.htm)
http://www.earthactionmentor.org/articles/20100105
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load ... 27560.html (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/bog/msg0116544527560.html)
http://www.dwc-water.com/technologies/g ... index.html (http://www.dwc-water.com/technologies/grey-water-recycling/index.html)
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... m?aid=2153 (http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=2153)
http://www.holon.se/folke/projects/open ... v_en.shtml (http://www.holon.se/folke/projects/openliw/openlev_en.shtml)

Btw... How come you say you guys in the States are behind on this grey-water usage thing...
I thought you chaps invented the idea :?
I have a book called 'Other Homes and Garbage' My favorite self sufficiency book.
It was compiled by Jim Leckie, Gil Masters, Harry Whitehouse, Lily Young. 1975 / San Francisco.
Even these guys make reference to using this method....... those days the name grey-water hadn't been invented. Hydraponics, Aquaponics probably swear words then.
But I think that you guys in the States have more stricter laws. Prohibiting the use of grey-water. Maybe that's why not so many people are doing it maybe?

Fantastic plant to have in a reed bed badflash These are fantastic cleaners....
BUT!!! they eventually dry out the water bed....Needs serious management.http://www.cattails.info/
The ancient Egyptians cultivated it for a reason ?????

davidstcldfl
12-27-2010, 04:04 PM
Sure the 'mother earth'...'tree huggers' love that kind of thing ! They've been talking about stuff like that for years. Some even have dry/composting 'loos'

I'm talking the general public...or more the public utilities. My little city, like a lot, are now using gray water for sprinkler systems...public and private. Just got to keep those 1000's of acres of golf courses green.... :roll:
Most citys don't want condensate water from Air condidtioning put into the waste water sytems. Here in FL, we have 1,000's of gallons of (almost) clean water, every day, just being dumped on the ground.... :roll:

'Giant' duckweed is pretty easy to keep control of...it's one of the varitys we have in FL. I can see where the little stuff, could be a pain.

badflash
12-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Harvest the cattails periodically to keep them under control. They produce more starch per acre than potatoes or corn. They can easily be converted to ethanol. There is a nice section on it in the book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas".

jackalope
12-29-2010, 12:32 PM
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head rush
12-30-2010, 12:56 AM
WoW

dennis
12-30-2010, 12:56 PM
just a little info on this one, i looked into treating waste water with plants a bit check into bamboo it seems to love waste water and you can use or sell the bamboo, more costly but i was considering ferrocement trench with gravel flowing the waste thru it to feed the bamboo, hey believe it or not i had this idea long before i heard of aquaponics or even new about hydroponics,there is also a grass being used for erosion control called vetiver grass it has been tested on grey water i think in a raft system they had all the results online and seemed to do a very good job at cleaning the water, but it was not a flow thru they just filled the tank let it set for some time to clean the water, i think this was done in california usa, as a side product the roots store the toxic stuff and you can use the leaves as fodder for cows goats etc, it has a root system that grows to i think 4 meter or so, and is being used in reclaiming mining land and steep hillside farming to form natural terrace wonderful stuff, there is lots of research into other plants also, there is a factory here in vegas that treats every drop of water from chocolat factory including human waste with a varity of plants and what is left is used to water a public display cactus garden cool stuff

dennis
12-30-2010, 01:14 PM
oh an after thought look into slow sand filter, plans and info free on net and also info on " activated carbon" how to make or more often called activated charcoal, how to make the basic is first make charcoal ( coconuts shell is best they say ) then take the charcoal and 2nd step is to " activate it " most use i think battery acid, but i did see something on using steam under pressure to activate it, the activated charcoal is used for medicen can be sold as a business idea using steam would be more expensive i think as you need a container to hold and regulate the steam under pressure but is more natural and safe as long as you dont blow up the pressure vessel, there is info on the net regarding toxins that can be filtered with activated charcoal try a search on toxins removed with activated charcoal might find that info, same with slow sand filter, hope this is usefull info, if you try slow sand filter look into ferrocement water tank construction, if you choose ferrocement construction you might have another part time business to help others in construction of tanks ferrocement dot com has tons of info on this. very helpfull people including low cost building methods using bamboo and bio fiber, hey if you grow bamboo in waste water you , and gain knowledge in ferro cement you can make a side business building with bamboo ferrocement, they show how to make low cost panels etc and bio fiber with acrylic cement is really cool stuff also this has all been used in africa also

head rush
12-30-2010, 01:59 PM
That's fantastic info Dennis. Thanks.
Battery acid? ? ? sounds toxic....
I'm going to look at this ferrocement stuff right now.
Ta ! 8-)

head rush
12-30-2010, 03:46 PM
Just looked at the ferrocement stuff. quite cool. We in South Africa have various cement supply companies that manufacture "artistic cement" products. Cemcrete is one of them. Not to mention waterproof compounds to seal the cement/concrete. Once this is sealed the concrete becomes inert and does not leech off any harmful by product/chemicals...
I was thinking of not going the concrete route, but rather using a thicker dam liner plastic for the gravel reed beds.
The ferrocement for the tanks might just be the way to go.....
I'll think about it.

dennis
12-30-2010, 06:05 PM
yes i was going to look into food grade pond liners we call them here , not sure which would be lower cost, i think ferrocement would last longer, to be considered in the cost, i hear you should nutrilize the concreat before using for the system, i am not positive on how to do that perhaps someone here can answer that question

rfeiller
12-31-2010, 12:42 AM
the commercial grades or GAC (granular activated carbon) are specifically designed for the adsorbtion of specific gasses, chems, organics. they are graded by iodine rating, grain size, derived from what type of carbon, etc. i wouldn't attempt to make it. without the proper equipment it would be pretty worthless stuff.

slow sand filters (the key word here is slow) are the simplist way to purify water. methods of water purification of course run the gambit. slow sand filters meet the basic need of producing potable water from poluted sources for those that do not have decent water, about 1.1billion people do not have an adequate potable water source. thank you nestle co. and the world bank.

dennis
12-31-2010, 09:00 AM
well about the activated charcoal if i pull off my plans in the philippines, i will get around to producing it, as i have a strong intrest in natural med.s in growing processing etc, i have read a fair amount, no sorry i am being humble i have read more about this subject them 99 percent of people in the world, am i not stupid, and i will hire the needed college types in the PI to do it all right , and have you bothered to read how to do it , it is not that hard, all i was doing was giving just a bit of info for him to look into if he chooses to research etc that is his business, you are a little too quick to try to impress and shoot someone down, making charcoal activated is very simple really compaired to oh even compaired to an advance aquaponics system, ( i am not going to bother at this time to look up details and make any point to you about it just waste my time. a The truth is if you do not know what is going on in the world the coming bank failure etc you might also want to learn how to make it and such things as oh say olive leaf extract, let me guess it is too hard to make the med's from olive leaf?? lol
just because YOU would not do something does not mean someone else does not have a need or ability to do something, i dont mean to rant but i am very american and born with this passion of not being told what to do, you do seem like a very nice helpfull smart guy, with great intentions, but to tell me not to do something so simple as make activated charcoal,
now i can understand if i had printed a detailed manual of how to make it and you saw faults in my printed manual and you wanted to offer a word of caution fine, but i just pointed at a low cost low tech possibility, this stuff has been made for a very long time NOT high tech, ask any good high school chem teacher and he could design a system to make and use low cost equipment to make it

dennis
12-31-2010, 11:02 AM
in defense of mr rfeiller perhaps i should have made it clear, those that seek low tech info on clean water for multi use, should check out activated charcoal , in my response i could see the gentelamn from south africa is a smart guy and seems well read and knows how to research, guess i tend to have faith in people, it may go beyond the scope of this fourm to discuss all methods of cleaning water for mankind, but of those methods activated charcoal is a very old and really low tech when looking at many methods used today NO it is not a cure all a little research will show what it does and does not do here is a like to a very simple method, yes this method does use chem's and i do NOT prefeer this method but then most activated charcoal used in med's uses chem's http://www.ehow.com/how_4827208_make-ac ... rcoal.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_4827208_make-activated-charcoal.html) it is a doityourself low cost way not my choosen way but just to show it is simple, and also note there are benifits in even lower cost methods, using plain charcoal, mr rfeiller , i see your remarks about world bank and we agree and are on the same page, i have spent thousands of hours of research on that subject, new world order, and that is the big reason i pointed out info about activated charcoal, people may soon need such info to survive, i have been to " third world countries" and in my simple methods i see how lives could have been saved with my low tech ideas or methods, even if it is not the best method, the faces of such dead children that I KNEW haunts my dreams, in one case a home made charcoal would have helped, ( he used to sneak up on me and place the only "toy " he hever had a pet spider on my ear, and his laughter i will never forget i was not there when he died and yes my first choice would have been to take him to a doc ) that is the real reason i seek info on things like aquaponics and activated charcoal, they BOTH can help people, i did not mean to rant so much but i am correct about this! by the way slow sand is wonderful but it does not remove all from water either, to do it right it would take testing i understand in some countries and cases it simple methods might be used, a person could make charcoal not even activated pound it to a fine powder and run water thru it and improve the water quality, is that perfect no but it is PROVEN to help

head rush
12-31-2010, 11:11 AM
Woha ! dennis...i'm sure that rfeiller never meant it as you seem to have taken it.
I think you have taken his point of view as a personal attack.....
From my perspective this was not so. Please let's not turn this into a slug fest..
I value both your comments. ! ! ! !
I will have to make a filter bed for the water run off. And yes, it will have to be slow.
With the amount of water that will be added to the first reed beds with every load of washing and shower I presume that I would HAVE to speed up the process of purifying the water. Before it gets to the main pond which will be supplying my AP system in the long run.This obviously will have to go through many cleaning beds with various reeds and plants absorbing different intensities of impurities. Charcoal/ activated carbon is one of the ways of possibly adding it to the filter reed beds.

