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gosmith
11-19-2010, 01:13 PM
Hi all,

I'm just getting ready to break ground on my greenhouse build, hopefully tomorrow, weather permitting. The 12' x 20' GH is a gable design covered with GH film (not sure what kind yet.) I'll post pics as I go along. For now, here is the preliminary layout for the system. FT and GB's are built from lumber and lined. FT is 4' x8' x 4', filled to 3'. There are five flood/drain GB's to start with. Each is 30" x 48" and 12" deep. They will use bell siphons of some type. The sump is under the GB's and will use a low power pump in order to be able to run it from a future PV solar array. The plan is to finish the build over the winter for a start up in early spring.

I'd like to be able to raise talapia eventually, but don't know if I can maintain the required temps over the winter, so we'll probably start out with yellow perch and see how it goes. We want the system to be self-contained, so won't use grid power or fossil fuel except for an emergency generator. Space heating will come from a biochar stove that uses wood chips from the county road crews. I dry this in racks and store it in recycled dog food bags.

I also have an old propane water heater that will be converted to heat with another biochar stove. This will be connected to the FT with a heat exchanger and a low-power inline pump from a solar thermal system. I'm also planning to connect a cool water line to a heat exchanger from an existing large trout pond, which is uphill from the GH. I'm hoping to use this to maintain cooler water temps during hot summer days. All of this is experimental, of course, so we'll probably have to make lots of adaptations as we go.

Comments and advice much appreciated.

Gary

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TObVfNzkOZI/AAAAAAAAABY/OKpwW6nHhpI/s800/AP_Layout.jpg

JCO
11-19-2010, 03:24 PM
Welcome to the show....pull up an easy chair, relax and stay awhile. New voices are always a welcome addition to our family..! Whatever questions you have on you mind, this is the place to get the answers so pick a topic of your interest and start your own thread and Enjoy. :mrgreen:

urbanfarmer
11-19-2010, 03:38 PM
Welcome!

rfeiller
11-19-2010, 11:30 PM
welcome, you've put a lot of thought into your project.

gosmith
11-21-2010, 11:16 PM
Not sure what the welcomes are for. I've been posting here for a couple of months now, but thanks anyway.

Well, the project is now under way. I started by drilling two sets of holes in 5 foot lengths of 2" Sched 40 PVC pipe. These hold 8" lengths of 3/8" rebar. The pipes will be buried in the ground and cut off at 3 feet above grade. They will hold the 2x2 studs and will hopefully stay in the ground when we have a windstorm like the one last week that had gusts up 80 mph.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn5bKd6NEI/AAAAAAAAAB0/6IDaAbhrips/s400/5457.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn5baGCQvI/AAAAAAAAAB4/OFiOT4ShXgE/s400/5461.jpg

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Here we are breaking ground for the new greenhouse. That's my daughter on the left, reminding us that we'd better not be thinking about blocking the view from her dining room window with a bunch of ugly plastic sheeting. That's me on the right in the brown sweatshirt. I'm holding my hands up trying to show her how big the fish will be, but she's not really paying attention. That's my son-in-law with the post hole digger. It's always a good idea to let the younger guy do all the heavy work so he can gain valuable experience.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn7Yh9WlkI/AAAAAAAAACg/woICWQDFzA8/s640/8238-3.jpg

The rock wall behind me is the lower end of the 100' trout pond. It has about a hundred coastal cutthroat trout in it, some of which are up to two feet long. This is fed by a stream coming down from high on the hill. We're hoping to be able to put in a hydro generator at a later date to supply all our power needs. We should be able to get a good 75' of head in a 3" pipe.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn-mZr3PAI/AAAAAAAAACk/UZASZMiZGsw/s500/cutthroat.jpg

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Here's the view from one of the dining room windows. Not sure what my daughter's problem is since it's such a nice level spot. We take a moment to discuss our options.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn54NXAN7I/AAAAAAAAACY/hXpZiT8qVP0/s640/8262.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn54OVnm4I/AAAAAAAAACU/FB040wzGEb8/s640/8256.jpg

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Here we are at the new building site, a little farther to the east. My grandson helps out by fetching wooden corner stakes back from the dogs, who didn't seem to approve of where we had originally placed them.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn54PaGNbI/AAAAAAAAACc/c9RY7M0mhuA/s640/8263.jpg

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My grandson lives to fish. He can't wait to catch his first AP fish and demonstrates his mastery over all things fishy by standing in the middle of the trout stream. He's not quite as excited with the idea of eating veggies grown in fish poop, but he does think the worm bins will be cool. His older sister has now decided to have Grampa help her make some worm bins for her school science project. How do I get suckered into these things?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn533QTe5I/AAAAAAAAACQ/IlBJNxZGvjk/s640/8243.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOn5bj7DIZI/AAAAAAAAAB8/dbbXQ-3srH4/s640/8220.jpg

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More pictures later.

Gary

urbanfarmer
11-22-2010, 12:29 AM
Nice pictures! I can't wait to see how it all turns out. :D

gosmith
11-22-2010, 02:54 AM
Here are the construction details of the compost rollers. They are made from the 42" wide 1-1/4" plywood ends from recycled cable spools. The framing is 2x2';s and the outside is covered with 1/4" mesh galvy hardware cloth. The lid is held in place by a couple of steel springs from an old desk lamp and trimmed with the edges of some left over stove pipe. The hinges are 1/2" loops of stiff steel wire, sorta like you'd use for a key chain. While this one is made to roll on a track made from 2x6's, two of these will be mounted inside the GH on 2" steel pipe axles through the center hole. Hopefully they will generate a bit of supplemental heat in the winter along with some CO2 for the plants.

Right now this one is cooking along at well over 100 degrees internal temp a week after loading, even though the outside air is down in the 40's and lower (down to 25 tonight.) It is filled with mostly alder and maple leaves, along with our daily kitchen waste, some chopped up comfrey and buttercups, the last of this year's lawn trimmings, and a few large bags of recycled coffee grounds from a local Starbuck's. The axle pipe could also be plumbed and connected to a heat exchanger to add some warmth to the fish tank tank in the winter months. I'll probably experiment with that at some later date.

Gary

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo1amNY9uI/AAAAAAAAAC8/J1rb1_wdOgo/s640/P0005411.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo1bL8zeBI/AAAAAAAAADA/ndruZ1LClrQ/s640/P0005422.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo1bWFxUoI/AAAAAAAAADI/PLkrfRQjHpw/s640/P0005426.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo1bmSRiyI/AAAAAAAAADM/Stjt_CtSk0s/s640/P0005433.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo187nxiZI/AAAAAAAAADg/uo4UB1qy5pg/s640/P0005442.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo18yo8lQI/AAAAAAAAADc/dBdk60t7FSQ/s640/P0005441.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo18joaGqI/AAAAAAAAADY/Xd92WO_GmiY/s640/P0005440.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo18qQxjuI/AAAAAAAAADU/yKMcptGazdA/s640/P0005437.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo20j_fg4I/AAAAAAAAADo/eZeb9_fiOMU/s640/P0005449.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOo20_-B6FI/AAAAAAAAADs/Dfdlf27yq90/s640/P0005452.jpg

davidstcldfl
11-22-2010, 04:16 AM
Great looking picts in your earlier post...
LOL Gary, you get excited about a flat spot in your yard. Here in FL, I get excited when I drive to the central/north part of FL, where the 'ridge' of FL is located. There, we have mountains, that may be as high as 100 feet or 'more' !
We have a mountain called....Mount Dora, it's about 160 feet above sea level.... :lol:


Cool design on the rolling composter. Everyone hates to turn the piles... :roll:
As it's being rolled...does the stuff fall out the screen once it's decomposed ? Do you lay a tarp down to collect it ?

Big Al
11-22-2010, 05:49 AM
hi gary, everything is looking real good so far, you've got a lovely view there. ive found a project for
next spring (worm bin's). your layout look's good, good luck with your build. can't wait to see the
finished product. best wishes Big Al

gosmith
11-22-2010, 02:34 PM
Thanks David and Big Al.

On the compost roller, I keep the leaf litter fairly coarse and it stays fairly clumpy as it finishes, so I don't think a whole lot will fall through. This one's a prototype, so we'll have to wait to find out for sure. A tarp would work for collecting whatever does fall through, or you could put the tracks in a place you want to garden in later. This one will end up over the top of a 3' x 12' worm bin made with two rows of cinderblocks, so whatever falls through will become a tasty snack for the little wigglers. We get a lot of rain here over the winter, so I have the roller covered with a strip of carpet. It's porous enough to let a bit of water drip through to help keep the compost moist. Too much rain cools the pile down too much and washes the nutrients away. BTW, most cable companies and cell tower construction companies love to get rid of empty spools for free.

LOL. Not sure what we might call Mt. Dora around here. "Dora's Speed Bump" maybe? "Dora's Bug Bite?" Probably wouldn't bother to name it.

That's Sauk Mountain in the pics. At 5,537 feet, it's only about half the height of the mountain behind it, Mount Baker, which is 10,778 feet. Both are volcanos, although only Baker is still active. Great place to ski.

Gary

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOra4Pez5xI/AAAAAAAAADw/EfcpLF5dHnU/s800/Mount_Baker.jpg

urbanfarmer
11-23-2010, 01:42 AM
Wow I'm jealous of your location :twisted:

gosmith
11-23-2010, 03:33 AM
HA! You wouldn't be jealous of the freak cold spell we're having right now. It's 18F outside right now in November! The Seattle area has wrecks and traffic jams all over the place from the snow and ice. The weather service says it could get down to a record 2F overnight at our location. It would take some serious heating and insulation to keep talapia going in a greenhouse with temps like this. At least we don't get hurricanes and tornados.

Aside from current conditions, this area is a pretty nice place to be. Far enough from Seattle to be nice and rural. Winters are generally mild, and the summer temps stay pretty reasonable. Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands offer great boating, fishing, whale watching, etc., yet the mountains are only minutes away. I love it here.

Gary

urbanfarmer
11-23-2010, 10:20 AM
I would rather deal with extreme cold than the hurricanes I have lived through!!! :lol: Plus, nothing beats that view... at least not around here...

gosmith
11-23-2010, 02:26 PM
This is a beautiful place. Here's a link to some pro photographer's photoseek page that has some nice scenic shots of the area.

http://www.photoseek.com/wausa.html

And here's a shot I found from the top of Sauk Mtn., looking towards Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands, which you can't quite make out through the haze. That's the Skagit River (pronounced ska-jit, named after one of the local tribes). It flows between those two hills and into some of the most fertile farmland in the country before dumping into the Sound. The property location is just off-frame in the lower left, across the highway from the river.

Gary

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TOwvjAdUVTI/AAAAAAAAAD0/Dn8MLRfp8FI/s640/Sauk_View.jpg

keith_r
11-23-2010, 04:50 PM
beautiful country.. good luck with the setup!

gosmith
03-30-2011, 07:49 AM
Hi all,

Been a while since I've posted. Hope everyone is doing well. Life's kept us fairly busy the last few months as we prepare to move completely off-grid, but we've finally been able to get back to our 12' x 20' GH build. Here's a few construction pics from last month.

We started the walls by sliding 2x2's into the previously placed 2" PVC pipes that were embedded into the ground with rebar cross bars. The painting crew got all of the lumber primed and painted in advance.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkO1UJh7I/AAAAAAAAAFM/vGAwqb7dTzw/s800/P0005485.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkPsIEDJI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/ICmMZrTef6k/s800/P0005494.jpg

Next came the 4x4 frame running down the middle. These are attached to buried pier blocks with elevated saddles. The 4x4's also provide framing for the door.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkQ67vfwI/AAAAAAAAAFY/Z9fb3uy8EK4/s800/P0005484.jpg

A 2x2 truss was attached to the 4x4 beam with 3" deck screws.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkNPYj6hI/AAAAAAAAAFE/UF4z5sCrVb0/s800/P0005487.jpg

More 2x2's span from the walls to the center support.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkQI2BapI/AAAAAAAAAFU/NDk6kT1lA34/s800/P0005500.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkRAj8JjI/AAAAAAAAAFc/oTFlybtPKmw/s800/P0005501.jpg

2x2 rafters

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkRuuhMiI/AAAAAAAAAFg/9EU2EHpDV5w/s800/P0005506.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkSuh6KjI/AAAAAAAAAFk/llIxpLZ6RjM/s800/P0005508.jpg

1x3's were attached across the tops and bottoms of the PVC pipes with 2-1/2" deck screws, further anchoring the walls to the pipe. We also added some additional diagonal bracing to the rafters to stiffen the whole roof structure.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkNrS7hfI/AAAAAAAAAFI/5qJ4_aMz1dw/s800/P0005514.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_jwAadvK5G2M/TZMkMeI8xzI/AAAAAAAAAFA/SOBWApkca30/s800/P0005520.jpg

The entire structure turned out to be fairly rigid. Hopefully, when covered with GH film, it will be able to withstand whatever nasty spring gales yet to come. There will be 2' x 4' vent panels along the bottom edge of the south facing wall (attached to the 1x3's.) and similar panels at the top of the north side of the roof. These will be framed out of 2x2's and covered with GH film. Hope this will provide enough ventilation, along with a louvered window going in the east wall and the door on the west wall which has a sliding glass panel.

I bought the GH film last weekend from a local horticultural supply house and hope to get it installed shortly. It's called Dura4 and is 6 mil, 4 year UV stabilized, with 91.6 percent light transmission. It was $180 for a 20' x 100' roll, which will be enough for both this GH and another yet to be built.

Total cost of the framing, including lumber, pier blocks, PVC pipe, rebar, deck screws, and paint was $279. The recycled door and louvered window were free. Together with the 6 mil GH film and a 1000' roll of 1/2" plastic banding to staple it down with, we ended up at a little under $500 total.

Gary

grimsteph
03-30-2011, 03:37 PM
Amazing project!

urbanfarmer
05-09-2011, 02:38 PM
Did I mention I was jealous?? :lol:

gosmith
11-29-2012, 01:03 PM
Hi all,

Got the "Just Checkin'" email from admin (hiya JCO) and realized it's been a while since my last post. My AP project has been on hold for the last year, but the GH is completed, at least. There's still some work to do on the ventilation system , but overall, I think the low-budget design worked out pretty well. It held up just fine last winter despite some high winds and heavy snow. No damage at all. I haven't started on the FT or GBs yet, but the GH was nice for starting bedding plants and even to grow some cantaloupes over the summer. I had hoped to have everything finished by now, but life and health has a way of getting in the way of good intentions and best laid plans. Had a few frantic personal issues to deal with, but things are finally looking up. Been working on our off-grid mini-home, adjacent to the GH, during the summer and hope to get back to the AP system in the spring.

Meanwhile, we've been trying to adapt ourselves to a low-energy, self-sustaining lifestyle in our regular home as we prepare to make the full transition within the next year or so. Got our power bill down to $36/month, but that's still a lot more than I'd like. I've designed a modest battery based PV solar and wind system, but have yet to start purchasing any components. It won't supply all our needs here, but should be fine at the new place, especially once there's no other option.

We did a lot of food growing this year, along with a bit of community outreach and networking, and feel we have a pretty good barter system worked out to be able to supply quite a bit of our needs. I'm amazed at how many people around here seem to be thinking along the same lines as we are. There's a lot of local interest in seeing a working AP system if I could just manage to get it all finished.

We've had pretty good results growing produce in standard raised organic beds, using lots of home-made compost mixed with the agricultural-charcoal we've been making, and hope to be able to adapt some of what we've learned to our future AP grow beds. At this point, we could probably go quite a while without a trip to a supermarket except for some essential non-food items. (Toilet paper is NOT a luxury item.) We made lots and lots of tasty fermented beverages this season, using free pulp leftovers from a local organic fruit farm. These include raspberry, strawberry, blueberry, and fresh cider, along with our own abundant wild blackberry harvest. Very potent and turns out to be an excellent barter item, especially for getting local smoked wild meats and fresh salmon. Still using gasoline and propane, but hope to have that problem licked with yeast-based bio-fuel and wood-chip based bio-char once we get completely off-grid and no longer have to punch a time clock and worry about commuting. Still experimenting on that front, but have managed to run a 5HP engine on home-made high-octane go-juice and cooked lots and lots of our meals on the stove-pipe biochar stove I built a while back and also on a converted propane cooker, both using the free wood chips provided by the county clean-up crews as fuel.

Guess that's it for now. Will try to post some pics when I once again have access to something besides this lame 56K dial-up. Hope everyone is doing well on their own projects, or at least having a good time thinking about it all. Best holiday wishes to all.

Gary

davidstcldfl
11-29-2012, 01:15 PM
Nice to hear from you Gary.... :)

Mully
12-13-2012, 02:44 PM
gosmith,

I live one county north of you and was wondering what kind of fish you are using.

oldSarge
06-01-2016, 11:34 AM
Forty-one months and some days later . . . any progress, pictures? Looked like a great start and I'm sure with the effort expended at that time you must be upnrunning now.

Deuem
06-02-2016, 12:04 AM
6 year old thread and all the photos for me are gone. echo, echo, echo! I think there is an intermission.

Jason
06-07-2016, 10:09 AM
6 year old thread and all the photos for me are gone. echo, echo, echo! I think there is an intermission.

I am not sure which photo's you are referring to as I do not see any that are missing.

Jason

oldSarge
06-09-2016, 12:11 PM
The pics I was referring to were any new since the last post before mine. I can see all the original pictures here.

Jason
06-09-2016, 07:18 PM
Ok, now I follow you. I agree it is a shame as it would be nice to know what happened since they last posted. Hopefully nothing bad. :eek: