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Houliham
08-31-2010, 06:03 PM
Can the fish water flow don to the grow beds and then get pumped back up to the fish tank?

badflash
08-31-2010, 07:29 PM
Sure, just a lot more complicated. You need level switches to cycle the pumps on & off. Loss of power floods the plants.

jackalope
08-31-2010, 07:54 PM
Hi Houliham,

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davidstcldfl
08-31-2010, 08:03 PM
Hi Houliham, welcome to the forum.... :D

Badflash and I, must be reading your question differently...?

A good percentage of systems are CHIFT PIST ...constant height in fish tank, pump in sump tank.
The fish tank is highest, the growbeds at a lower level, the sump being the lowest point.
The water is actually 'overflowing' into the growbeds. The water drains from the beds to the sump. The water is then pumped back to the fish tank.

If the power goes out....the water just stops moving.
As long as your re-turn line doesn't start a siphon...use a check valve or simply, dont have it underwater in the fish tank....let the water spray into the tank to help with the O2.

The 'slo-drain' stands for 'solids lifting overflow'....the solids being fish pooh... :roll:
Hope this helps.

http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad157/davidstcldfl/CHIFTPIST.jpg

Houliham
08-31-2010, 08:27 PM
Very helpful! Thanks. Most of the systems I've seen on YouTube have the fish tank at the bottom. Should I make sure the fish are doing well before I put plants in?

JCO
08-31-2010, 08:44 PM
With all due respect to David, it would work much better if you reversed the sequence above and put the sump at the top. That way the solids would have a chance to settle and the water could flow by gravity to the grow beds keeping as much of the solids out of the beds as possible. It would also keep your grow beds from overflowing and your F/T from going dry in case of power failure. You could put a valve at the bottom of the sump to remove the solids periodically. That's the ideal situation for an Aquaponics set up if you can possibly set it up that way. :mrgreen:

Big Al
09-01-2010, 05:09 AM
i agree with david we run chift pist in our system with red worms in our gravel beds to clean up the sludge so far so good. Big Al

davidstcldfl
09-01-2010, 06:02 AM
It would also keep your grow beds from overflowing and your F/T from going dry in case of power failure.

JCO,with all due respect for you too... :) ....I'm sorry, my drawing is pretty crude. I should of 'noted' that there is a 'tee' ( on top of the slo-drain) inside the fish tank. The top of the tee is 'open'.
The water can 'only' leave the fish tank....as more water is being pumped into the fish tank. Following the rule of...'water seeks it's own level'.
If the power goes out....all the water stops flowing.( CHIFT.... Constant Height In Fish Tank)


keeping as much of the solids out of the beds as possible
You 'want' the pooh to go into the (media) growbeds. As BigAl pointed out....throw some worms in the growbeds, they eat the pooh and any roots that may have gotten left behind. People do toss in some tid bits to keep the worms happy. Adding bananna peels is pretty popular..adds some potasium

If your ratio of grow beds to fish tank is 'at least' 1:1, or best 2:1.....and the growbeds are at least 12 inchs deep, the media 3/4 inch and has red worms....they'll work great. Of course, you need to have a proper fish density.
I've read from several people on other forums ( that I tend to trust what they say)....have this type of set up, where the beds have gone years 'without' being cleaned. They've shown pictures as they are cleaning them...and it's a 'Why did I bother ?'

One other thing I noticed on the drawing.....normally the drain on the media growbed, would come out the bottom. :oops:

JCO
09-01-2010, 01:24 PM
David, not to start any kind of contest as to who knows how an Aquaponics system should be set up because a person can do it any way they please as far as I am concerned, however solids do not belong in grow beds if it can be prevented. Some people do it, but that is not the optimum fashion of setting up a system. If you do allow it and put worms in it, pretty soon you will be growing your plants in worm dirt filled with worms, not a clean grow medium where the water flows freely to the grow bed and back to the F/T.

Worms or no worms, if you allow solids in the grow beds you are going to have to clean it out sooner or later or it will clog the system and stall the flow. The basics of Aquaponics is Fish, Fish Water, grow media and filtration and there is nothing in that equation that says anything about worms or fish crap in the grow beds. The grow bed is not a sump and should never be use as such if at all possible to avoid.

As for people who use your method, ask them how much sludge is in the bottom of the grow beds or in the media over a period of time. You can not deny that worms do create a waste matter when they eat and their waste does not come out as clean water therefore, no matter how much fish matter they consume, there will be solid waste from the worms that will accumulate and sooner or later it will have to be cleaned out or your grow beds will actually be turned into wicking beds not Aquaponic grow beds.

Now that I have said my piece, people of the world....do it your way and enjoy life while you can.....todays mistakes are tomorrow's heart aches....beleive me I know from experience. :mrgreen:

badflash
09-01-2010, 03:11 PM
I'm experienced with fish, but just getting my first AP system cycled and on line now. Been a student for a number of years. There are lots of ways to skin the cat. What ever works for you, works for you.

The model I'm working on moves water from about 2' off the bottom of the fish tank (pool) and into the growbeds using flood & drain. Weekly I will vacuum the fish tank, de-water and feed the solids to the worms. This is a very simple setup. Pool, growbeds, bell siphon. Worm disposal unit. The pump that cycles the system has a take-off to a python vacuum.

Solids are removed via the python, sent to a bead filter for separation, and the water returned to the fish tank. Fish poo is easily removed from the bead filter and de-watered by settling. Clear water is poured off, and the rest given to the worms.

For those that put worms in the beds, the theory goes that the worms break down the solids and make them soluble so that the plants can use them. I can't say if that works or not, but I believe Dufflight has some experience in that area.

dufflight
09-01-2010, 06:33 PM
I've got a few gb's with fine gravel. The worms have kept these running for almost 2 years now. I've had a dig and there are not a lot of solids but there are a lot of worms. These gb's have 40mm standpipes so the water flow is strong. I think the defination of aquaponics is still open as we are learning more all the time and there are a lot of different ways to utilize elements of AP. Value adding to the rest of the garden etc.
Plants take a lot of the solids out as well. You only have to look at pot plants and the amount of soil that gets used over time. But as JCO points out there will be a time when the gb's will need to be cleaned. I'm happy to clean them out if they get too bad. I've even worked out a quicker way of doing it. Flood the gb and use a blunt fork to move the media around and something like a post hole digger to move the media around in the deep gb's. The water gets diverted to a filter to catch the solids or just flood the dirt garden with it.

Oliver
09-15-2010, 04:57 PM
Sorry to be so late in this comment, been off line here for a while.

The media filled grow beds serve several purposes, including bio-filtration. There has been some discussion on other fora about putting fish solid waste in the grow beds. Except for a few dissenters, there is general agreement that deep (12 inches or greater) media grow beds is a good place for the fish solids to be as they break down over time, a process called mineralization.

I have found that adding heterotrophic bacteria weekly aids in this process as well as keeping my fish tank water clear. It is important to realize that heterotrophic bacteria are aerobic and will remove oxygen from your water as it circulates through the grow beds where they are doing much of their work breaking down fish solid waste. This is why I'm now adding aerators to the grow beds we build and sell. This also allows for higher fish densities.

I believe there is enough evidence from those who have had several years experience with media filled deep grow beds to show that using them to collect and process fish solid waste is viable. Those who use shallow grow beds may find that they need to clean them out regularly but again, I believe that is because they have not allowed time for them to break down due to the lack of grow bed depth and perhaps the lack of aeration.

It appears from other's experience that adding worms also aid in this process. With or without worms, the byproducts still have to be mineralized and this is done by heterotrophic bacteria. Heterotrophic bacteria can be purchased on-line or at Wal Mart under the name Stress Zyme.

Oliver

JCO
09-15-2010, 06:04 PM
Oliver, I read your post and swore I would not say anything and signed off the forum, but my conscience wouldn't let me get away with that. For better or worse, I am Irish and have never run from anything in my life even though Badflash says that I should just take two aspirins and call him in the morning sometimes. :shock:

Aquaponics can be done in any manner a person chooses with a modicum of success as can dirt gardening. There is no law or Sheriff that is going to come to your house to arrest you for wondering from the path, however there is a specific way in which a model Aquaponics system should be set up and that system has a sump between the F/T and the Growbeds to collect the solids to prevent them from going into the grow bed media.

If this is not done, sooner or later, even with worms in the beds, you are going to experience reduced water flow and after that you will be growing your plants in mud. It may take awhile but it is enviable. Solids can not be broken down into a liquid unless the solids are reduced in size to the point they are not visible to the eye, but sooner or later they will gather somewhere and probably where you don't want them, then it's system shut down time and yuck to clean up.


It's great to try to build a better mouse trap, but I think I am safe in saying no one has improved significantly on the original wire and spring mouse trap so far... so it goes with Aquaponics, the standard setup is the only true way of doing things and the large scale commercial operations have tried everything you can think of to improve on it, but the basics are still the standard and that's what you will find 99% of the time where ever you go with the commercial growers!

Now, it's two aspirins and off to bed and finished with this thread....(maybe) :mrgreen:

Oliver
09-16-2010, 02:04 PM
JCO wrote:
Aquaponics can be done in any manner a person chooses with a modicum of success as can dirt gardening

There indeed are a number of ways to do aquaponics as long as it is a connected recirculated aquaculture system that uses the plants as part of the water filtering process.


There is no law or Sheriff that is going to come to your house to arrest you for wondering from the path, however there is a specific way in which a model Aquaponics system should be set up and that system has a sump between the F/T and the Growbeds to collect the solids to prevent them from going into the grow bed media.

You just contradicted yourself here.


If this is not done, sooner or later, even with worms in the beds, you are going to experience reduced water flow

Reduced flow where? What part of my aquaponics system will have reduced flow?