But the thing is - where in nature do you get charcoal/activate carbon in natural reed beds.......?
Is it just more feasible for man to add it in to speed up the process of cleaning the water?
Is this something that I will inevitably have to do?
Would wood charcoal not do the trick? Why do you have to activate it? I thought it was a ready to use product. 'scuse my ignorance.
Dennis, i'm not too keen on the battery acid idea......steam sounds more earth friendly....
Wood.... I have stacks and stacks of wood that could be turned into charcoal......Coconut husks were short of here.... a rare commodity. So with your knowledge.... can this be done here??

rfeiller I don't know much about the politics of water..... I know that here in S/Africa we are running out of the stuff.
Millions are dependable on it and have no acess to it or have none at all. So sad :cry:
Hence my small contribution in trying to make a difference. :!:

Thanks to all of you for your comments so far !

head rush
12-31-2010, 11:16 AM
dennis - I see you beat me to it.... You must of just sneaked in your post before me......
Speedy Gonzalez !!

dennis
12-31-2010, 11:57 AM
yes i also do not want a slug fest mr rfeiller seems like a very smart guy, and i am perhaps a bit sensitive but if you read my motivation and i note i agree with him on the world bank so i am 100 percent on the same page with him on many things, in truth after learning how the world bank has used my country to hurt devloping countries, see a book called " confessions of an economic hitman " to explain, well lets say i used to have such pride in america and our people! now that i see the truth and how we have let ourselves be used to hurt poor people in other countries, i am not proude and all i can do in my simple way try to help, i am not a writer but i am informed on a few things
see i was right you are very perceptive and smart all i had to do was mention charcoal and you already made a very educated guess, yes normal charcoal will do alot,

rfeiller
12-31-2010, 02:12 PM
refined GAC was developed for air purification. but i can remember 50yrs ago when it was called by it's low quality name of carbon. this was basically what can be easily made. very limited in it's abiltity to adsorb.
GAC if used in water with a lot of organics or turbity will load up very quickly. in short order it becomes nothing more than a nitrifiying bed. it is excellent because of it's porosity to colonize bacteria.

if you have seen electron microscopic photos of an RO membrane after having been in service you will have seen colonies of bacteria.

water purification is a very complex process if one is trying to produce a truely pure product. RO, DI (cation, anion resins) nanofiltration, UV (which is worthless in water with heavy organics or turbity), ozone, GAC, specific minerals, coagulators, percipitators and on and on.

basic filtration for minimal potable filtration is slow sand. then if you should have carbon available as a last step run it through. look inside of a wine or whiskey cask this is why they are charred.

you can construct a large slow sand filter if you have the resources and equipment.

rfeiller
12-31-2010, 02:27 PM
sorry for the add but, there are areas were, you have probably seen these working waste water treatment plants that are totally biological with usuing multiple ponds as you mentioned the final ponds contain tilapia to eat the vegetation. and then sent to market, where people ingest them and take in the toxins from the fishes fatty tissues (which is where the animal kingdom stores toxins that it can not process) from the fishes sole diet of vegetation that fed off of sewage containing toxic chems and heavy metals.

that is my concern with closed system aquaponics where water containing trace elements that are at a safe level become concentrated because of evaporation replaced water and are taken up by the plants and obsorbed by the fish. anyone check their fish for what's in their tissues. every photo i've seen on this forum show fish living in water that resembles a sewer, yellow, brownish, cloudy.

dennis
12-31-2010, 03:58 PM
humm, well i have been trying to NOT get very technical here, in hope those with intrest will do the research, doesnt seem the place to go into a lot of detail so i will keep it simple, anyone seeking clean water, take a look at slow sand filters and activated charcoal, no neither is the perfect answer but i trust inmankind and think most here if they choose learn about water will do the research, i prefeer to keep it simple and not try to scare people with " my knowledge" both slow sand and charcoal activated or not have a use, i did not say to use it, just opened the door to look at a couple of things in use
here is a bit from natures sunshine product

An astonished gathering of the French Academy of Medicine watched as a pharmacist named Touery downed one grain of strychnine (10 times the lethal dose) without any noticeable ill effect! A few years earlier in 1813, another Frenchman swallowed a whole teaspoonful of arsenic trioxide, about 150 times the amount that would have killed most people. He also lived without ill effect. Why? Both of these men had mixed the poison with finely ground charcoal, which has a phenomenal ability to hold poisons from being absorbed by the body. Even so, we do not recommend that you try the above 18th century experiments!
It is important to understand that charcoal (or carbon) does not function like a sponge in pulling into its inner structures various pollutants. Instead, poisonous gases and chemicals adhere or stick to its surface. If you were to eat the carbon, nearby poisons within your body would attach to it firmly until the body expels both of them from the body. The charcoal is not absorbed into the blood, but is merely a carrier of toxins. As far as we know, carbon does not lose any of them prematurely.

What does "Activated" mean? When wood is heated 600 degrees centigrade in a container with the oxygen removed, certain gases and liquids are driven off. It does not 'burn' because the oxygen is missing. (Only a little may be in the wood itself) After this process is completed, steam at 4OO degrees centigrade is introduced (or air is sometimes used), under high pressure. Remember, it is not "absorbed" but 'adheres' to the outer surface of the carbon.

Not only is this state of 'active porosity' obtained by the steam or air pressure process, but simultaneously purifies the product for internal use. Use the powdered form if possible, as commercial tablets are about half as effective and should be chewed.

" after all the debates K.I.S.S. seems to always work best "

badflash
12-31-2010, 06:22 PM
Activated charcoal is great, but only for a short period, then it is exhausted. It provides no long term benefit. Unless you set up a way to easily change it, and make it cheaply, you need to explore other methods.

Reed beds, cattails, and even algae have proven to be cheaper and more effective for the long haul.

dennis
12-31-2010, 09:27 PM
badflash sorry but your reply is almost funny did you read my post?? you tell me to do something but you dont know what i was saying it seems , do i need to explain or ignore what you said to be polite

head rush
01-01-2011, 05:15 AM
rfeiller Thanks .... do you have a link or maybe a post that you think I could get other ideas on?
I have already a few designs that I want to draw out and post here so as to get more points of view.........or at least to see if i'm going to do it the right way....

So dennis and rfeiller, I can use wood charcoal? un-activated? It would work just as it is?
Obviously I would have to construct the bed with the different layers of various gravel and sand.
The charcoal, I presume would have to be one of the top layers. Crushed to a small size?
Maybe the second or third layer.
Does this charcoal eventually get saturated? Will it have to get changed or is it a constant cleanser?

Who would of thunk to burn the inside of a barrel hey?

head rush
01-01-2011, 05:16 AM
badflash...you too?
What's with this quick draw stuff? ? ? lol :D
So it does get exhausted !

JCO
01-01-2011, 09:10 AM
Dennis,


badflash sorry but your reply is almost funny did you read my post?? you tell me to do something but you dont know what i was saying it seems , do i need to explain or ignore what you said to be polite

More than likely Badflash will not respond to your post but I on the other hand am a little more outspoken. Of course it is only my opinion but maybe it would have been a little more polite to have ignored the post by Badflash altogether than to have commented on it. :mrgreen:

rfeiller
01-01-2011, 10:58 AM
head rush, sorry this thread went sideways, i believe that you can achieve the basic results you need for cleaning water with micro/macro plant life, bacteria of course is the primary cleaner. aeration has not been mentioned and that is the most critical element.

looking for some sources for you.

happy new year!

rich

dennis
01-01-2011, 11:46 AM
wow, i was not trying to design his system i was not even saying he had to use charcoal, i admire what he is doing under such circumstances, some seem to get some weird idea i was saying use charcoal in aquaponics? notice i said there is a company using only plants to clean all water including black water, so yes i see the proof that plants can be used, yet some tried to cram the same notion that i presented on my post sort of repeating what i said saying i was worng but saying they are right and repeat what i allready said ??? lol i was not trying to tell him how to do this and only offered a couple of other plants to look at IF they can be of use to him , not that those plants are the best but because they have multi use, such as in the case of money being tight !! i left details to his exploration he is smart guy and if he thought he might need something like bamboo then thru his own research he would see other uses of bamboo like for low cost pipe or construction, as far as the dreaded charcoal subject part of this i never said it had to be used, what seems common sense is research all the plants used in such systems , see what he has available try them , test the water as it comes out see what is left and look for ways to remove any other toxins , and yes if needed the slow sand would be next i think but i have to go back to stuff i was reading 10 years ago i, hey i have worn out 3 computers on all of this stuff, and yes to the one that said i should just ignore stupid comments, i will to the point of not using this site if i have to, i am lucky that i have a great source of info on aquaponics, a working commercial system, and not looking to experment myself, i admire those that do twist and tweek i will always check from time to time to see what they learn
good luck in africa and hope i get to drop in one day to see your hard work oh and thanks to the guy in nevada for his info

jackalope
01-01-2011, 12:18 PM
humm, well i have been trying to NOT get very technical here, in hope those with intrest will do the research, doesnt seem the place to go into a lot of detail so i will keep it simple, anyone seeking clean water, take a look at slow sand filters and activated charcoal, no neither is the perfect answer but i trust inmankind and think most here if they choose learn about water will do the research, i prefeer to keep it simple and not try to scare people with " my knowledge" both slow sand and charcoal activated or not have a use, i did not say to use it, just opened the door to look at a couple of things in use
here is a bit from natures sunshine product

An astonished gathering of the French Academy of Medicine watched as a pharmacist named Touery downed one grain of strychnine (10 times the lethal dose) without any noticeable ill effect! A few years earlier in 1813, another Frenchman swallowed a whole teaspoonful of arsenic trioxide, about 150 times the amount that would have killed most people. He also lived without ill effect. Why? Both of these men had mixed the poison with finely ground charcoal, which has a phenomenal ability to hold poisons from being absorbed by the body. Even so, we do not recommend that you try the above 18th century experiments!
It is important to understand that charcoal (or carbon) does not function like a sponge in pulling into its inner structures various pollutants. Instead, poisonous gases and chemicals adhere or stick to its surface. If you were to eat the carbon, nearby poisons within your body would attach to it firmly until the body expels both of them from the body. The charcoal is not absorbed into the blood, but is merely a carrier of toxins. As far as we know, carbon does not lose any of them prematurely.

What does "Activated" mean? When wood is heated 600 degrees centigrade in a container with the oxygen removed, certain gases and liquids are driven off. It does not 'burn' because the oxygen is missing. (Only a little may be in the wood itself) After this process is completed, steam at 4OO degrees centigrade is introduced (or air is sometimes used), under high pressure. Remember, it is not "absorbed" but 'adheres' to the outer surface of the carbon.

Not only is this state of 'active porosity' obtained by the steam or air pressure process, but simultaneously purifies the product for internal use. Use the powdered form if possible, as commercial tablets are about half as effective and should be chewed.

" after all the debates K.I.S.S. seems to always work best "

@ dennis - I'm no "health nut" but the wife is ..... are you saying that swallowing powered charcoal is a good thing? I've never heard of that! THX

And, BTW, I use activated charcoal in my FTs to remove toxins from the crappy water we have - Chlorides, Flourides, and who knows what else :!: I don't see that as being a bad thing and we also use zeolites, when we can afford them! We still run the water thru GBs to let the bacteria do it's thing. The charcoal does have to be replaced from time to time, but so what ..... so does the media if you don't want to put it into a self-cleaning oven to bring it up to 550F to kill any diseases, flukes or parasites that might be in the fish water.

@head rush - I once found a You-tube vid that showed a guy in Israel that was doing pretty much what you are intending to do ..... using reeds (I think that's about the same as 'cat-tails' here in Montana) to filter, and heal the water from his grey-water system - something we can't do here in Montana, because to have a pond, we have to get the permission of the state, county, city, and probably the Feds! .... I've lost all of my bookmarks recently, so I don't have it anymore, but maybe you can find it if you search enuff ....

Just my 2 centavos .....

badflash
01-01-2011, 12:44 PM
badflash sorry but your reply is almost funny did you read my post?? you tell me to do something but you dont know what i was saying it seems , do i need to explain or ignore what you said to be polite

Maybe I read your post wrong, but I'm sure you were saying you were adding charcoal to a reed bed. After about a day the charcoal is exhausted and just provides a nice porous place for bacteria. This is no different than any other porous material. Some of the ancient South Americans used char in this way.

Your posts are very long and contain little content for the number of words you are using. Perhaps you can summarize your point in just a few sentences?

rfeiller
01-01-2011, 01:54 PM
jackolope,
i run all of the water that goes to the RO (1400gpd system), the koi ponds and the greenhouse through a GAC tank supplied and rountinely changed out by a water treatment company. the 2cuft tank is changed out monthly.

GAC capsuls use to be available at healthfood places.

badflash
01-01-2011, 02:21 PM
How to you maintain the mineral content? What is the capacity of the R/O unit?

dennis
01-01-2011, 04:53 PM
yes charcoal, activated charcoal being the best, is and has been used for a very long time,( for med's) lots of info on the net, it is cheep and yes you can make it yourself, and yes it was first pretty much plain charcoal, but dont try the stuff for cooking it has all kinds of stuff added,

rfeiller
01-01-2011, 09:02 PM
The GAC has an iodine rating of about 1100 this insures that the chlorimines are adsorbed as a compound and not broken which would release the ammonia.
the unit will produce 1400 gals per day at 200 psi. It consists of two 2-1/2 x 42" thin film composite membranes run in series. utilizing a recycling set up, a recovery rate of about 75percent about were i am at.
I am not currently using RO in the greenhouse. with a rejection rate of close to 100% the water has no buffers left and it becomes very unstable with a buildup of orgaincs. i am not at all pleased with how things are in the greenhouse and need to make some changes.

i need to test the existing water parameters, should be around 100ppm hardness and a ph of 7.4. nitrifiying bacteria do not do well below 7ph. and of course ammonia becomes more toxic the highter the ph. if ph falls below 5 nitrification all but ceases. this could be an issue with greywater that could be too acidic.

badflash
01-02-2011, 09:53 AM
Check out the Kold-sterile units. Virtually no loss. Just bad stuff filtered out.

rfeiller
01-02-2011, 10:20 AM
a lot of great new technology badflash, i'll check it out. I designed and built this unit in '87 when RO meant a 3/4 loss. recycling valves, better membranes have of course come in since then.

i'm thinking of adding partial by-pass slow sand filters to my tanks. these plants are not even coming close to keeping up with the nitrates.

badflash
01-02-2011, 01:47 PM
Sand filters won't remove nitrates. For that you need an anaerobic digester. I fear it would be too expensive, but the technology is established. This is the "other side" of the nitrogen cycle that occurs in the mud beneath the pond. Once the oxygen is gone the nitrate eating bacteria go to work. Free nitrogen and sometimes hydrogen sulfide is released as bubbles AKA "swamp gas".

You need more plants if you can't keep the nitrates in check. I have a very fast growing string algae that might do the trick. Grow that in a separate pond from the fish, harvest it often and feed it to te fish. Koi and Tilapia love it.

jackalope
01-02-2011, 02:37 PM
Sand filters won't remove nitrates. For that you need an anaerobic digester. I fear it would be too expensive, but the technology is established. This is the "other side" of the nitrogen cycle that occurs in the mud beneath the pond. Once the oxygen is gone the nitrate eating bacteria go to work. Free nitrogen and sometimes hydrogen sulfide is released as bubbles AKA "swamp gas".

You need more plants if you can't keep the nitrates in check. I have a very fast growing string algae that might do the trick. Grow that in a separate pond from the fish, harvest it often and feed it to te fish. Koi and Tilapia love it.

I wonder if that's the same kind of algae that keeps plugging up my power filter? :evil: :twisted:

rfeiller
01-02-2011, 03:06 PM
i wasn't sure if the slow sand filter might remove some of the nitrates since part of the process is anerobic, it should remove most of the polution in the water.

head rush
01-03-2011, 12:55 AM
I think the AP and HP guys in this world do this on purpose......
Like a secret shorthand....undercover communication for the informed only.
Only once you know this code can you become one of 'them' ! :? :twisted: :P :P

What do I mean ? crumbs man ! all your abbreviations all over the place.....
HSM - CP - SP - ICU - IFP - RB - GT - ANC - UC - CHOP(okay I know this one) .........and now RO ? ? ?
Besides all the rules that we have to follow..... :P .....
.........Is there a more detailed list posted that has all these abbreviations categorized ? Besides the small one somewhere that tell us that a GB is a gravel bed... ! :lol:
If not...........Why does someone with the time on their hands not record this for prosperity and for the common good of us blithering blind ones running around naked playing hand grenade volley ball in a mine field ?

P L E A S E ! ;)

And Rich......no need apologizing = You can side track my thread anytime........as long as it eventually finds it's path again, I'm not worried.

badflash
01-03-2011, 05:39 AM
RO= Reverse Osmosis.
A definition thread is a good idea. I'll start working on it. Keep in mind that acronyms are whims and not standardized. Keep us honest. When someone posts one that you don't know, ask them to clarify. Rules of usage say you define an acronym, then use the abbreviation.

head rush
01-03-2011, 06:40 AM
Thanks badflash..
The thing is...you read these in a post/thread that might be 20- 50 posts deep. To be asking anyone at that stage seems out of sorts..... so, no one asks.... and, there we go again ....ignorant as usual.
I will say thanks for stepping forward and offering to do this...... i'm sure many will add on as time goes on.
Shot !

head rush
01-03-2011, 08:10 AM
Here is a proposed plan of using the grey-water system.
I was thinking where and how could I use the charcoal in any of these stages? /or if it might even be a waste of time ?
Maybe use the charcoal at the AP side.... and let nature take it's course the natural way first.

As you can see the water will eventually drain to 3 further beds and eventually onto the main pond. Clean, healed and fit to drink..ready to be piped into the AP system...... !
Whatcha think ?

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu358/notottoman/scan-1.jpg
I've tried 10 times to resize to a smaller size... what am I not doing right?
I'm using photobucket... and this image is at it's smallest

dennis
01-03-2011, 10:38 AM
hey head rush, lol that was why i only put a few simple words up to start with to keep it simple, giving you links to check out on google to see what works in your case, yes these guys are pretty smart and good with the high tech, but i knew it could become overwhelming in your circumstance!
my friend if my comments help, a simple way may be keep doing what you are doing, some google time to see what has worked, , put up a test unit, with plants, if you can afford test the water that comes out then see what you have left, that is when you look at things like slow sand or charcoal filters
here is a link to "Vetiver Grass Technology (VGT)" being tested in guam i think,
and before any one jumps on me i am not trying to compeat with you other guys.
you are master blogers and smarter then all i just offer something for head rush to look at , it is offered as one of many plants that can be used, you other guys have given lots of true wonderful information
http://www.usawaterquality.org/conferen ... labi09.pdf (http://www.usawaterquality.org/conferences/2009/Abstracts/Rural-poster/Golabi09.pdf)

head rush i do not know your exact situation, i can only say if i was trying to do what you do and if i was on low budget !
when i consider what types of plants to use see what else the plants can be used for , JUST as one example, vetiver grass, stores the toxins in the roots, and the leaves of the grass can be used for many things from baskets to fodder for livestock, this way you might be able to even sell the grass to help recover some of your expense ( include propagating the grass to sell to land owners and governments for errosion control )
another example of use of vetiver grass, as a developing tech ( low cost and low tech ) is using vetiver for errosion control and recovery of land in such things as mining areas
to explain in more debth a possible consideration , depending upon your goals yes
use waste water to grow vetiver, it cleans water enough to then use on plants and trees ( in dirt) raise the vetiver grass and sell it as a business

I am NOT trying to give you an exact answer, i am just giving you a small humble look " outside of the box" just in case it becomes to complex looking in one direction there are other directions,

somewhere i have saved some info on another test done in california with vetiver, that shows the results of the water test

badflash
01-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Dennis,
Here is the deal. What aquaponics is about is producing useful food and other plants, not simply cleaning the water. Unless you have a use for the grass or reeds, you are missing the boat.

Lets not be putting out pie in the sky, or theories for other people to test. Put out what you have done, what works for you and what doesn't work.

dennis
01-03-2011, 02:06 PM
lol, i knew it, well i did say i would ignor all silly post.

dennis
01-03-2011, 02:32 PM
badflash,

I INVESTIGATE ALTERNATIVE DESTINATIONS.

kind of seems he is open to what ever simple way to reach his goal , now if he wants high tech i am sure he can tell me thanks but he wants high tech



i made suggestions with very proven tech

about vetiver or bamboo or ferrocement used in tank construction

by the way did you know you can eat bamboo, very good


my first post

gave info on 2 types of grass that he could investagate to use in his system

offered 2 types of final treatment if needed, slow sand , and activated or plain charcoal


low cost method of making very high quality very long lasting tanks that can be used in aquaponics

gave him ideas on 4 differant ways he can make a little money WITH his chosen dream and method to reach his goal of aquaponics

and mixed in a link to look at about how charcoal ( if he had to use )is also used in med's

Moderated by jackalope to remove possible inflammatory wording

head rush
01-03-2011, 02:57 PM
....Please friends.... play nice !

rfeiller
01-03-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't know about your reed but what I've played with is cat o nine tails. It is an aggressive Reed growing 5-6' at my house. I do not plant it, but float or weight it down. It forms a very thick mat of roots very quickly.it collects particles and builds it's own dirt. Mound of anaerobic muck. If your reeds are as aggressive I would float them, trimming them from time to time. The gravel I planted mine in became black, gasseous, and of course stunk in short time. It also ripped apart the EdPN liner. A thick rubber liner. For my Koi I use just taro now and it is basically floating.

jackalope
01-03-2011, 06:59 PM
Btw... How come you say you guys in the States are behind on this grey-water usage thing...
I thought you chaps invented the idea :?

Since most of the people who make up the sanitation codes and building codes have taken control, we aren't allowed to re-use our gray-water in most cities/counties/states. They've decided that gray-water is more toxic than sewage, so we can't have our sewer separated from the gray-water. When I was a kid, in the '40's and 50's, we ran the gray-water direct to the gardens and fruit trees - and no one ever seemed to get sick from it ..... amazing what new technology and a college education can destroy! I like your idea of using reeds to clean that water ..... if I could grow a garden here, I'd cut into my sewer pipes under the mobile home and I'd use the gray water to feed the garden and grow cat-tails in my back yard! Cat-tails are good eating, kinda like a cross between onions and garlics, as I remember. I could get away with that here, we only have a little over 100 people in town! :lol: :lol: :lol:

jackalope
01-03-2011, 10:23 PM
I have to get used to the idea that I need to conserve water.
On the property that we have bought there are 4 houses on the land.
It's an agricultural piece of 3.5 hectares. Each house has it's own septic tank..... Each household has 5+ people living in.
My first concern or job that I will have to tackle there is the consumption of water.

This isn't entirely on topic as far as waste water, but it is on topic as far as water conservation ;)
For collecting rainwater - Clik ;) (http://www.constructionresources.com/products/services/wisyfilter.asp)


Just another idea for you, like dennis was saying.

wh33t
03-14-2011, 08:08 PM
Lets see if you guys can lead me with this one...

I have to get used to the idea that I need to conserve water.
On the property that we have bought there are 4 houses on the land.
It's an agricultural piece of 3.5 hectares. Each house has it's own septic tank..... Each household has 5+ people living in.
My first concern or job that I will have to tackle there is the consumption of water.
My idea is to collect all the grey water...( water from the shower, bathroom basin and washing machine) pipe it to an outside reed bed configuration where the water will flow and heal.
This I would like to then pipe back to the individual houses for the use in flushing the loo's. (this obviously becomes black water and is never used... (goes to the septic tank, same as the water from the kitchen sink and dish washer)

The extra water coming off the reed bed, I would like to have this then go into a a few settling ponds. With water cleaning reeds and marginal water flowers purifying the water.
From the settling pond I would then have the 'cleaned' water go into the main water pond.
This pond will be for the soul use for holding water.
This pond too will have reeds and oxygenating plants.
It is this water from the last stage pond that I want to use to supply the water to my AP/Hydroponic system.
So................there you have it so far.....
Has anyone used a reed bed to 'clean' grey-water? If so i'd love to see or hear of your set up.
Please let me know if i'm crazy :roll: to even think I could do this......I believe it's possible....
I just have to get the system figured out....
Any comments? :?:


Check into Earth Ships. They have the whole process you've described built right into their homes. Great thread topic! I learned a lot about!

I'm really interested in Duckweed. I may go scavenge a bunch from the wild.

redd
04-06-2011, 07:27 AM
Lets see if you guys can lead me with this one...

I have to get used to the idea that I need to conserve water.
On the property that we have bought there are 4 houses on the land.
It's an agricultural piece of 3.5 hectares. Each house has it's own septic tank..... Each household has 5+ people living in.
My first concern or job that I will have to tackle there is the consumption of water.
My idea is to collect all the grey water...( water from the shower, bathroom basin and washing machine) pipe it to an outside reed bed configuration where the water will flow and heal.
This I would like to then pipe back to the individual houses for the use in flushing the loo's. (this obviously becomes black water and is never used... (goes to the septic tank, same as the water from the kitchen sink and dish washer)

The extra water coming off the reed bed, I would like to have this then go into a a few settling ponds. With water cleaning reeds and marginal water flowers purifying the water.
From the settling pond I would then have the 'cleaned' water go into the main water pond.
This pond will be for the soul use for holding water.
This pond too will have reeds and oxygenating plants.
It is this water from the last stage pond that I want to use to supply the water to my AP/Hydroponic system.
So................there you have it so far.....
Has anyone used a reed bed to 'clean' grey-water? If so i'd love to see or hear of your set up.
Please let me know if i'm crazy :roll: to even think I could do this......I believe it's possible....
I just have to get the system figured out....
Any comments? :?:

A very inspiring idea. I'm glad to have found your post. Using grey water is a great way to conserve water. I think your idea of a reed bed is perfect.

rfeiller
04-06-2011, 09:39 AM
Redd welcome to the forum!

how about going to the thread "a place to say hello" and introduced yourself. Thanks

Julian
04-25-2012, 05:21 AM
Ju
Lets see if you guys can lead me with this one...

I have to get used to the idea that I need to conserve water.
On the property that we have bought there are 4 houses on the land.
It's an agricultural piece of 3.5 hectares. Each house has it's own septic tank..... Each household has 5+ people living in.
My first concern or job that I will have to tackle there is the consumption of water.
My idea is to collect all the grey water...( water from the shower, bathroom basin and washing machine) pipe it to an outside reed bed configuration where the water will flow and heal.
This I would like to then pipe back to the individual houses for the use in flushing the loo's. (this obviously becomes black water and is never used... (goes to the septic tank, same as the water from the kitchen sink and dish washer)

The extra water coming off the reed bed, I would like to have this then go into a a few settling ponds. With water cleaning reeds and marginal water flowers purifying the water.
From the settling pond I would then have the 'cleaned' water go into the main water pond.
This pond will be for the soul use for holding water.
This pond too will have reeds and oxygenating plants.
It is this water from the last stage pond that I want to use to supply the water to my AP/Hydroponic system.
So................there you have it so far.....
Has anyone used a reed bed to 'clean' grey-water? If so i'd love to see or hear of your set up.
Please let me know if i'm crazy :roll: to even think I could do this......I believe it's possible....
I just have to get the system figured out....
Any comments? :?:

Julian
04-25-2012, 06:18 AM
Hi head rush
my post seems to have come unstuck. Anyway my question to you is. We are retiring to Great Brak soon and we are building a new house there. I very much want to install a grey water system leading into a small ground dam with reeds which can be used for garden irrigation and as a pond for fish and water birds. Now have you got anywhere with your design and application of a grey water system. If so are you prepared to share any of your info as we are not very far from Plett. Thanks for all forum chat.
Julian

foodchain
04-25-2012, 10:03 AM
I have/am doing something similar now with my pond. Not using grey water, but using the pond's reeds, cattails, and assorted plants to purify the water as the bioload exceeds what I can use in my growbeds. I effectively created my own nasty grey water with an excessive bio load. When I tried to use the grobeds by themselves they ended up not being enough. So a smaller pre bed if you will went in, and solved my problems. Got nice flowers too. Different plants though absorb at different rates.
Pick your plants!
In marine systems I have used all kinds of Macro algaes, mangroves, etc and even algae screens in a screen filter like setup to achieve this.
In Paddlefish production, I have seen duckweed used. Also seen water treatment plants try duckweed as well at some of the plants I worked at as a commercial diver. Why the engineers put all the valve handles at the bottom of the crap tanks I have no idea, but they kept me employed.

In MY opinion, you have a good idea, however it's not going to be for water conservation. And here's why: Look at the surface area of the water ponds you are talking about, look at your weather and you're going to lose a lot to evaporation, transpo evaporation, etc.
Now add in the pumps it's gonna take to do this, and have them big enough to compensate for the resistance of the pipes, head pressure, etc.

doable, yes. Practical, not so sure. I guess this would depend on the elevation and fall your property has. I think its a good idea, but more for general conservation as you are effectively creating a "wet land" and as such increasing environmental habitat. Though would be then in theory taking habitat from whatever is there now.

If you wanted it or not, with large bodies of water wildlife comes, this CAN be an added benefit or a nuisance depending on your view. Ducks will show up. Frogs, with all thier noises will show up. If this bothers you, you have to give this some thought. For me, I love it and bought the ducks I wanted rather than letting ferral ones move in. But you need to give it some thought none the less.
IF you have enough fall, consider a hydrogenerator. There are micro ones available that may not produce a huge amount of energy, but they help reduce the opporating costs.

SOME people in the US are using grey water for such purposes, and just not advertising it.

Bioritize
04-26-2012, 08:05 AM
If you believe it is possible it IS!!!

Go for it man. I have plans to do something similar with our new piece of heaven. We are filling our first pond right now with the seasonal irrigation water that comes down from our mountains. It currently runs through a few reed beds and into the first pond. I have all sorts of ideas I would like to try, one uses a micro hydro generator due to the fact that we have more than 100 feet of fall from the top of the pipe to where it dumps out.

Go for it bro, the more notes and pictures you take the better we can learn and help you with it.

Kaisei13
04-27-2012, 12:28 PM
Hello everyone, I found this thread while researching greywater systems and thought the idea for adding in a aquaponics systems was great. Here is a quick drawing I made of my idea and I would love any feedback (negative comments are welcome!!) you could give.

JCO
07-27-2013, 07:24 AM
Kaisei13, don't know what happened to this thread. Your post and request for ideas was the last made. Did you do anything with your idea? Let me know of the results if you did. :mrgreen: