Finally, up and running!

[jackalope]

I can finally say I am out of the aquarium business and into the aquaponics business ........ today I put the last of the Goldies into the fish tank and completely dismantled the equipment in the 10 gallon so I can clean it up in anticipation of hopefully purchasing some Nile Tilapia this spring/summer. I've got enough equipment for one fry tank, but I'll have to outfit another for a second tank, as I want to have (eventually) 3 different kinds ..... Nile, Aureus, and Mossambique - not for crossbreeding, but for purity in the line. If they're crossbred, I won't be able to breed my own, so I'd be having to ship new ones all the time ..... I'd rather breed my own. Years ago, when I was heavily into Tropical Fish, I used to breed Platys, Swordtails, Guppys, Bettas, and Gouramis ...... the latter two are the hardest to breed, but the most graceful of all when courting and breeding ..... all that is to say that I think I will be able to breed Tilapia as well ..... with a little help from Dr. Axelrod, Jack and the Internet :lol: :lol:

My system is mixed ....... the upper section is like this Clik ;) (http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/11plan01.htm), but I've modified it some to make it a F&D system, as well it will eventually be about 21 cups instead of 11 .... the extension is my next project, since I've finally got the system the way I want it. Up on top is mostly lettuce and herbs, and maybe a tomato or two..
The second level is two grow-beds about 21"x 15"x 6" which are fed by the bottle system above. They each hold 9 cups with cukes, squash, watermelon, bush-beans, onions and tomatoes. both grow-beds have no-holes drains in them which act somewhat like a F&D system, and which empty directly into the bottom level.
The bottom level is the 50 gallon Rubbermaid Fish Tank with a dozen of the largest Goldfish I could find for under $.50. It will take two years for these to make it to edible size, so that's why my next system will be using Tilapia. I'll be on the lookout for more Goldies every time I go to Billings or Great Falls (The LFS in Lewistown charges $.33 for 12 cent babies and minnows). I figure I should be able to put about 35 to 40 young in there until they are about a year old, then I'll separate them into two or three FT's to grow them to their full size. It will be interesting as time goes on ....... especially during the Winter ! All that, and I'm also going to build some vermicomposting beds, and then take a stab at BSFL. That way I'll be growing food for us, food for the fish, and food for the plants. Waaayyy cool :!: :!:

[JeffW]

I built 3 of those hydroponics and they work well, speaking of the hydroponic using pop
bottles. Matter a fact I have my own designs too because there is no rule of law
on how to go with them. There is a way to make them F&D by simply leaving
overflow pvc off then simply use a flexible hose in that spot where the overflow
normally goes, that causes the F&D to happen. I will make a video of that and post
it since I am getting all my stuff out now anyway.

I can't wait for your pics, show and tell 8-)

[jackalope]

I built 3 of those hydroponics and they work well, speaking of the hydroponic using pop
bottles. Matter a fact I have my own designs too because there is no rule of law
on how to go with them. There is a way to make them F&D by simply leaving
overflow pvc off then simply use a flexible hose in that spot where the overflow
normally goes, that causes the F&D to happen. I will make a video of that and post
it since I am getting all my stuff out now anyway.

I can't wait for your pics, show and tell 8-)

I didn't leave off the overflow PVC, I just didn't drill the vent hole in it ...... that way it acts as a siphon and drains the bottles and the PVC ...... tight now it fills and drains about every 80 seconds, I'm thinking as I add more length, this will stretch out farther and farther. I've got an oversized pump ..... I can't find the box ..... I must have burned it, but I think it's 350gph ..... as far as pics, I'll have to study up on that and figure out how to do that with Linux ..... I'm not the geek type, I'm just a user ;)

[JeffW]

Got ya..I am uploading a video of mine right now. Takes a few minutes on DSL but
as soon I it's done I shall link it here.

Last year I went straight about 15 feet with 1 inch thin wall and about every foot with
the cups then used larger pump. The auto siphon did not work so well with straight inline
setup so I cut it apart later and made it with 3 rows instead of 1 long one and it worked.
I like flood and drain because of the oxygen that get's to the root zone.

The worst prob was the roots plugging the pipe as they filled out. I am still trying some ideas
out to solve that one. I like the way Sheryl did her setup and wonder if that is they way to
go using cups in an NFT system.

[wolfracer]

That system sounds really cool. Can't wait for updates.

[jackalope]

Got ya..I am uploading a video of mine right now. Takes a few minutes on DSL but
as soon I it's done I shall link it here.

Last year I went straight about 15 feet with 1 inch thin wall and about every foot with
the cups then used larger pump. The auto siphon did not work so well with straight inline
setup so I cut it apart later and made it with 3 rows instead of 1 long one and it worked.
I like flood and drain because of the oxygen that get's to the root zone.

The worst prob was the roots plugging the pipe as they filled out. I am still trying some ideas
out to solve that one. I like the way Sheryl did her setup and wonder if that is they way to
go using cups in an NFT system. I use cheap 12 oz. plastic drink cups (get them right after a holiday, and they're about 1/4th the regular price), and I use a pencil soldering iron to poke the holes ..... I put about 8 holes in the bottom and about 21 in the sides ....... since the water comes up from the bottom, and the water exits from the bottom, I only go up about an inch or an inch and a half from the bottom on the sides. I've found that I am going to have to jack the cups up a bit so I don't swamp the starts ....... they waterlog quickly, and then I gotta replace them. I'm cutting little pieces of furnace filter to set the cups on inside the bottle, which I hope will deter the roots from getting down into the supply .........

[jackalope]

That system sounds really cool. Can't wait for updates.

I like it so far, except one thing ...... when they empty, they gurgle like a percolator, but very loudly, and since I live in Montana and it's still freezing and snowing here, (below zero the past two nights), mine is inside our living quarters so the first few days takes a bit of getting used to, now we don't even hardly notice it ;).

[JeffW]

:lol: Yeppers the coffee is almost ready..gurgle gurgle splash :lol: At least I can tell
the pumps working when I here that sound. come to think of it it was after I started getting
into all this that I was told I have IBS :roll:

just a red neck with a bad back and gurgling shop so bare with my goofy ways.

Anyway here is 1 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9jxHJxNYx8

And 2 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHgpZeImC2o

[jackalope]

Good Vids Jeff, I especially like the flexible autosiphon hose ..... I'll have to figure out a way to incorporate that into my setup ...... right now mine is rigid, and yours is adjustable I would like to have that flexibility in my setup ..... for the size of the cups, if nothing else ..... right now, I use 12 oz. cups, but if I want to, I think I could use 16 oz cups, which would be taller and bigger around - more root room before going down into the PVC system. All is good ;) Also, I'm going to use 1" thickwall for everything but the bottle cap rings, thinwall is harder to find here, and thickwall is much cheaper (by 2/3) than thinwall. I believe I read somewheres or saw a vid somewheres, that suggested that some of that landscape stuff that prevents roots would stop the roots from getting into the pipes if it were put into the bottom of the cup to cover the holes ..... something to experiment with, I guess .......

[badflash]

Just nit-picking, but that isn't an auto-siphon, just a plain old siphon. Auto-siphons start their siphon when water reaches a certain level, then they rapidly drain to empty the bed until they lose suction. Then the cycle starts over.

Cool setup though. Nice job!

[wolfracer]

Just nit-picking, but that isn't an auto-siphon, just a plain old siphon. Auto-siphons start their siphon when water reaches a certain level, then they rapidly drain to empty the bed until they lose suction. Then the cycle starts over.


Watching the video it looks like that is working as a loop siphon to me.

[jackalope]

That system sounds really cool. Can't wait for updates.
g
I like it so far, except one thing ...... when they empty, they gurgle like a percolator, but very loudly, and since I live in Montana and it's still freezing and snowing here, (below zero the past two nights), mine is inside our living quarters so the first few days takes a bit of getting used to, now we don't even hardly notice it ;).

[jackalope]

Just nit-picking, but that isn't an auto-siphon, just a plain old siphon. Auto-siphons start their siphon when water reaches a certain level, then they rapidly drain to empty the bed until they lose suction. Then the cycle starts over.

Cool setup though. Nice job!

Jack, ..... the water gets to a certain level, it drains the bottles and the pipes (grow-beds) until it loses suction, and then it starts over ..... and it does this automagically, without any help from me ..... kinda sounds to me like it would be called some sort of an autosiphon. Sorry for mis-naming it, I just thought that something that automatically drained the system was called an autosiphon. You've got more experience in this stuff than me, and I'm just learning the technology and the terminology, so I'm glad to bow to your expertise and stand corrected, it's a plain old siphon with a flexible hose which makes it adjustable :).

[mommyhen42]

very cool setup... I have the plans on this ole puter somewhere for just what you are talking about, but it has a rigid siphon. I definatly like your siphon setup better... gotta play with this one... I hate it when I start toying with more ideas than my poor wittle head can deal with... NOT...LOL

Have you tried to use those rigid square gallon water jugs??? Just thinking of larger size for bigger plants...Hmmmm
They sell those at the 99 cents store... perhaps I will have to try that one... I actually like this idea better than the deep water culture I am currently using in the other room.... I could use some of the holes that are already the lids without having to scrounge some lids from Home Depot...

So many ideas... so little time... hehehehe

and sister in law just gave me a home depot gift certificate..... Shopping!

[JeffW]

Just nit-picking, but that isn't an auto-siphon, just a plain old siphon. Auto-siphons start their siphon when water reaches a certain level, then they rapidly drain to empty the bed until they lose suction. Then the cycle starts over.

But that is exactly what it does.. ;)

[wolfracer]

Have you built one of these with more than 4 cups? They are a really cool design. I might build one for my son and daughter inlaws aquarium.

[badflash]

Jeff, maybe its just the angle on the video. What it looked like to me was that you controlled the level by raising or lowering the tube. I couldn't see any cycling of level.

[JeffW]

Oh I see ..let me explain.

I was simply showing that the level can be "set" but once it is set the auto siphon
mode works. I was using a clamp just to hold hose so it did not slide in once I
picked a level I wanted. Does this make sense?

So yes once the hose is set then it will seek that level then as it reaches it the water
will flow and will not stop until the air is sucked in behind it.

And yes I made one the same way with 3 tubed...let me take a picture of that. It is not
mounted to a res but I can show the way it looks. WOW hands are frozen here I forgot
to shut the door to shop and it's 31/F..heater is on high now...I do not like winter!

brb with picture :)

[badflash]

Just a heads up with tubing. Small diameter tubing (<1") will bio-foul pretty quickly. Set things up so it is quick & easy to remove and clean the tubing. I plan on using bell siphons on my system to avoid that. Large diameter tubing on a loop siphon is tricky to get to auto-start and it usually just trickels and maintains a constant level.

[wolfracer]

If we use clear tubing that should help with maintence as far as seeing any fouling right?

[badflash]

Yes, that will help, but watching the flow & cycle is probably better. There is an old saying that the best fertilizer is the farmer's shadow.

[JeffW]

Just a note..

clear allows light in so algae will grow allot quicker than dark that is why
they paint those cups on hydroponics with water base white paint. The cups develop
algae fast in direct sun light and no paint, most pop bottle are clear to start with.

[JeffW]

WOLFRACER here is the one with more than 4 cups

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t238/nosmojeff/Picture2009.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t238/nosmojeff/Picture2004.jpg

[wolfracer]

How's plant growth in this system? Are you doing mostly leafy plants like lettuce or have have you done anything bigger? I would think that with some creative engineering you could craete a system that would almost be a work of art (like a sculpture) . Very Cool thanks for the pics.

[mommyhen42]

I told you I was going to play with your idea about the siphon...
I had 2 F&D beds that I was lazy when I set them up... yeah I know but it was a really bad Fibro day and I really should have been in bed instead of fiddling with growbeds... I used a hot iron to burn 2 holes into 2 of those 7gal cement mixing trays from home depot... I put the holes nearly side by side, figuring that if they didnt work I could always make them larger for pvc pipe... (I was using 3/8 in black rubber tubing) Anyway, I figured that I could just use one as an input and the other as an overflow. put screen over both tubes and set the pump on a timer to run a half hour every 2 hours...

Anyway, it didnt take me long to figure out that was a bad idea as the water wasnt really circulating through the gravel the way I wanted, after all it was pretty much going in one hole and then right out the other while maintaining the height level... My Tomatoe clones hated it... refused to root, instead insisted on just sitting there and rotting under the gravel while the tops still looked pretty good... Not a way to clone your favorite Tomatoes..... I was just wasting my time and money...

So I was feeling pretty good yesterday so I decided to play around with it. I extended the water outlet hose so that it sprayed water over the back of the bed, and made the loop with the other tube.... and It worked!!! running like a dream now! The lettuces I left in there seem to be loving it, as they are noticably greener today than they were yesterday. Those sick tomatoe clones, I put into another F&D system that was working textbook and in 2 days have a TON of new roots!!!

You saved my clones and saved me time and effort in that I dont have to remove the lettuce, gravel and dismantel the system to fix a problem that I shouldnt have made in the first place!!! In other words... you let me still be lazy but in a creative way and fix the problem that would have otherwise taken me the whole day and a run to home depot to fix!

So not I have 6 of my favorite variety of heirloom tomato without having to buy 6 more plants... gotta love it!

[JeffW]

I hear ya Sheryl you are as us X-smokers say "kicking ash" :lol:

OK first I want to mention some things I learned about plants and "roots".

Sheryl said refused to root, instead insisted on just sitting there
and rotting under the gravel plant roots MUST breath as well as be able
to uptake nutrient for plant. When a plant gets a balance of "oxygen and water" it thrives!

Also yes I grew tomatoes in those cups as well as green peppers and hot peppers and
believe it or not corn. Problems for cups and Ebb and Flow are the roots will crawl and seek that
nutrient and plug things up so you need to watch that. A root will always go DOWN not UP.

The flood and drain systems (And this is not good or bad it is just my preference)
is cool because it not only is constantly refreshing meaning when it refills there is
a "fresh batch of water" so it is never stale (make sense?)

Also (now watch this one this is important) each time the
water goes DOWN guess what happens? air (fresh oxygen) is drawn down into the cup
(or whatever it might be) because of water displacement in the pvc pipes.

let's look at it like this..the water was in the plant container then the flood and drain
went to "drain mode" so water get's sucked down and out so what follows the water?
That's right "AIR" because it is a siphon and that air does comes from the top as it
is sucked down along with that water that is leaving right? (the gurgle sound).
So now the roots get that much needed oxygen that we were talking about.

I look at roots in a flood and drain the same as lungs. It is all about breathing in and out.
Plus those roots get fed a food solution in FLOOD mode as well right? Perfect :D

Think about this statement:
A plant does not need soil to stay alive :o oh really? :shock: What does it need then?

[jackalope]

Anyway, it didn't take me long to figure out that was a bad idea as the water wasn't really circulating through the gravel the way I wanted, after all it was pretty much going in one hole and then right out the other while maintaining the height level... My Tomatoe clones hated it... refused to root, instead insisted on just sitting there and rotting under the gravel while the tops still looked pretty good... Not a way to clone your favorite Tomatoes..... I was just wasting my time and money...

Those sick tomatoe clones, I put into another F&D system that was working textbook and in 2 days have a TON of new roots!!!



My understanding of this is that since the water wasn't circulating properly, the roots weren't getting any/enuff oxygen. I read somewhere that the reason you can't grow plants hydroponically (or Aquaponically in our case) without adding oxygen (an air pump, down-flow, spraying etc.) is that the roots will rot without oxygen to keep them fresh ..... they stagnate. So, what you experienced is that by adding oxygen to the grow-bed water by spraying the water thru the air, your lettuce perked up, and, had you left your tomatoes there, they would have also .... but since you moved them to a grow-bed where there was an abundance of oxygen (and nutrients), they are now flourishing! Congrats!!

In my lower gravel grow-beds, I have run the inflow down under the gravel, and drilled a siphon-break in the pipe coming down, so that when the upper siphon draws out all of the water in the bottles, it also breaks the siphon in the lower grow-beds (which doesn't affect the no-holes siphons), and they in turn are allowed to fill with air to the lower water level. when the upper bottles begin another drain cycle, the trapped air is forced into the lower grow-beds (which, by this time still have about 3 inches of water in them) and the lower grow-beds are thus aerated additionally by the trapped air.

I currently have an 11 bottle system up above, but I'm planning to expand that to about 21 bottles ..... then, as I can find more bottles, I will add another 21 bottle system above that (I have a good step-ladder), so I will have the potential of growing about 60+ plants in a 2' x 4' space. I told the wife that this summer, I plan to line the whole 70' wall with the same type of systems .... she freaked at the thought of over 1000 additional gurgles, so we stretched our credit card a little further and bought an older mobile home to fix up and live in for our final years ........... plus, now that we have a mobile home, she came up with the idea that instead of replacing the rotting floor, we just shore up the walls, and make the floor a mass of Tilapia tanks to provide nutrients for all the grow-beds I have planned ...... ......... which is great, because now, I'll be able to line the other 70' wall, and the 20' rear wall, and a couple/three units down the middle and ......... and.......... and .......................

NOTE: (this ex-saloon we live in is over 100 years old .... just think of the beer and drinks that have been spilled on this floor, not counting the fact that this has been a house of ill repute, bars, restaurants, buffet, ice cream shop, hotel, etc., etc., ... this floor has really seen it's day ........... so far, I've dug down thru as many as 4 layers in my endeavors to replace parts of the floor) Hmmmmm, I wonder how many Tilapia will fit into the tanks I can get in a 20' x 70' space with all the plants growing above ........... hmmmmmm ............. hmmmmmmm ..................... ;)

[JeffW]

Jackalope can't wait to see this operation.


1000 additional gurgles!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Who knows you might l end up having to give tours some day and charge for feeding them
as they come plus the education fees. I am getting allot of interest in my area for compost
now and 2 years ago I tried to market this and people were not interested or seemed like
it was just some strange product but that was "before high food prices" so now they all
want a garden see? And who knows what else 1 or 2 gurgles out back?

Actually the gurgle sound has become addictive to me for some reason much like listening
to compost tea brewer swirling and sloshing I feel "life" all around :lol:

[mommyhen42]

With the origional system the plants would receive oxygen to the roots when the flood cycle finished. but the shortest time I could find a timer to do was 30 minutes, so the system would flood for a half hour then drain and reflood 2 hours later. While some plants seem to do ok in this others do not seem to do as well and forget about making clones this way it just rots the stems. The 4 flood and drain tubs I have in the greenhouse work this way and do fine by it, I also have set up 5 "dutch buckets" that run the same way and do ok. But I am in the process of redoing those systems to make them cycle on their own.
With luck that will fix any problems I have so far. Funny the onions, celery and garlic seem to love things set up this way...

yeah, gotta go kick some ASH... LOL it has been a long time since I heard that one, but I have been a nonsmoker now for soooo long...

[JeffW]

Just a thought:

If the solution (or water) get's too warm like let's say 90/F then the oxygen available to root
drops off and when your working in a green house or hoop barn heat can build up fast. I had this happen to me and could not figure out why the roots were brown and cruddy when I was giving them such a good soultion. Then I found problem was that the ambient air around the system was heating up containers and pipes so by the time the water arrived with the pump the water was way too warm to be absorbed and the plant could not drink it , I would not want it either when
it is 90/F I would puke it up.

cold water can hold more oxygen than hot water