Solids can not be broken down into a liquid unless the solids are reduced in size to the point they are not visible to the eye

Yes and no. Perhaps you should do some research on what is known as mineralization +aquaponics. It is the breaking down of solids by living organisms, with or without worms and bacteria. After it is broken down, it is "reduced in size to the point they are not visible to the eye." It is then part of what plants uptake.


the large scale commercial operations have tried everything you can think of to improve on it, but the basics are still the standard and that's what you will find 99% of the time where ever you go with the commercial growers!

I think not. What "large scale commercial operations" are you referring to here? Are talking about fish farming? This argument is getting a little old. It is like saying NASA uses rockets to go into space so why should airplanes have wings?

"Commercial" aquaponics operators (whoever they are) are not even doing the same type of aquaponics as are the backyard folks. They (hypothetically) don't even use deep media grow beds and therefore must remove solids from their high density fish growing systems. They are mainly fish based aquaculture systems that have added some grow beds to help uptake some of the nitrates, reduce the amount of water exchange and produce a secondary crop. They do not have closed balanced systems as this would not be a profitable way in which to operate (although it is possible but not the way it is currently being attempted). So the comparison in the debate is moot.

To design a backyard deep media grow bed system following that model would be a mistake as it would require components that are completely unnecessary.

Lots of progress has been made in low density backyard DIY aquaponics since Rakocy started his system and he remains the expert in his own backyard. But people going into backyard DIY aquaponics need to move on to what is best for that type of system and move away from the old ideas of the joined marriage of aquaculture and hydroponics, for that is no longer what it is about. Only the word aquaponics is about that joining those two words.

Real aquaponics is about a single connected, balanced, closed loop recirculating system that contains fish, bacteria that break down the fish wastes (both liquid and solid), maybe some worms and plants. The only things that are added are water, fish food and some minerals as needed. The only thing that is removed are the vegetables and fish.

Oliver

badflash
09-16-2010, 07:08 PM
Lets call a time out with you guys, OK? You are both obviously passionate about your feelings. Lots of good points, let me make a few others.

Large commercial operations concentrate on rafting and growing plants that can grow with the roots submerged. For this to work, the solids need to be removed or they will remove the oxygen from the water and breed bacteria. Fast growing greens are just about all they grow.

Flood & drain is an entirely different animal. It has higher levels of oxygen and higher turbulence. As long as the bed media is course enough, it won't clog. Material may pass through and return to the fish tank over & over. For tilapia, this isn't a big issue as long as the turbidity doesn't get too high. They re-eat the stuff and break it down further. Plants take up most of it, and worms can break it down further as well. These systems must be monitored and guarded against over feeding. Happily, you can stop feeding for a few days and the system will usually self correct.

No system is perfect and if you add feed, you will need to do some house cleaning now & then. If your beds are sized right, it will be years before you have to break down a bed and clean it. Sadly, on a small scale we have never built a closed loop system that allows you to remove food, so you need to add, take out, and periodically clean.

rfeiller
10-23-2010, 10:24 PM
which is the correct application or implimentation, i think my focus would be on which system produces the most nutrition, and the strongest healthiest plants. since most veggies have a limited life span anyway i would think cleaning out old roots and sediment would be part of the husbandry. speaking as a person with very limited experience with "ponics" of any type.

urbanfarmer
10-23-2010, 11:32 PM
which is the correct application or implimentation, i think my focus would be on which system produces the most nutrition, and the strongest healthiest plants. since most veggies have a limited life span anyway i would think cleaning out old roots and sediment would be part of the husbandry. speaking as a person with very limited experience with "ponics" of any type.
The correct implementation depends on what you are doing. If you read through the posts as they debated their sides, some interesting fallacies developed, but badlfash was quick to interject and clarify those false assumptions.

You can use Oliver's flood and drain design concepts for your backyard Aquaponic system. The idea is that you do not need a sump, and the grow bed acts as both bio-filtration and mechanical filtration with minimal to no maintenance because of the mineralization of solids. Bacteria and even worms perform the bulk of this work. I have one set up like this, and it has been going strong for some time.

Also, I plan to set up a much larger system as a pilot for a commercial system. The grow beds will be floating raft (DWC, deep water culture), and I intend to stick with JCO's design concepts. However, I am toying with the idea of using gravel grow beds as part of the bio-filtration and solid removal. Naturally, there will be a sump first to remove the bulk of solids, but in case anything is missed I hope the gravel grow beds will catch them and provide a near maintenance-free mechanical filtration. There will be worms, and this is where I plan to place plant refuse to supplement nutrients. Part of the reason is to stay "organic", but I have yet to finish my research on that side of it.

Lastly, I want to tank everyone for all the wonderful information that has been presented on this forum. My knowledge has grown thanks to all of you. I think that about sumps it all up. Again, THANK YOU!

I hope that helps! :D