Bioponics

[badflash]

I've just coined the phrase, or so I think. Basically this is the umbrella name of any system that uses living things to produce nutrients that are delivered to plants in a liquid form. Aquaponics is one of the systems that would be included, but this forum is strictly for fish-less systems. I think this has some real potential for vegans and anyone not particularly interested in complications involving fish.

Advantages are that higher nutrient levels can be obtained because fish do not need to live in the water.

Two basics animals will be the trial balloon for my experiments. The red worm, and the black soldier fly. The worms will be more acceptable in a home environment, but the BSF has far more potential, especially used in conjunction with aquaponics.

Here is how I imagine a basic system. A worm bin is set up elevated above a sump. The sump is tied to a conventional fill & drain gravel bed, Nutrient Film Technique (tubes with constant flow and no substrate), or even Deep Water Culture with proper dilution. Feed the worms (or BSF). The tea flows into the sump, and the sump provides nutrients to the plants. The pH of the sump can be adjusted to what ever the needs of the plants are.

Worm or larva harvests can be sold or fed to the aquaponics system. This way your turn garbage into plants and high protein feed. I can envision a neighborhood coop system, sort of like community gardens where people can recycle their food waste and grow wonderful organic food.

Jump in & lets talk about the pros and cons of this idea, and get a few going to see how they work.

[badflash]

After doing a little research I found this:

Bioponics: Organic Hydroponic Gardening - Dr. Luther Thomas is an independent researcher and the owner of Earth and Sea Bioproducts, Salt Lake City, Utah

So I have the definition write, but I didn't coin the phrase. Oh well...

[jackalope]

Interesting thought, my question is whether the worms and the BSFL can produce enough "tea" to keep up with the aqua-system :? To produce that much "tea," I would think you would have to have acres and acres of BSFL and worm beds ....... of course, since I have raised neither, I wouldn't know .........

[badflash]

You just need to size the beds to the amount of nutrients you have. The answer though is that you need less space for worms than for fish. You also need a lot less support for them. A 30 gallon rubbermaid tube can hold 15 pund of worms, and they can eat about 10 pounds of waste a week. BSF's can eat 10 times as much and produce much more "tea".

Anyway, this is the early stages. We just need to give it a try. The numbers look very good to me though.

[JeffW]

Great post I am subscribing to this thread because I have been messing with compost
tea since day I built my first hydro. The problem I had was (and they told me this)
I am trying to feed plants a tea that should be used with soil not water based system.

Hydroponic based on water and nutrient solution
Aquaponic based on soil (I believe is correct?)

Now you are talking about a system needing the elements based on a soil grown
produce (but I know it is not soil). Is that that correct? If so then why not use a F&D
system using compost tea? Doesn't the bacteria still need ammonia?

I was also told that compost tea is not able to sustain microbial life in water without
a food source such as "molasses" and oxygen to keep them alive. I wanted to be able
to grow food using my own tea that was what I was after anyway. I can make great tea
right now with more than one brewer I built and we spray it or use it as soil drench.

[badflash]

Forget everything when it comes to this. No animals in the process, so we don't need to care about biological conversions. Plant eat ammonia just fine. The water cycle is completely separated from the worms. One system is feeding another.

[mommyhen42]

ok, I'm confused :?:
Guess I will have to sit and listen in on this one... sounds interesting

[badflash]

Please explain your confusion. You may be over thinking this, it is really simple.

Worm tea is well known as about the best fertilizer there is. They can produce a lot more of their fertilizer than fish grown in the same space. A worm bin can go through 10 pounds of food a week. That is a lot more than you'd feed fish, so you'll get a lot more nutrients. This is basically just hydroponics with worms as the nutrient source.

[JeffW]

we need pictures ;)
Can you make a video explaining this?

I love new ideas but sometimes I am a little slow to get it the first time :?
Please be patient with us we are willing though :D

[badflash]

Can't take a picture of something I haven't yet built :oops:

Just think of a traditional hydropinics set up. Sump, pump, grow beds. Instead of chemicals we use worm tea. That is it in a nutshell. The worm bins don't need to drain directly into the hydroponics, it is just convienient to do it that way. You can always just drain the tea and carry it to where it is needed.

[JeffW]

k...but when or if u do :D this is exciting!

[mommyhen42]

Lightbulb moment.... LOL
I got it, yippee!
I am really doing something similar without even realizing it...
I have 2 deep culture tubs that I dont have any fish in, but everytime I clean a filter, and I clean the filters in the tub pond with the tilapia and crays alot, due to the bag of hanging grass and the grass I feed the crays gunks up the filters pretty quickly.
The lettuces love that stuff, so I guess I will add some worm tea to the mix and see if things really go crazy under those lights

[JeffW]

So we can feed the roots with worm tea?
If this is all possible and works then this fella is going to be happy camper :o

Making a video and will post it soon for questions I have for anyone. Maybe some one can
see something I do not see. For 2 years my cousin and I have been trying to find out if it is possible to use a tea in a hydro system but many have told us that it won't work. I am not so
sure though since worm tea is not the same as "compost tea", close but not the same.

Sheryl I am trying to start a MEETUP near town and have got some replies. Can I send you
the link? This is on craigslist so it needs to be updated all the time after it expires but it is free.

[mommyhen42]

sure go ahead. I have 2
http://www.meetup.com/RiversideDogTrainers/
http://www.meetup.com/sustainable-aquaponics/
We have 22 members in the aquaponics group but not much participation yet... sigh

[badflash]

I saw your video. Just use worm tea with your system.

:D First off, let me say that I do know that we are not talking about Aquaponics here....OK? Now then, with that in mind and, yes I can see where this system could suite someone with very limited space, however:-


Worm tea is well known as about the best fertilizer there is. They can produce a lot more of their fertilizer than fish grown in the same space. A worm bin can go through 10 pounds of food a week. That is a lot more than you'd feed fish, so you'll get a lot more nutrients. This is basically just hydroponics with worms as the nutrient source.

That little statement in RED is where I have to back up...you might be able to use the tea from the worms to grow veggies, sell the worms, sell the worm dirt and the worm tea, but you can't eat any of these items and that’s where the fish come into play.

The whole object of being self-sustaining is to produce as much of your own food as possible without going to the store to pay an outrageous price for possibly contaminated and definitely chemical filled meats etc from the store….FISH..or did I miss something..?

[badflash]

If you go back in my posts, you'll see that I discussed vegans. Not everyone eats meat. If you check the economics of aquaponics, you'll also see that over 2/3rds of the income comes from veggies, not fish.

Don't get me wrong, remember I'm a tilapia breeder. I'm not trying to replace aquaponics, just provide a side avenue to broaden the appeal a little. One of the draw backs to using fish is that some plants need more nutrients than the fish can provide. Using worms will allow for higher concentrations of nutrients than fish can tolerate. Worms may not be something you want to eat, but my tilapia sure do. Worms also sell for $20 a pound, so I can use that money to buy some good feed for the fish.

I am planning on having separate loops in my system. One with fish and one fishless.

Sustainable systems don't run in a straight line. They have lots of branches you need to work with. I like the idea of turning garbage into food.

:lol: OK...OK...consider my ass kicked....not a problem.. :mrgreen: :lol: :lol:

[JeffW]

Did lots of searching online and reading and asking questions. So far the word is that tea can
not be used in a hydroponic system although we are really talking bioponic system.
Supposedly bacteria (microbes) end up and die in the water thus they turn to slim
and the chambers and pump clog the system.

I have yet to see a solid case that proves that though so I am not giving up. That is
why this thread is here right? To research it?

[badflash]

Absolutely. I don't believe that it will cause any more problem than fish though. I plant to dilute it to optimum levels anyway.

[JeffW]

I emailed Dr. martin Gent and he was kind enough to reply to me. I am taking his word
for it since he is an expert in his field.
http://vvv.caes.state.ct.us/Biographies/GentMart.htm

Dear Sir,
Your probably a busy man I know but can I ask you a question? Is it possible to use
worm tea or better way for me to say that is "compost tea" made from worm castings
in a hydroponic system? I hear the microbes die then a slim clogs the pumps and just
makes a mess of the hydroponic system. But I am so sure and the reason I ask is
because I have not seen any solid evidence that this is always true since everyone
makes tea with so many types of different compost.

Anyway thanks ahead of time :)
JEFF

His reply:


Dear Jeff,
You have correctly identified on of the problems with using organic amendments
in hydroponics systems, namely they can clog pumps and filters. CropKing is
a commercial supplier http://www.cropking.com/index.shtml?ref=google
that has done a lot of work to develop systems that can use not-completely-soluble fertilizers.

A more serious problem with organic fertilizers is to get the proper mix of nutrient N-P-K etc.
You should have your compost tea or worm-casting tea analyzed to see what else
needs to be added.

Martin Gent

[badflash]

Yep, just what I thought. There isn't anything in my tea to plug anything up. I plant to test, but when doing aquaponics, you pick plants to match your nutrients, not the other way around.

[badflash]

Oh, BTW, using fish is using organic amendments, and my tilapia poop is a lot more cruddy than worm tea. We get around that by using course substrate, not sand or vermiculite.

[JeffW]

Sorry this is a long one...

I think he is referring to microbes as the problem not the nutrient solution
itself. I can see the microbes in tea being a problem that is why it is imperitive
to spray compost tea within 1-2 hours after oxygen is off and brewing is done.

But worms are not brewed? I know that worm tea has bioligy yes but I have seen
it bottled up sale online and terracycle sells it
http://www.terracycle.net/main_lawn_garden.htm
as a "LIQUID NUTRIENT"? So if it is bottled you would think that IF there is microbes
in that that they would die from lack of oxygen and when you opened it the smell
would be really bad right? I don't know that is what I am trying to understand.

And if I am not already confused enough here is some
thoughts to ponder.

This statement about NPK and "proper mix"?
If you buy a premix nutrient for let's say a hydroponic (expensive too in my view)
it has the mix already made. I don't debate that since they all use these nutrient
solutions to run those systems. (I know we are still trying to talk bioponics)

My stubbornness and growing up around old fashion life styles. For example my cousin
and his sheep farm. We find hundreds of red worms after it rains under these old ply
wood boards laying out behind barn. This area is real soggy and run off from barn is
normal because it is lower area than the sheep pens. This water has some real heavy
duty manure wash off. Anyway we were told that we will not find red worms in those
conditions because it was toxic and even bad for us since maybe there is "E coli".
Sure maybe there is some but I am sure there is some at local burger joint too right?

My point is this I guess....My cousin is 45 years old and has been out in this stuff for
years and years. He grabs worms sometimes with bare hands puts them in his can and
uses them for his worm bin but he never get's deathly sick. Not only that but those worms
are strong, red and healthy! They are in direct contact with this run off yet we are
told this is not good for worms that they can not survive.

We laugh because the grassy field that is even lower below this has an amazing
lush green pasture and sheep eat it for years and years. The run off goes down
the hill and acts as a "nutrient solution" as far as we see it. So I think worm tea
is no different that it is a "natural" nutrient like this run off. We even pondered
trying an experiment and using that 4 unit hydroponic you all saw in the video.
We would leave it back there under some cover and plug it in on a timer then use
that run off from the ground (small amounts) in that 4 unit container with 4
tomato plants in pea gravel on top and watch what happens. Monitoring the tubes
for clog and just see what comes of it.

Also I am going to use another one and make "worm tea" and see what that does.
This will be 2 different setups trying 2 different things.

[badflash]

There was a video posted on this site of a fellow using worm tea rather than fish. That is what got me started. "growies" appear in any aquatic system. You just have to account for them and make sure they don't stop the works.

I am sure your experiment will go well. The worm tea I am using is the natural drippings from my bins. I don't ferment it. I've recently been using it to root cuttings and ity works fine. I also see no scum or anthing else.

[JeffW]

I am following you, also glad you are doing it because not many people
are or are not trying this. I was fired up when I saw your post about the
idea because for some reason this concept has not been talked about much.

So with that said I need to get a worm bin going inside so I can test some things
out and not only that but I need an "indoor" project for the winters or I go bezerk
waiting for spring and summer.

I need to go out and get some red worms and bring them home. I think what your
doing is the way to go too. My goal is going to have a worm bin then a drip pan
for the worm juices, next I will use small amounts mixed straight into the water.
Might use one of these small units I have. Any I agree all of this stuff needs tending
too now and then.

What do you think of that terracycle worm juice? (I bet it works)


UPDATED MARCH 13
I am going for it, heck they sell the stuff all over the place so it must work!
1. http://www.barerootshydro.com/store/nutrients/earthj.htm
2. http://www.australianhydroponics.com.au/ideas/worm-tea-for-hydroponics-46/
3. http://www.australianhydroponics.com.au/types/worm-castings-for-hydroponics-45/

[badflash]

Jeff, remember that video you posted "Hydroponic recirculating solar powered system"? He was using worm juice!

[JeffW]

really? dude you rock I am going to check it out again :D

this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2hm5o5NjOs

[badflash]

Yep. Check at about playtime 3:50.

[JeffW]

yep he is using worm juice alright.

I was out prodding in garden tonight (its just dirt and compost right now) and surprised
to find a bunch of regular worms so i got about 50. I know these are not red worms yet
they can hang out with me until Monday when I will get red worms from the farm.

this is going to be interesting, I have made a lot of compost tea but never had any
worms so I am very excited to try this worm tea.

I take it we just add some worm juice to water? This is not going to be like brewing
regular compost tea I imagine, no molasses all that fun stuff?

[badflash]

All I do is soak down the beds once a week just before I feed them. What comes out the bottom is worm tea and is ready to go. I don't know how much to use. We probably need to measure the nitrate and phosphate levels in the system and adjust accordingly. Once the systems are up and running I'm sure we'll develop a feel for it without testing.

[JeffW]

I keep checking around and I got another reply yesterday. Some say this is OK and
some say not good idea....that right there is enough reason to keep plucking away
at this concept. I was think it would be interesting to take a barrel or PVC grow bed
container that is setup just like an aquaponic system but instead you have a slow
but constant drip coming from the worms tea tray. This can be mixed into water
before it is drained into the beds using a wick or maybe a timer, just tossing ideas
in my head.

The tea would ofcoarse be drained out as it leaves the beds and not reused. This
is only an idea IF a recycling tea does not work well for some reason. Or just another
concept of how someone can grow food.

Anyway here is latest email from Rutgers EcoComplex

Hi Jeff,
I don't see any issue with you using a terracycle product for your hydroponic system..
Just keep 2 things in mind, 1. It's fine as long as you don't need to know the exact
amount of nutrients you are adding. 2. Make sure the terracycle product has both
macro and micro nutrients..A good way to make sure is to cross reference the list
of nutrients on the "nutrient solution" bottle with that of the terracycle bottle.

Cheers,
Manisha

Manisha V. Patel
Laboratory Manager
NJAES Water Testing Laboratory
Rutgers EcoComplex
1200 Florence-Columbus Rd.
Bordentown, NJ

[badflash]

I plan to re-use the water. Worms put it in, plants take it out.

[JeffW]

I will reuse mine too this was just another idea in case it becomes a problem.

Today we dug up a load of compost red worms out on farm from sheep pen.
Now I will have 2 bins with earth worms in one and red worms in another.

not sure if I should mix them or not into one bin.

[badflash]

Keep them separate. The species compete. Only one will win.

[JeffW]

I went back and read this entire thread this morning. My interest in worms being fed garbage
and plants feeding off of the worms is such a powerful concept. After reading and refreshing
what I knew already I spent 2 days last week in garden probing around just for self interest.

The red worms (ones with the stripe bands) found ONLY in compost bin next to garden.
I toss all garden scraps there end of season. As for earth worms\night crawlers only found
in garden soil which is right next to compost bin..not a discovery I know that but what is interesting is the compost is next to garden and if I moved 1 foot out away from compost
bin and tried to find a red worm it was not going to happen. Each time I dug I would find a regular earth worm then go back 1 foot in the bin and find red worm.

Like having 2 types of cattle in a field but each group has particular interest of what it
it see's as a food source.

Red worms in compost (old decaying plants\garbage)
Earth worms in soil (organic matter and dirt)

[badflash]

Night crawlers are tough to breed in captivity. They only do well when it is cool. Red worms do fine when it is warm, which is why most people grow these. There is another variety called the european night crawler that seems to do as well as red worms.

[JeffW]

Red worms are all I am going to use you are right. The reds are so much more active
and aggresive I can see why they can eat that food so fast now.

3 pounds of worms eat 1 pound of scraps per week you say?
That is all I needed to hear :)

Now I am going to decide on the bin and sump area and how I want that to work.
I am thinking why not let the draining worm bin go simply drip into the sump tank below
and have the pump in the sump on a timer.....good idea?

[badflash]

Show us a sketch.

[JeffW]

[attachment=0:2eoyyf0r]grow bed.JPG[/attachment:2eoyyf0r]

[badflash]

Looks like it should work. The only issue is that quite a few worms end up in the sump, so put some sort of screened container in the drain path to catch them.

[JeffW]

I am not going to give up on my aquaponics even though I managed to kill every cotton pick'n fish at least I have had success,with a cucumber having just opened up 3 flowers and it is only 14 inches long :shock: Fish died but not in vain, I have ended up with lettuce, sugar snap peas and cucumbers all growing.

So until I get a grip on the fish system the grow bed has been transferred over and is online in the "worm tea" tank. This tank is also tied into my 4 unit hydroponic so the res feeds that plus the grow bed....so far so good .

Soon I will be making my own worm tea but the goal is making 100% pure worm tea from 100% castings. I don't want just a guess work mix of stuff draining out of worm bins so now we need a "worm casting machine" which I shall make soon. Meantime I will use liquid form of that terracycle worm poop, we picked up a bottle at "Target" store to get me by.

Don't want to use it for long though since it has some addictive in it. My goal is to be 100% organic with worm tea.

Follow up then is my aquaponic plants that started in aquaponic grow bed are now being fed a timed on\off cycle of "worm tea". So for about 4 weeks I have been reading and searched and stuck hands in horse crap, got muddy and smelled like crap end of the day but the result is I have learned a great deal about red worms know much more about what I am dealing with. The worm bins are working great and no bad smell. Good news also is worms have not tried to escape means I do not need to feed some Robins to guard the doors.. :lol:

Took some time after sneaking around cousins sheep farm, poking and prodding in my compost bin outside by garden and recycling center down the road. But I have captured about 500-700 compost reds and they are now in a bin. Then in bin number 2 is I have about same number of manure reds so these 2 colonies are separate.

Today was a good day..I had to transfer the compost red worms to bigger 10 gallon bin for a permanent home because they were in a small container. As I dumped small container in the big one I was happy to see hundreds of them reds gathered in a big squirmy squiggling balls all happy and active just like you see on internet :D

Wife can laugh all she wants but at least I got my kids under control 8-) pffffffffffff

[attachment=2:2bmatlfd]4-12-09 Cucumber aquaponics.jpg[/attachment:2bmatlfd]
[attachment=1:2bmatlfd]Picture2 002.jpg[/attachment:2bmatlfd][attachment=0:2bmatlfd]Picture2 007.jpg[/attachment:2bmatlfd]

[mpugh5@aol.com]

sweet jeff, looks like you've got the right attitude and also a game plan that's got to be watched by us lurkers :arrow: :idea: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8-)

[JeffW]

Thanks :D I am still learning :D

[wolfracer]

Jeff you got pics of your worm bins? Also what has been your best source of info on this subject.

[JeffW]

I will get some pics soon sure thing :)

Really liking this worm bin deal and if I knew it was so easy I would have started it last year or so. The thing I want to know or try since I can not really find any hard evidence (good or bad). Is can we grow veggies in these systems using a worm tea? Badflash has a bunch of good lessons in red worms too and I think we are lucky to have him here. JCO is also a veteran and it is nice to have access to these fine folks right here on this web site ;)

Ok and now my rambles section: :lol:
They sell hydroponic solutions along with claims all over the internet selling products that are labeled saying it can be used in hydroponics but then I discover that some of these have UREA and that is only going to work in "soil". So products such as these are selling things that are NOT designed for pea gravel or Auaponic based media.

My point is that if these companies and business can sell these things and claim they work then y golly I see no reason why we can not use a worm tea based nutrition. So far I am happy with the results and it might be that the sun is up longer and kicking the plants in the butt to grow but since I have turned the aquaponic bed over to the worm tea I am seeing a change and it is a good one. No hard claims here so this might be in my head..only way to see is to push on and keep an eye on it.

I used a small "rock tumbler" and cleaned out the container then put some egg shells in with some round stones and WOW that worked great for adding egg shells to the worm bin! It was pure powder..very cool since they say use some egg shells in worm bins to help the pH and worms use it for the digestive system this is a great discovery. Heck maybe I can start selling egg shell powder to worm bin peeps now.. :lol:


As for sources...well that is a tuff one because I have so many bookmarks and read so many views out there. Some times claims by experts online end up with disputes in the information the are putting out and these folks have master degrees! One says compost tea is great stuff then I see a book another expert has says "compost tea can be dangerous" and their is not solid evidence of it's benefit.

So what I do is go to "common sense isles" of the brain and take a breath. Then I think back to the days of Grandpa's farm or the days we had a compost pile by the garden, just simple ways of living but healthy and effective. It can help me to make a choice sometimes when I get away from all the TMI out there and just do it and stop debating with people around me.

Example: we were at a farmers market and selling compost one year. This guy starts asking if we "inoculated the compost". He was an expert see? So my cousin and him started "debating" and later I told cousin that I do not do that anymore, if someone likes it good and if they do not then "move along" I am not wasting my time trying to convince a city boy that this former sheep poop\hay is really good stuff. I already know since we use it and we are producing some mighty fine and healthy looking veggies year after year. Anyway you all get my drift right?

I say compost is good end of topic. Compost is not new either and when you think about it rain water runs off the barn lot into the clover pasture it makes grasses and clover green and alive so I say "gee that is like tea so it must work" Hydroponics was going on long before white man came to the USA and in Babylon they had hanging baskets of "vegetables" growing and being fed with aquaducts or whatever you call them I forgot.

I think there is enough info right here on this web site to know all you need to know about worms. It is like making compost in a way, you mix the right amount of this and that and then use your nose,eyes,senses and these can help you determine what you need to take away or add to or simply start over maybe. There is no experts really, only those willing to try and to keep on try if they want it bad enough.

I play 4 instruments at age 51, I play fiddle,mandolin guitar and I played 5 string banjo years ago until I had surgery on right hand. People say how did you learn all those? Simple answer is that I wanted to be able to play them "bad" so I kept on trying even after mistakes you keep on practicing until your happy. Even then I still make mistakes today..but I love it!

Whew....not bad for 1 finger typing.. :lol:

[wolfracer]

For one finger I would say awesome. LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:

[JeffW]

worm bin (number 1 of 2) no drain valve yet i just lift the bottom and drain it into a container.
[attachment=2:3kx11dww]Picture2 051.jpg[/attachment:3kx11dww]
[attachment=1:3kx11dww]Picture2 052.jpg[/attachment:3kx11dww]
Tea i use in grow beds
[attachment=0:3kx11dww]Picture2 064.jpg[/attachment:3kx11dww]

[JeffW]

[attachment=2:8rajm416]Picture2 054.jpg[/attachment:8rajm416]
[attachment=0:8rajm416]Picture2 076.jpg[/attachment:8rajm416]
[attachment=1:8rajm416]Picture2 049.jpg[/attachment:8rajm416]

[badflash]

Looks pretty lush to me. I think this is ready for a full scale test.

[JeffW]

If this weather here ever stables out..I can't wait to get it outside with full sun.

[wpbullock]

Very interesting topic, BadFlash.

I may be even more crazy than you because I have been thinking about picking up roadkill and putting it in a rotatable cylindrical tumbler up over my actual pond in my back yard (1/3 acre) and letting the flies lay eggs on it and when it gets tumbled every so often, the maggots will fall into the pond and be eaten by the fish.

I also have read a lot of the posts in this thread and will read the rest tomorrow but I have to ask if sometimes it doesn't make more sense to plant in dirt? The fish and the nitrates removal makes a lot of sense to me (aquaponics) but the idea of the worms would seem to make more sense to me if you raised the worms for fish food or for sale, and used the worm castings as fertilizer on conventional dirt beds. After all, I don't see the same compelling need to remove any nitrate-like contaminant from the worm farm. Plant waste from the kitchen and from the garden could then be used for worm food.

Love the thought process, though!

Have you ever done any reading about this sort of closed farm culture on the Heifer Project website? They talk about having a milking cow and generating cooking gas with the manure. Putting goats in a pen above the tilapia pond and the 80%-undigested goat poop drops into the pond for the tilapia to eat. Worms are grown to eat excess manure and fed to the fish or chickens. The goats are fed that huge grass called elephant grass and what they don't digest (I guess ruminants don't actually digest a lot of what they eat) drops in for the fish. The pond is drained and dredged out periodically and that is spread on the garden to improve the soil. Reading this article is what got me going on the fish tank in the green house idea. I never really thought about the aquaponics aspect until I talked to Jack.

I look forward to hearing the ongoing saga of your project.

Wes

[JeffW]

certainly nothing wrong with growing in good old soil, I am a big fan of gardens myself. Nice thing about aquaponics is the use of water is low and less waste, pretty much self contained. If your garden needs water and your in a city like me you really pay for it then you pay again for each gallon you get charged you also get charged again as sewage. Now I use a 150 gallon tank and capture rain water off the roof for the garden and besides the city water (though they say it is clean) has many of the same chemical disruptors that are causing problems in Potomac river. We are really backing our health into a corner.

At many of these places, it has been associated with known or suspected
endocrine disrupting compounds in waste water effluent, which are not removed
during standard sewage treatment, and in runoff from farming operations.
These compounds can include estrogen from birth control pills and hormone
replacements, pesticides and fertilizers used on crops, and hormones from livestock operations.

SOURCE:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115302.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080208115302.htm)

What ever plants absorb from soil becomes a part of our bodies and this is another reason I like the idea of being able to be "off the grid". Besides if HR875 passes the garden might be illegal and we will have to hide when we grow our own food. How to hide my garden will be a chore but looks like I might have to "disquise" it so you can not see it from the road.

[badflash]

Nothing crazy abouyt exploring possibilities. What is crazy is doing the same failed experiment over & over because it seems like "the right thing to do".

Black soldier flies seem like the ultimate in converting bio waste to liquid fertilizer. Red worms come in 2nd, but do not need as much heat. This fishless cycle has a ot of potential.

[wpbullock]

Interesting point about the water usage and the water source. I wonder if small beds of dirt, similar in size to a small bed of gravel will actually lose any more water to evaporation than a bed of gravel soaked in water and a system that relies on water to make the tea? In a dirt bed, if only enough water is being used to supply the plants needs and no more, meaning that there wouldn't be any left to soak down into the ground below the roots and be lost, and if the environment where the plants are growing is controlled (such as in a greenhouse) then the evaporative losses would be similar it seems to me between hydroponics and growing in dirt where water wasn't allowed to escape down below the roots (soak into the earth).

Like I said, I like the idea of closing the loop and using worms or soldier flies, just wondering why the extra effort pays off to extract the nutrients from the soil making a tea and then a pump and gravel beds, etc, when it might be easier to just take the worm castings and put them on beds that are made of, say, sand, and do the process that way?

Not trying to be a party pooper here. I look forward to hearing about how things go. :D

Wes

[JeffW]

Wes your right on and worms are making a come back, at least to those willing to think about it for more than a few seconds. I am so proud of my garden soil now after years of clay it is now full of worms and has a good balance of organic matter too. About 2 years ago I collect used coffee grounds from a coffee shop every other day (two 5 gallon pails full). Supplied the coffee chop with 2 clean pails each time I returned...people sipping coffee there thought I was strange I am sure but what I did was bring those 2 pails home and dump the coffee grounds into the garden which was about 15x20 maybe? Anyway now I realize the worms loved this and now I am amazed at how many worm I see in the soil.

As for use of water I think anyway we can conserve and use sources smarter is a good thing as you mention the small garden beds and what not. Those containers gardens are a big hit now I see. Today my new metal roof arrived for my 40x30 pole barn and I am so excited to say I will be catching enough rain water to last me all summer and then some.!

Here is a thought, and many people do not think about it or are aware of the fact that a good compost will retain moisture very very well and that means less watering. This is a good compost I am talking about too nothing like the cow manure sold in bags at walmart that is not compost. That is simply a mix not even close to what I am referring to, that is why they can sell it so cheap because it has about a 90% blend of other "stuff". Our sheep compost is 100% and it can sit in the sun at 90/F all day but you move 2 inches of the top and it's damp below. ;)

Either way we live the future is changing and we that are aware of self preservation will be better off. Much like planning a trip, what will we need for the journey.

[badflash]

Keeping the worm colony reproducing requires a good dousing of water each week as the eggs don't hatch otherwise. This means you end up with worm tea as a by product. Don't want to waste that liquid brown gold, so the aquaponics route is a great option.

[JeffW]

I ran some rain water through BIN 1 today and noticed eggs all over the place inside the bin.

This is amazing, I am liking the results of the tea big time! Compared to last years efforts this vermitea right now is performing way better than what I tried last year.

I did have 1 strange death of a red worm...look at this below, really strange :shock:
[attachment=1:3ne79yao]Picture2 098.jpg[/attachment:3ne79yao]
[attachment=2:3ne79yao]Picture2 093.jpg[/attachment:3ne79yao]
[attachment=0:3ne79yao]Picture2 095.jpg[/attachment:3ne79yao]

[JeffW]

this is same worm..egg sits on it and this might be the head too
[attachment=0:3o6z68mz]Picture2 096.jpg[/attachment:3o6z68mz]

[badflash]

Worms die. Don't get caught up in the exception. If the population is good, no worries. You should get to a point shortly where you MUST harvest worms or they are over populated. After thatpoint they stop laying eggs. No future there.

[badflash]

February 13Th I bought my wife a potted orchid for her birthday. The 1st bloom was open and the rest were buds. This has sort of been a tradition with us for many years. Typically the orchid dies off after 2 months.

This year I started watering with worm tea whenever it needed watering. Here is a pic I shot last night on 6/26 more that 4 months after I got it home and the 1st bloom is finally starting to fade. Pretty amazing.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c70/badflash/P6270002.jpg

[wolfracer]

Pretty amazing results.

[dufflight]

I never had much luck with worm farms. Would forget to feed them and the heat out this way does not help. I now only grow them in my aquaponic system. They live in the grow beds and process the solids from the fish. There worm castings and juice are taken up by the plant.
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/dufflight/DSC02201.jpghttp://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/dufflight/DSC02000.jpg
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/dufflight/DSC01945.jpghttp://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/dufflight/DSC02002.jpg

[davidstcldfl]

Hi Dufflight..... :) Welcome aboard. Those are some nice looking vegies and the worms look happy .... :D

[jackalope]

Hey dufflight good to see you here, I got a question on those worms of yours ..... do you use a F&D system for that ..... IOW, wouldn't they drown if underwater full time?

You come up with some of the coolest avatars .... you must be an animation artist to get those :lol: :lol:

[dufflight]

As long as the water has a high DO then the worms will live happly under water. The GB's are mainly F&D but I find the constant flow to have the most worms due to more solids getting caught in the gravel. I find if you run the water into a raised section the worms get very active and lay a lot of eggs.
The avatar is a character from a cartoon, the net has a tonne of different pictures.

[JCO]

Welcome to the show....pull up an easy chair, relax and stay awhile. New voices are always a welcome addition to our family..! Whatever questions you have on you mind, this is the place to get the answers. :mrgreen:

[jackalope]

As long as the water has a high DO then the worms will live happly under water. The GB's are mainly F&D but I find the constant flow to have the most worms due to more solids getting caught in the gravel. I find if you run the water into a raised section the worms get very active and lay a lot of eggs.
The avatar is a character from a cartoon, the net has a tonne of different pictures.
Is this the one you use on the "other" forum now? I check in there once in a while, but don't have the time available to talk to you guys much ;)

All my worms died and went to worm heaven ...... the whole thing went anaerobic due to the heat last summer, so if I start worms this year it will have to be in the AP system, and then in the fall, they'll go into the wife's outside garden, because I don't do AP in the winter here.

[dufflight]

I think its the same avatar. I change them sometimes but they have to be re-sized. I'm member of a few AP forums. But I did get bounced from APHQ.
How cold is the winter. Not sure how low the temp can get for compost worms.

[badflash]

Welcome to the show....pull up an easy chair, relax and stay awhile. New voices are always a welcome addition to our family..! Whatever questions you have on you mind, this is the place to get the answers. :mrgreen:

dufflight is a veteran aquaponicer. He'll be giving lots more answers than he has questions.

Worms need very little air to live. When I turn my bins I always find loads of worms down in the tea. They've been there for a week and are still lively. When I feed too many to my fish, I'll often find a straggler weeks later in the tank. Lots of folks have reported worms doing well in their F/D beds. They do a great job breaking down the fish poop.

[JeffW]

This is awesome to see!

Those pictures above of the "Eisenia Fetida" worms tell me they are tiger worms and also surface dwellers which is why they can deal with shall beds. Many worms can not survive that type of condition although I claim to be no expert I know the tigers would, it makes sense. They thrive in nasty toxic conditions and the nastier the better. Case in point we found millions of them last summer in a huge pile of decomposing animal mortality (farm animal mortality) along with mix of horse/cow crap mixed into one 30x30 foot pile. It was stinking but omg the worms were all over, even 2-3 feet up on the hay poop piles. We had boots and a pitch fork so we harvested as many as we could haul to the totes in the S-10. Ok so it sounds bad but now I have thousands of worms all tucked into my bins on 2 locations in the county, and in my shop sits a 50 gallon drum full of compost and corn meal.

Those worms sell average $25 for 1 pound (1.000 K). This is a great thread because it shows the food cycle is sustainable. Worms are amazing anyway as we just found thousands of babies hatching from the cocoons in sub-freezing weather last week in the middle of winter. They were 2 inches below surface of last years old fall leaves. Fact is my hands were so cold it hurt to not have a glove on yet..babies were just as happy as could be. Took photos and quit as I was so cold.

Worms in Aquaponics makes sense now more than ever. Yep this is awesome not many post out there showing nor discussing this depth of the 2 subjects (worms and aquapoincs) No I have not seen anything quite like this.

This particular thread is should be discussed more your ahead of the pack peeps.!

[dufflight]

Some people use regular earth worms in there GB's. I've never tried this, the compost ones work well. A friend of mine had a worm farm to get rid of the horse manure. He ended up with over a million worms that would eat a 150kg+ per week. He had to keep a light on them over night or he ended up with a red worm blanket. He hasen't lived in town for more than 10 years but you can still find red worms in there yard.

[JeffW]

wow...see there ya go...the chemical companies do not want us to know. The planet has all we need to sustain growth and grow food. And by the way Australia has been one place that has been leading the way. I hope people in other countries are paying attention.

They say 1,500 to 5,000 types of worms, I use 2 types but there are more around. It is so fascinating either way. Your post had me so fired up last night I pulled out one of my old NFT systems someone gave me. I wonder if you can put worms in cups like that?

I will post a picture, I would like to try and put worms in a hydroponic system and before I was trying "worm tea" made from castings. Well why not just put fish in the tank that normally had the nutrients then put the worms in the cups. Ok I know the cups need to be fairly large or big enough for a colony of 50 or so per cup. But it is worth the effort I am going to try it. Thanks for your feedback too!

[jackalope]

Welcome back JeffW ..... haven't seen you around for a while .... glad you're back .... You've got great ideas and good vids to show us what you're up to ;)

[JeffW]

Hey there :D thank you and good to see ya. My wife says "Jeff your all over the map" :roll: and I say yea so what's new :lol:

Starting a web site of my own now it is work in progress, based on worm castings,worm bins and compost. Then other pages for education and forward thinking ideas. HA HA I am already building a "bioponic" since the other night when ya'll started talking about worms in the beds with aquaponcs. This has my mind going, I called and shared this with farmer friend and Market Maneger .We are all open for ideas but "farmers" need facts and proof or they will walk away.

One farmer near by wrote a check to the drug pushing GMO company for a total of $145,000 and that was just the fertilizer!!!!!!! The corn made by Monsanto was a separate cost. Anyone still thinks burning corn (ethanol) is a good idea needs to read that line again. Burning corn in cars and trucks that get LESS than 30 MPG, well now wonder how many gallons of diesel fuel the massive tractors used to plant and harvest and haul all that field corn? OMG I do not want to know :lol:

oh well I got worm power! :mrgreen:

[badflash]

Farmers have been suckered by big agra for a long time with big machinery, fertilizers and pesticides. This is all in the name of reducing the number of people employed to produce food.

That being said, making ethanol from corn or any fermetable grain is not such a bad idea. Nearly 80% of the corn produced is used for animal feed, mostly cattle. Cattle are supposed to eat grass and shrubs, not corn. As a result corn fed cattle are in a constant state of indigestion and get sick easily. They need cellulose, not starch.

If you take a buschel of corn, produce ethanol from it, and then feed the left over grain and yeast to the cows, they gain weight faster and are healthier than if they were fed the raw bushel of corn. Not to produce ethanol from cattle feed is just silly. You don't have to give up one for the other.

[dufflight]

I wonder how duckweed would go in producing fuel. It doubles every day. There was something I read that you get 600 kgs of protien from an acre of soya beans in a year and 6000kgs from an acre of duckweed. It also takes a lot of the sewage that goverments like to put in the water ways.

[badflash]

I wonder if that is dry or wet. Duckweed does grow faster than anything I know,, but it has so much water the tilapia fail to gain weight. For water purification it is great, but I think it would need to be dried before it could be processed. I would think it would be better as a feed than a fuel. Not much starch or fat.

[JeffW]

IMHO
Thousands of gallons of diesel burned so we can burn corn for heating and fuel is not
sustainable. Miles of plastic drain tile laid on the corn fields each year to fix the drainage problem that once never existed. 2 things wrong, one is they stopped reintroducing organic matter back to fields because (no more farms with live stock) no more manure spreaders. Next tractors and combines so heavy and big they take up 3 lanes just moving from one field to next. these compact soil like cement hence the water flows on the surface of the fields instead of being absorbed (compost is missingl). This water sits on field and a lake forms when it rains so they pour MORE money into field by using tile and guess who pays for this later? Everything has corn syrup in it now and all of the corn is GMO corn. GPS guided combines so big an operator can nap & watch movies on DVD is all based on money and and more money. We have a debt and it started with miss managing AG.
I still hear those words wise farmer said "There is a problem when start burning your food". Ethanol is losing ground here and Governor needs to quit promoting it.

Prediction says 1 of 100 kids in future will develop some form of autism. It is the food we are eating and GMO needs to be shut down. Live here in this state long enough it get's to you because we are really struggling here and it is no fun. We worry what is next that must go and pray we do not get sick. Many people lost homes due to no insurance and no job so eating healthy is a MUST!


David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people


http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol

[jackalope]

Wow JeffW, I haven't kept up with the way things are farmed nowadays .... thanks for the eye-opener ....... I grew up on a small farm, and we used the manure from the milk and beef cattle, sheep, chickens, and pigs to fertilize the garden ..... we farmed with a walk-along tiller and a small tracked grader to level it out after harvest ..... I hadn't had any idea how things worked with composting, it just worked!

Big AG (Monsanto, ConAgra and others) is taking over all facets of food production, including fish farming. In Tilapia, Salmon and Trout and others, they use things like 'Ocean Pout Anti-Freeze', 'Human Cytomegalovirus', 'E-Coli baths for fry and 'Simian Virus 40' (Green Monkey Virus) to "enhance" our fish and make it more 'resistant to disease' and more 'tolerant to colder climes'. What are the long-term effects of these injections, baths, hormones, steroids, etc? Who knows, because the FDA refuses to do any research to protect the public, instead, they allow the Big AG companies to do the research, 'report' their own findings, and the FDA uses that data to decide whether or not it is fit for human consumption. Not only do we have to contend with the genetically engineered fish, but the fish food is contaminated as well. Cattle that have been 'disposed of' because of Brucellosis, Mad Cow Disease, pigs with Trichinosis, chickens with Avian Flu, are, with FDA approval, ground up into 'bone meal, blood meal, animal by-products' to be fed to the fish because the feed companies (owned by Big Agra) have determined by their research, that there is no effect on the humans who eat the fish. Many laws have been passed to prevent the small farmer from making a profit by growing 'clean' veggies, cattle sheep, pigs, and fish, all sponsored by ...... you guessed it! ....... Big Agra lobbyists :!:

All of this is nothing but Corporate Greed that will never stop unless the FDA goes back to doing the job it was intended to do (protecting the American Public), and lobbyists are prevented from having any contact with the politicians (i.e. junkets, vacations, fishing/hunting trips, campaign donations, etc.) - in other words, "it ain't happening in my lifetime nor yours."

End of Rant :!:

[dufflight]

Another problem with farming is the size and horsepower of tractors. We now have 600hp+ tractors pulling rigs that were once pulled by machines a lot smaller and they wonder why they go through 1000ltrs of fuel in a shift. I asked why they don't pull 2 rigs eg disks and then a cultivator. Most look at you funny. But the tractor would not even notices cos its waisting a lot of HP.

[JeffW]

It is frustrating yes..farmer friend said to me "I know why they do that Jeff because they were told to". They are not farmers they are pawns or worse addicts addicted to GMO drugs and too afraid too change. It is ALL based on money all of it. The corporations wave they flags and preach patriotism yet they could care less. As for pulling 2 harrow plows with 1 tractor these addicts just do what they are told.

I capture 500 gallons of rain water each time it rains off the metal roof of pole barn. One day guy walks by asks me "what is that and what do you do with all of it" :roll: Well let's see where do I start?

[JCO]

This is already being done by many of the members here and the different usages of the collectibles has been mentioned in many of the post :mrgreen:

[Bioponica]

I'm new to this forum and have enjoyed reading your posts for some years. I'd like to introduce myself and say a comment or two about my experience with aquaponics and bioponics. My name is David from Altanta. A couple years ago I developed a small aquaponic system called the Farm in a Box. This was fun, and a huge surprise when it got picked up by the New York Times and Good Morning America. The idea was to create something for kids as an education model. Today I set one up in a charter school 2nd grade science class. It's a thrill to see children's faces light up when you talk about fish and fish pee and veges and algae and worms, etc. They had a class full of educational "toys" to keep their attention; it helps when talking science at that age for sure. They're impressionable and eager to embrace the mysteries of the world to fill their wildest imaginations. For that reason, the Farm in a Box was a gift. It doesn't grow much food but it does provide entertainment and opens the mind, and for many of us that's where it all begins.

Despite being a big fan of aquaponics I was compelled to learn ways to overcome some of those nagging limitations; namely lack of phosphorus and minerals for growing tomatoes. This year I started a new company with a top shelf engineer and set out to conquer. I spoke to Nick Savidov and James Rakocy about this and started on a path of bioponics a year ago, without knowing it had a name. Now we're full on and I tell you it just keeps getting better. It started with putting worms into rock beds and adding worm teas, but then I learned that the Chinese were fertilizing their fish ponds with alfalfa. Wow, how bout that?

Since then I wake up every day to the amazing possibilities of nutrient cycling. Who would have guessed the obvious? Mayans, Aztecs and Chinese maybe but few in the post WWII industrial era have been able to separate logic from custom. Petro fertilizers and mined minerals are the big lie we've been fed for so long. So is store bought fish food. With a bioponic approach it is possible to create complete fertililizer leachates from organic matter by submerging waste into water and allowing it to decompose. From this we can directly fertilize plant beds, grow duckweed and raise algae plus zooplankton and other organisms that feed fish organically. And this is a sustainable practice that will hold up even when the days of manufacture and shipping fertilizers and fish food are behind us. Feeding fish meal to fish is not any more sustainable than using fertilizers. Feeding even soy based fish food is wrong too and for a number of reasons, not least of which are GMO's and farming and processing inefficiencies.

Duckweed is an ideal fish food that is far superior to soy. What's more is that it can be grown off of household or farm waste, pelletized and stored for years to feed fish and livestock. Maybe salmon won't be happy but why raise fish that are not practical for farming anyway?

Has anyone seen the Finnish study that shows how urine from one person for one year is adequate to produce 2500 tomato plants and 2.4tons of tomatoes? Works the same with grass, straw, chicken poop and table scraps. Just need systems designed to make this possible. That's what we're working on now and I trust with a bit of crowd wisdom, we'll all be there before you can say "peak oil."
bioponica.org
[video:2542r5j8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RdoXPAEzA&feature=player_embedded[/video:2542r5j8]

[rfeiller]

welcome to the forum Bioponica,

Rich

[keith_r]

welcome to the forum bioponica.. how about some pic's?

[urbanfarmer]

Welcome David from Altanta! I have some ideas of my own on the subject, some of which need to be verified experimentally. I look forward to exchanging thoughts with you on the forums. Happy DIY'ing! :D

[johnsuede]

have you considered just adding worm tea to an existing system? I mean just brewing the tea and adding it to the water with the fish? Vermicompost is nice and high in trace minerals aside from the bacteria. Just wondering

[rfeiller]

johnsuede, i am very familiar with worm tea. i have over 200 worm bin containers from 5gal buckets to 4' flow throughs. i found in my experiments that consistent releasing of a steady amount of effluent form the (27)-5gal planted worm buckets produced a good result without having to deal with the set up and addition of "worm tea". there is still considerable discussion on the proper ratios and additives to produce a viable consistent product. one that encourages the growth of the right organisms.
you are dealing with aquatic organisms that may not be too keen on having buckets of "tea" dumped on them abruptly altering their water chemistry.
not trying to discourage you, you may have success with it. I would be interested to hear about your results.

Rich

[johnsuede]

hey rich
I come from the planted aquarium hobby. My search for a natural fertilizer for my tanks has brought me to the world of aquaponics. This opened up a whole new world of diy fun for me. I have goals of setting a small aquaponic set up in my home where I would be able to 'join' my two hobbies of gardening and tank keeping. For me, this would be the ultimate hobby. I also have worm bins, just 2 (probably a few years in the hobby behind you :)) but they produce quite well for me. While I know that castings compost mixture is heralded as a sort of holy grail for terrestrial gardeners, I was curious about the effects on a fish tank environment and how that in turn would effect the productivity of the soilless section of my aquaponics set up.

What about the idea of allowing muslin bags of vermicompost to 'steep' in the holding tank for a more gradual release of nutrients, rather than the abrupt version I mentioned above? What are your thoughts?

200 bins, thats very impressive. You must have outside contributions to run that many, which is pretty cool. I imagine harvest is an ongoing thing at your house. Good job!

[Bob Vento]

Lightbulb moment.... LOL
I got it, yippee!
I am really doing something similar without even realizing it...
I have 2 deep culture tubs that I dont have any fish in, but everytime I clean a filter, and I clean the filters in the tub pond with the tilapia and crays alot, due to the bag of hanging grass and the grass I feed the crays gunks up the filters pretty quickly.
The lettuces love that stuff, so I guess I will add some worm tea to the mix and see if things really go crazy under those lights

I do something similar as well. I replenish my deep water raft system from the fish tank water which comes from the grow bed that has worms in the grow bed rocks. Then I top off my tank with rain water. The raft plants are growing great although I do provide constant aeration and I have a very small solar pump that circulates the water a couple hours a day if the sun is strong enough.

Regards,
Bob

Are you all aware of this company? I ordered one of these for my fry to develop.
http://www.backtotheroots.com

[rfeiller]

a method that works very well: if you research out adding worms to your drain and fill aquaponics grow bed or biofilter (which is what i would recommend if you are more interested in aquatic plants) and set it up with a bell siphon that can be easily done in a 6" deep tray add the worms and the biofilter can be your sump and the "worm" filtered water would be returned via cascade of some sort for oxygenation into the planted aquarium.
in another life i prodeuced thousands of discus and usually kept one amazon sword per breeder tank. some of these single swords filled 90gal aquariums. i kept them planted in plastic pots planted in steer manure. id did very frequent water changes that eliminated the buildup of nitrates, minimum 50% every other day

[johnsuede]

this is a neat idea. I will have to look at it. Thanks for the tips.

[kerirussell63]

Its very interesting that you have posted about "Bioponics", I think you will definitely do this experiment perfectly and hope to be successful in your project.




organic hydroponic gardening (http://www.humboldtssecret.com)

[Roger L.]

Won't Vegans consider the tea an animal (worms) byproduct?

[rfeiller]

Won't Vegans consider the tea an animal (worms) byproduct?

there will always be a discussion trying to determine at what point you are no longer a vegan. the little white worms on strawberries have been up for discussion with the Jewish community as to whither or not the strawberries are still clean to eat. I am a vegetarian but would certainly not be concerned by small insects. speaking of worms this opens up a whole can of worms that would never be resolved. as far as worm poop, sorry guys there is not a square inch of soil on this planet that the worms, grubs, insects, and microbes didn't produce with poop.

setting aside the inhumane treatment of animals prior to slaughter; a huge percentage of disease in humans is a direct resort of meat eating, both of those reasons are enough to convert a number of people to giving up meat eating.

the answer is a personal one

[dead_sled]

setting aside the inhumane treatment of animals prior to slaughter; a huge percentage of disease in humans is a direct resort of meat eating, both of those reasons are enough to convert a number of people to giving up meat eating.
the answer is a personal one

Having chosen to experience a vegatarian lifestyle earlier in my life, I understand the un-natural habitat that has been forced upon animals in commerical livestock operations. That is deffinitely not ok with me and my family. Of course, we are allowed to choose our style of living. The best style of living is always evolving and up to debate. That aside, I have not seen a legitimate, unbiased study showing that meat is a direct cause of a huge percentage of disease in humans. Half truths my be a large factor of why we are experiencing the health conditions that are so wide spread today.

I have a friend, who had lived as a vegatarian for 20+ years. He had a massive heart attack that nearly took his life. He also needed a quadruple bipass because of blockages in his blood vessels.

My theory so far, it is ever evolving, sticks with the theme of AP. I make an effort to source my food as local and as close to the earth as possible. I use the design of the human body as a starting point for nutrition selection.

[rfeiller]

Genetics appears to be a factor in how foods are processed and how cholesterol is processed by the body. I deal with that all the time. I'll be careful to quote the studies in the future.

[WurlyBird]

How about an update on this thread? How did the tea fed plants work out?