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kyledwards
07-12-2010, 10:45 AM
So I got my system setup this weekend without the hydroton. I'll be purchasing it local to avoid the shipping cost.

Here is my setup:

Grow Bed: 6' X 4' X 9" (will be filling it to about 7 inches) About 94 Gallons @ 7 inches
Fish Tank: 150 Gallon Rubbermaid Stock Tank
Pump: Flotec FP0S1300X (1/6 HP, 1470 GPH Submersible Utility Pump)

The grow bed takes about 24 minutes to fill (I have a ball valve restricting the pumps flow). The bell siphon starts to flow fast at about 25 minutes and the bell siphon breaks at 35 minutes.

The question I can think of right now.

1. By restricting the pumps flow will I burn it out? Any reason I shouldn't do it? Get a smaller pump? Maybe a 300-500 GPH pump?

2. I have the grow bed draining directly back into the fish tank. Do I need a sump? Why do you have a sump?

3. Should I aerate the fish tank?

4. I read on this forum that the a 2:1 ratio is hat you should strive for. I at about 1.5:1 right now. Will this cause problems? I guess it matters on the bioload/how many fish I get.

5. Anybody in Northern California recommend a place to get Silver Perch? I might start with gold fish or Koi, but I do eventually want fish to eat. Anybody have good info on the SIlver Perch? Speed at which they grow, etc, etc?

6. Will adding the hydroton change my flow rates?

I'll have pictures tonight!

Thanks in advance. I can't wait to start planting!

keith_r
07-12-2010, 11:29 AM
regarding the ratio's..
it is describing the ratio of growbed to fish tank, ideally, you want 2x as much growbed volume as fish tank volume..

i have a small system, 1:1, 2 55 gallon barrels cut in half for growbeds, and a 110 gallon fish tank, because i use about 40 gallons of water to flood the system, i don't really need a sump,

it would be better to have 200 gallons of growbed to 100 gallons of fish tank, but that's when you start to need a sump, unless you do a sequencing valve, becuase you can end up draining to much water from the fish tank
look up CHIFT PIST - Constant Height in Fish Tank, Pump In Sump Tank
i'm not real familiar with pumps, but you want to be able to pump the volume of the fish tank through the growbeds once an hour, then oversized it from there.. if you have to much flow you can divert a line back into the tank to add aeration
I have a few airstones in my 110 gallon ft, it can't hurt unless it gets real cold, then you'd be pumping the cold air into the water

stucco
07-12-2010, 11:46 AM
You don’t want to restrict the pump flow. Instead add a t with a ball valve and pump the excess water back to the tank for additional aeration.
The 94 gallon bed will not drain the tank all that much once you fill it with the hydroton. Hydroton will take up 60% of the volume of the bed.
Lots of aeration is good. You can almost never have too much. I use the rechargeable backup type for extra piece of mind in case of power outage.
I think the silver perch are only available in Australia unless you get some at a pet store, but that may cost you.
:mrgreen:

davidstcldfl
07-12-2010, 12:36 PM
I agree with Keith...(and now Stucco, He just beat me to the post)..Dont restrict your pump.....add a tee to your supply from the pump. Run most of it to the GB and the rest back to the tank. You can make a spray bar from pvc....just drill a seires of holes and let the water spray into the tank.

1470 gph on your pump rating...... That is 'a lot' for your set up.
However, you'll lose 'some' flow depending on the 'head'.... how high the top of the GB is above the surface of the fish water. You'll lose some with the flow of water through the pvc....especially, once you build up a bio-film inside the pipe. ( The bio-film will effect the drains also....always go bigger, then you think you may need, as a safety factor)

On sizing a pump....move the fish tanks water 'twice' an hour....Plus, figure in the things I already mentioned above. (Twice an hour, helps with the oxygen level)
You, yourself mentioned a smaller pump. You 'might' want to try one around 500 gals...just MHO. You really need to look at the flow chart, that shows how the 'head' effects the flow of a given pump.

You can save the big pump for when you add GB's and a sump....remember, it's an addiction.... :lol:

The hydroton will displace about 60% of the water (if I remember right ?)
Your GB, at 7 inches is about 104 gals...add the hydroton and your GB will hold about '40 some' gals.
So, your GB will fill 'faster'.

Your correct about the fish load....when you don't have as much GB...keep the load on the light side. It's smart, to start with just a few fish....just incase... :roll:

Add some red wigglers to your GB....they'll help keep it clean(er). Worms don't drown....only if there is too little oxygen in the water.

Looking forward to your pictures !

kyledwards
07-12-2010, 12:56 PM
Thought I'd make a quick drawing of my setup in Google SketchUp (http://sketchup.google.com/). SketchUp is a great was to visualize the system and get all the measurements you need for the lumber. The plumbing is not what it looks like (I'm still figuring out how to do it in SketchUp. Having the ability to visualize my aquaponics setup helped a lot. I'm a visual person so it's great. [attachment=0:3p8zrrsj]aquaponics system.jpg[/attachment:3p8zrrsj]

kyledwards
07-12-2010, 01:16 PM
Hey thanks guys for the Replies! Keith & Stucco, what a awesome idea about putting a T and pumping water back into the fish take to create more bubbles! I would have never thought of that. I might even try adding a venturi to it.

So the Hydroton will take up about 60% of the grow bed volume. Yeah, I'll need a smaller pump.

