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View Full Version : What's wrong with this ? or The New system



Hotrodmike
08-10-2010, 02:23 PM
Ok I am really hoping the answer to this is "Nothing"
I have been searching and researching this for about a year but only got into doing something a few moths ago after I lost my company . I have given the spec's of what I was doing but will rehash ,just so no one has to go looking ;) . I know this is not rocket science but in the back of my head I keep thinking I'm going to F'up something . Tuning I understand ,failure would be a big problem .
Fish tank is 1550 gallon poly water tank that I will cut part of the top off for access . At this point I have dug a hole ,that about took the wind out of me ( not hole digging country ) to set the tank so that 32" of the 48" water level will be below ground level ( 16" of water above grade ) .
The pump is a Mag drive 1800 GPH pump that will be external off a tank bung about 3" off the bottom of the tank .
Air will be from a 200lpm (8cfm) pump to 2 air-membranes and maybe some air in the GB's
I was going to run a 4000GPH pond filter as I do plan to run some DWC and NFT on the system on top of the Fill and drain beds but I am not sure if I am just being redundant and may leave it out of the equation for now .
For starters I plan to build 4 -3'x6'x16" flood and drain beds with Affnan's bell siphons as this is all that will fit in the greenhouse till I can afford to expand it . I will just have to adjust the fish load for the beds and not the tank .
Now some things or should I say details I am not to sure of . First off on the bell siphon . How much drop out of the bed do I need to get a good flow and should the return line be below my bed drops or just below the beds ? As the bell siphons will be using 1" exits what sizing should I use on the main drain line back to the tank , I was thinking 2" should be ok . The one thing I am trying to do is keep the beds from being too high and yes I understand the first rule of plumbing " S##T Runs Downhill " :D So I do understand all drains have to have a fall rate to work . The only thing I keep thinking is to keep the beds lower I have to either dig the tank deeper (I would hate that ) use a sump ( but that would entail another pump and digging another hole ) or just raising the beds up . Since my water level will be at 16" and the beds will be 16" that is already 32" with no drops in the runs or drops on the siphon . I also would hate to have to get on my knee's to do anything with the fish :(
So any simple input or am I just getting too anal :oops: I just can't afford any costly mistakes at this point .
Have A Kind Day
Mike

davidstcldfl
08-10-2010, 04:09 PM
Hi Mike, I like my fish tank to stay at a constant heigth...that's just me.
Your fish tank is also going to act as your sump, so your water will go up and down a little.
Of course your tank is pretty big....you may not even notice.
Your F&D's are about 180 gals....they may only hold 40% of that, after the media is in....aprox 72 gals per bed. Even if all 4 fill at the 'same time', your only looking at 290 gals out of 1200 to 1300 plus gallons of water.

I'm just starting to use 'Bells'....so I really can't say much there. Except, I've heard only good things about Affnan's.

A 2" drain 'might be' ok....what's the odds of 'more then' 2 bells kicking in at the same time ?
You will get a 'bio' build up inside the pipe, which will slow it a little.
If you wanted to lean towards 'over size'....or if you think you may add on in the future (?).....
You could jump to 3 "....'or' .... run 2 differant drain lines. Tie two of your F&D's to their own 2'' drain, and a differant drain, for the other two beds. Might be easier then the 3 " drain.

It's cheaper to go bigger 'now'...less work and 'no kickin' yourself later'.... :lol:
Bigger is better, when it comes to pick-up trucks, guns and drains..... :P and pizza's and paychecks too.

stucco
08-10-2010, 04:40 PM
If your bed is 3x6 I would go with at least 1 ½ pipe for the discharge pipe. I’ve got 2” on my 3’x7’ bed and it works great. The thing that has worked for me is the end of the discharge pipe is running uphill slightly. I mean that I no matter how far the discharge pipe is running downhill the end should be pointing up ½ to ¾ the thickness of the pipe to create a slight trap. I hope that made sence! :?

badflash
08-10-2010, 05:30 PM
If you only have 1 bell siphon that is a 1" standpipe, a 2" drain is fine. Be sure to put a cleanout on it. Stuff grows in the pipes and you need to be able to clean them. Like stucco said, you need a little back pressure on the siphon to get it to kick. I put a little trap on mine before it goes into the main drain. Mine drops 6" from the bed, loops up 2", then slopes another 3 back to the pool.

Hotrodmike
08-10-2010, 07:41 PM
Thanks guys
Dave I understand the tank will be the sump and each grow bed will take it down about 1" so even all 4 at once would be 4" so that doesnt bother me too much . As for the 2" if thats the biggest problem I encounter it's all good :D I also have a bunch of 2" laying around from my spa days that's what made that choice .

Stucco Are you saying 1.5 for the bottom of the bell or on the main drain line ? The trap part I understand and am guessing thats to prevent to much air in the line breaking the flow.

Bad Yes one siphon per bed and I thought from what I have read that 1" should be ok for that sized bed , yes ! I know basicly it is sewage and I had planned a clean out on both ends . I was wondering whether it needed a straight drop or you could do a P-trap type coming off .

See that's what I mean if the water level is 16 " above grade the bed is 16" deep ,I drop 6" with plumbing ,then give it another couple inches for drop in the run . All that adds up to 41 " which is a bit high for the top of the beds . Then I have to put two beds beside each other ( so really is a 6'x6' split bed ) It becomes very hard to reach the inside plants at that height . I was hoping to figure a way to get the beds down with out redesigning the whole system . I was hoping for a simple fix :lol: ok at least one that did not entail this old man digging anymore rock ,Rock sucks !
It is looking more and more like digging may be the only solution :cry:
Have A Kind Day
Mike

stucco
08-11-2010, 03:33 AM
Stucco, Are you saying 1.5 for the bottom of the bell or on the main drain line ? The trap part I understand and am guessing thats to prevent to much air in the line breaking the flow.

1.5 For both the stand pipe and the discharge pipe. The stand pipe is the pipe that sticks up from the bottom of the bed that the bell slides over. With that size stand pipe the bell should be 3"
I have a bed that is 2'x6'x12" that I used a 1" stand pipe for and I’m not happy with how fast it drains compared to the others. I like a slow fill fast drain and I’m sure that some will disagree, but this is what has worked for me. Now you have a kind day!
:mrgreen:

stucco
08-11-2010, 03:38 AM
I just realized that you are using an affnan type siphon and now as usual I have no idea as to what I’m talking about. :?

davidstcldfl
08-11-2010, 05:00 AM
I just realized that you are using an affnan type siphon
I think Stucco is right.....I don't think the 1" stand pipe, will drain the bed 'fast enough'.
Each bed will have at least, 70 gals of water to be drained. MHO....I'd go 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 inch stand pipes and discharge. ( At least, build your stand pipe and discharge, out of the thin wall 1"...that way the ID is bigger, then the schedule 40)

You'll still use Affnan's design....just have to 'size up' all the parts, accordingly.

Hotrodmike
08-11-2010, 12:03 PM
:? :? :? :? I know I must be S.O.L if I'm confusing the moderators !
I also see everyone is avoiding my height question as I already figure I am going to be back in the hole picking rock :cry: :cry: .

Now as for the siphon (glad I did not order all my bulkhead fittings ) if I go say 1.5 " how big does the bell need to go 2" ? or bigger ? Stucco are you saying 1.5 x 3" bell fitting as that would end up at least 4" for the dome and 6" for the screen pipe ? or where you not thinking Affnan style ?
Your confusion is contagious :o

Man that puppy will sound like a row of heads going off . To think I thought getting Blues was going to be my biggest problem ! This will also mean I will have to up the main drain line to 4" if I have 4- 1.5 drains . Should I toss this up on P.A ? As they seem to be more into the Affnan's bell . Is there a formula on the bell size as to increased volume vs drain size

I was really hoping to not have to fluff up my hair and put a lab coat on :lol:

Stucco , No I don't get one till everyone else gets theirs ,kinda like the last one out of the room turn off the light thing :D Sooooooooo ( It's not about what you get it's about what you give ,it all goes round )
Have A Kind Day
Mike

jackalope
08-11-2010, 12:59 PM
See that's what I mean if the water level is 16 " above grade the bed is 16" deep ,I drop 6" with plumbing ,then give it another couple inches for drop in the run . All that adds up to 41 " which is a bit high for the top of the beds . Then I have to put two beds beside each other ( so really is a 6'x6' split bed ) It becomes very hard to reach the inside plants at that height . I was hoping to figure a way to get the beds down with out redesigning the whole system . I was hoping for a simple fix :lol: ok at least one that did not entail this old man digging anymore rock ,Rock sucks !
It is looking more and more like digging may be the only solution :cry:
Have A Kind Day
Mike

Let me see if I can help out (or maybe confuse the issue some more) 16" for the FT + 6" for the drain drop is 24" to the bottom of the GB .... so if your GBs are 16", that makes 40" +- and inch or so here and there ..... a six inch drop is a pretty good drop (where I come from) if the GBs aren't located too far from the FT. And, if you shorten your pipe going into the FT so that it acts somewhat like a fountain of sorts, it will act as an aireator for the FT which will lessen the energy requirements - especially if each GB has it's own drain to the FT. That kind of aeration is much more efficient and better than pumped air form what I've read - it adds much more oxygen to the water than air stones ..... you could just put a p-trap on the end and there's your fountain ;) I just measured my wife's stance (she's about 5'3") and 40-42 inches would not be too high for the GBs, but her reach would only be about 20", so putting the GBs together to make a 6x6 would be out of the question. I would even go as high as 46", because her 20" reach would go past the center of a 3' GB. In the alternative .... rather than digging ...... I would build 2x? walkways a foot or so off the ground so as to raise the GBs before I'd dig that huge hole any deeper :!: :lol: (That will also keep her dainty little feets out of any mud/dust that may accumulate on the ground ;) A quick hunt for pallets will give you the needed spacers between the ground and the top of the walkways and a trip to some lumber stores will yield a lot of scrap/reject lumber that will suffice for the walkways. I paid $400 for some rejects about 3 years back that had to be trucked here by semi because there was so much of it (they threw in the trucking free just to get rid of it :) ), and I'm still using 2x4s all the way up to 2x12s (some are up to 20' long) from that pile. There was also a bunch of scrap/reject tin roofing in that load - enough to build an 8x8' storage shed.

Just my 2 centavos .........

davidstcldfl
08-11-2010, 02:52 PM
Mike. I think what Stucco was/is saying is....he doesn't use the Affnan's......so he doesn't want to mis-lead you on them.
The (basic) differences between the two bells are....Affnan's 'do not' have a little hose, going to the top, that breaks the suction....standard bells ... "DO"
Affnan's have a reducer/bushing sitting on the top of the stand pipe. Standard bells...'do not' have that on top of the stand pipe.
The bushing is the 'key'....something to do with fluid dynamics. Didn't Affnan say he was an fluid engineer (?)
I don't remember Affnan adding any traps or slightly running his drain up hill, at the end of the run (?) ( Then again, I don't remember what I had for dinner last night either... :? )

Bell size (?).....what I did is .....I took the size reducer/bushing I wanted to put on top of my stand pipe....and tried different pipe sizes, till I found one it would fit inside of.... :lol:

You won't look any sillier then the other customers in the pipe dept, at home depot. If an employee asks what your doing/or do you need help...ask him/her if they have an hour, and you'll gladly explain.... :lol: I get home a lot quicker using that line.... :D

Drains....You still may be able to use 2 ", by only hooking 2 GB's to a 2 '' drain (the other 2 Gb's to another 2" drain) ...independent of each other.
The odds of 2 GB's 'kicking off' at one time is slim. You said you 'already have' the 2"

height....Mike, I don't know ,if you said how long the drain 'run' will be....? You only need 1/8 " of fall, for each foot of 'run'. Of course you mentioned the fittings coming out of the Gb's, add up, on the fall, too.
Wish I could be more help... :|

Hotrodmike
08-11-2010, 03:37 PM
Jackolope
No that makes perfect sense ,but just to be sure let me run it back . You are saying I could gain a bit by entering the tank just below the water level and doing a turn up ( fountain )which would push water up through the water creating aireation or were you saying to come in at water level dip down and come back up ? As for air I am using commercial air membrane not air stones ( hard water eats stones ) and they are rated 4 cfm and are good for a 1/4 ac pond .( I even thought of having a dive Cyl. with one of my old regulators for a power outage back up and use an old UPS ,with bad batteries (( so will replace those with 2-980a car batteries with a solar trickle charger ))
The bad thing is I can not run a walk way between the 3x6 and need to keep the 6x6 config as thats what I can get in the greenhouse ,till I can expand it .
No mud and much in my greenhouse as I laid out 3" of decomposed granite . The problem with using scrap wood here in Texas is TERMITES . Any piece of wood making ground contact will have them puppies in it within 3 months . So anything that hits the ground has to be treated or it will be eaten :(
I guess since I can not change physics I gotta dig :cry: I did find one thing in my tool box that has really helped going through this rock , My air chisel or as I have now renamed it my Pocket Jack Hammer :lol: O well what's 10" more in 100 degree weather :?
Here are a couple pix of my hole and of the greenhouse
Have A Kind Day
Mike

Hotrodmike
08-11-2010, 03:51 PM
Mike. I think what Stucco was/is saying is....he doesn't use the Affnan's......so he doesn't want to mis-lead you on them.
The (basic) differences between the two bells are....Affnan's 'do not' have a little hose, going to the top, that breaks the suction....standard bells ... "DO"
Affnan's have a reducer/bushing sitting on the top of the stand pipe. Standard bells...'do not' have that on top of the stand pipe.
The bushing is the 'key'....something to do with fluid dynamics. Didn't Affnan say he was an fluid engineer (?)
I don't remember Affnan adding any traps or slightly running his drain up hill, at the end of the run (?) ( Then again, I don't remember what I had for dinner last night either... :? )

Bell size (?).....what I did is .....I took the size reducer/bushing I wanted to put on top of my stand pipe....and tried different pipe sizes, till I found one it would fit inside of.... :lol:

You won't look any sillier then the other customers in the pipe dept, at home depot. If an employee asks what your doing/or do you need help...ask him/her if they have an hour, and you'll gladly explain.... :lol: I get home a lot quicker using that line.... :D

Drains....You still may be able to use 2 ", by only hooking 2 GB's to a 2 '' drain (the other 2 Gb's to another 2" drain) ...independent of each other.
The odds of 2 GB's 'kicking off' at one time is slim. You said you 'already have' the 2"

height....Mike, I don't know ,if you said how long the drain 'run' will be....? You only need 1/8 " of fall, for each foot of 'run'. Of course you mentioned the fittings coming out of the Gb's, add up, on the fall, too.
Wish I could be more help... :|

I kind of figured that after his comment .
The distance is not much as you can see in this rough drawing in CAD ( Can't Actually Draw)
Two runs is very easy even for the distance I could do one for each if I had to.
Sorry but they dont let me out often so It always take me hours to get back :lol: Ahh useing my posts against me :o
Have A Kind Day
Mike

Hotrodmike
08-15-2010, 03:07 PM
Try this one more time ,eat my post.
Got ahold of Affnan and he said "25mm/1" siphon size I recommend up to 4'x8' growbed, its not a problem with the size you mentioned." So that is good to know . Also on the formula on bells it is 2:1 so a 1"-2" ,1.5-3" etc would work .
So at least I have these answers now and figured I would post them up for others .
Well since every time I post a picture of a hole the thread ends :o Here is the last one as I whacked her down another foot and it's gettin hard to get in and out but a clean out ,knock a high spot or two down drop in some copper tube and sand . Then I can set the tank and start working on the GB's
Have A Kind Day
Mike

stucco
08-15-2010, 04:40 PM
That’s a good lookin greenhouse. :mrgreen:

Hotrodmike
08-15-2010, 10:41 PM
That’s a good lookin greenhouse. :mrgreen:
Thanks Stucco , Not 1/2 big enough but that is always the case with garages and greenhouses :lol: The wife was just getting toooooo damn many plants that were sub-tropical and so the house ,garage and porch looked like jungles every winter . Being a fab'er it was the easiest way for me to do one . All 1.25" sq tube and everything is made in sections and each section is bolted to the next . Still a whole lota welding . I did the sections for ease in putting it up ,taking it down or expanding or modding it (each section is 8' ). I think all in all it cost me 700$ and has been up for about 7 years . Damn greenhouse cored plastic has doubled and steel has tripled so would have been better off going big in the begining :x
At least the list is getting shorter once greenhouse is big enough all I got left on the list is faster cars as the shop is plenty big and the guns are covered ;) . Well kinda still got the Ol'ladies list :shock:
Have A Kind Day
Mike

Oldandfound1
08-17-2010, 09:24 PM
Wow HRM,
Had not seen your "hole" except from your description on another post. I quit digging down at 2 feet when I hit hard pan and expanded laterally.
Nice to see your pics.
Dennis
Oldandfound1

Hotrodmike
08-17-2010, 10:37 PM
Wow HRM,
Had not seen your "hole" except from your description on another post. I quit digging down at 2 feet when I hit hard pan and expanded laterally.
Nice to see your pics.
Dennis
Oldandfound1
O&F
To be honest it was more oww :cry: but I am stubborn and it is done !!! The air chisel seems like a strange tool to use but it saved my butt ,still a big PIA . Told wife that hole was done now we could do the next one ,ah if looks could kill ! Then told her it was just a pump well :lol:
I could not go lateral as my FT is about 6' tall ,plus I am hoping it will help the temps from going too far either way . Right now the lake is at 90 deg and the pool is more like a hot tub
Have A Kind Day
Mike

Hotrodmike
08-25-2010, 01:51 PM
Ok I figure I would just keep adding to this post as I get things done .
As you can see tank is now dropped in the hole and back filled except around where I need to do plumbing . One word of advice ,never let drunks help with large items :lol: and if you do Always bring the video cam (which I did not ) Would have made a great Utube :o
The second pic it all the wood for the grow beds . I was going with 2x12 but I wanted a full 12" of media so as always I took the complicated route since they dont have 2x14's . I am going to stack two 2x8's glued and doweled. That should give me 14.5" deep beds . Very strange having a auto shop that now smells like a wood shop :lol: .This is going to be a PIA as I only have enough clamps to do 1 side at a time then let cure ,plus it's been so damn hot it's real hard to work (yesterday was 107 ). So slow going but still moving forward. Pond liner should be in this week and hopefully I can make some progress .
I still need to cut out part of the tank top for access and make a cover for that as we have way too many thing walking around that would love a free fish dinner :shock:
Have A Kind Day
Mike

stucco
08-25-2010, 02:17 PM
That’s a fancy lookin engine in the background there.

Oldandfound1
08-25-2010, 07:40 PM
HRM.
I think you secretly have plans to put the greenhouse fan on the motor out back and make a swamp boat with the lumber instead of a raft tank. Way too fast for indoors.
Dennis
Oldandfound1

Hotrodmike
08-25-2010, 09:50 PM
Stucco
You were only supposed to look at the wood :?
Nothing fancy just a Gm LM7 327 that is going in a 64 Impala SS . I used to do lots of stuff like that and wilder when the shop was open .
O&F
Well to be truthful you got me !!!!!!!!!
But ya did not get it right ,I would never use electronic injection in a swamp boat . Once they fire the pulse weapons and fry all the electronic and ya cant get gas but alcohol from corn and and old school injectors system with about 1700 HP will work :D :D :D
The pic is the wood for one bed I cut and stood up to get an idea what I had in real size .
Since the bottom cross braces will be at each leg I opted to do 4 sets of legs per GB rather than 3 , Prob over kill but I tend to be good with that :lol:
Have A Kind Day
Mike

Hotrodmike
09-30-2010, 09:00 PM
Well guys being sick for a couple weeks slowed me down ,but am still making headway .
The beds are done except the liners .By the time they got all varnished up they almost look too good to put out in the greenhouse . Here are a couple pix of the beds finished up before varnish and a couple more of the first one set in the greenhouse . Got a second one set in the greenhouse today but no pix . Once I get all 4 set up I can get the liners in and run the drain plumbing and then the pressure side . Then all I have left is rock and I can start it cycling . It really suck I have not been able to find the expanded shale any closer than Dallas and to deliver is a minimum of 35 yards and cant afford or know what I would do with 32 extra yards . Now it's down to trying to find rock that does not have limestone in it as most everything down here does :(
Any one up in DFW know someone heading toward Austin with a bobtail !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????
Have A Kind Day
Mike

Hotrodmike
10-08-2010, 11:06 AM
Well all 4 beds are in the greenhouse and leveled .Tank is cut for a door and plumbed to the greenhouse . Pump and back up filter is sunk in the ground and I will make a cover for the pump hole . So I am down to putting liners in the beds and finish the plumbing . Still on a hang over the rock as I really wanted expended shale but the cost for delivery is the killer and the amount I would have to buy so I guess I need to make a run over to one of the rock places and find something without a lot of limestone in it . Tossed in a picture of one of my pineapples ( not AP) that we got out of the greenhouse ,it was just over 5# and tasty !

Hotrodmike
10-08-2010, 11:11 AM
Just he last three pix's since there is a 3 limit . Now of course we had to plant all the tops from the ones we ate and old lady is already yelling" No Mo pineapples " as they are eating up the greenhouse and are not the smallest plant I could raise
Have A Kind Day
Mike