The "head" I believe is maybe 2' or 2' 6". Not sure, but the overall height of the grow bed is a little over 3' and the pipe coming out of the pump might be about 3' 6". I believe the flow at 1470 GPH was at level. I found the manual for my pump online and at 3' it pumps 1320 GPH.

If I add a spray bar all the way around my grow bed and have some go back into the fish tank do you think it's possible to keep the pump?

I can return to pump, so maybe I'll just get a 500GPH pump...

JCO
07-12-2010, 02:31 PM
Your sump should be between the FT and GB in an effort to collect as much of the sediment as possible to keep it out of the GB as possible, otherwise it can eventually clog the GB and stall you system. :mrgreen:

badflash
07-12-2010, 02:56 PM
7" is pretty shallow. 12" is usually considered the minimum for a GB.

I always recommend air stones, and on a different circuit.

davidstcldfl
07-12-2010, 03:38 PM
If I add a spray bar all the way around my grow bed and have some go back into the fish tank do you think it's possible to keep the pump?
You may find ,where ever the water hits/splashes on the hydroton....you'll see algee growing... :(

kyledwards
07-12-2010, 04:02 PM
JCO & davidstcldfl, I'm thinking of putting an aquarium filter on the end of the pipe entering the GB to collect the solids from the FT. Putting the end of the pipe deep under the hydroton with the filter so algae doesn't grow. What about adding worms? Will that help the problem with the solids in the GB? I'm thinking the fish solids will just turn into worm solids...

I thought 7" would be fine for Lettuce and other leafy greens. I know tomato might have issues but I could just put a tomato cage in the GB. I guess I just need to make sure the bottom of the cage doesn't poke thru the pond liner.

badflash
07-13-2010, 03:57 AM
As long as the plants are not tall they won't fall over, but plants with deep roots may have an issue as 7" won't drain all the way to the bottom.

keith_r
07-13-2010, 07:10 AM
deeper beds are recommended for a couple of reasons, but i'm sure it doesn't hurt to experiment..
one of the posters on this forum (TCLynx) uses 100 gallon rubbermaid stock tanks as grow beds, i think those are around 20" to 22" deep..
i've seen a couple system with 4 or 6" deep trays, they are really limited on what they can grow
i don't know if i'd put the pipe deep under the hydroton, you might siphon the water out back through the pump if it shuts off..
next growbed feed i do will have probably 2 outlets, one on each end of the pipe going into each end of the gb.. if you are worried about the algae the will start to grow, you can put one of those plastic scrub pads under the water outlet
you want solids in the growbeds so that they start to break down and provide all the good stuff the plants need, but if you are under sized in the gb to ft, it might be a good idea to remove some solids
worms are a definite plus in the gb, try to get "red wiggler" or composting worms
best of luck

davidstcldfl
07-13-2010, 07:50 AM
I'm thinking of putting an aquarium filter on the end of the pipe entering the GB to collect the solids from the FT. Putting the end of the pipe deep under the hydroton with the filter so algae doesn't grow.
I'd skip the aquariumfilter.
You can run your pipe 'just into ' the hydroton...not deep. Keith mentioned it might siphon...good point.
If your adding a 'tee' anyway, to run some water back to the fish tank....you may be able to run it in such a way ..... to act as a 'vent' , if the pump shuts off.....(?)

Fish pooh is BIG....worm pooh is little.... :) The worms will 'aid in' keeping the GB working. Of course ,one GB and worms can only handle so much fish load.
You could add a solids seperator, before the GB.....'if' your load gets too high. Then add the collected 'pooh' to plants in the dirt garden. It would be better, to add more GB's, at that time.


but plants with deep roots may have an issue as 7" won't drain all the way to the bottom.
He's right.....my bell siphon leaves about an 1 1/2" (or less) of water in the bottom. 'I think' ...TCLynx made the comment , that her 'loop siphon' removed more,
then what a bell typically did (?)

kyledwards
07-13-2010, 01:49 PM
Hey thanks for all the replies. Have the fun is experimenting! I was originally thinking of just having the main pipe flow into the grow bed and wrapping a fish filter around the end to catch the solids.

I have noticed the pump sucking back into the FT. I put a very small hole in the pipe and when the water level reaches that level it breaks the siphon. Haven't had a problem since.

My bell siphon leaves about a inch of water too. I didn't think it would be a problem if the water is cycling constantly.

As promised. A few photos without the hydroton.
[attachment=1:nje2oc5a]IMG_0023.jpg[/attachment:nje2oc5a]
[attachment=0:nje2oc5a]IMG_0029.jpg[/attachment:nje2oc5a]

davidstcldfl
07-13-2010, 03:32 PM
Looks nice... :D Hard to tell in the picture...looks like there may be room to the left, for more GB's ???


I have noticed the pump sucking back into the FT. I put a very small hole in the pipe and when the water level reaches that level it breaks the siphon. Haven't had a problem since.
Sorry...I'm not sure what you are trying to tell us....? I 'think' you mean when the pump is 'off' ...?....'or'....Was the pump sucking in air,(when it's running) because the water was low, in the Fish tank ?

Did you keep the 'big' pump...?

Normally, when people use 'bells', they do leave the pump run all the time.

On another note....I'm a commercial AC Tech. 'It looks like' (?) your liner is up against the coil on your condensor. That will make your unit work harder/longer.... :( Blocking the top of the unit does the same thing.
When your 'AC guy' comes to clean your coils.....he'll be doing this.... :roll: ....lol.

kyledwards
07-13-2010, 04:10 PM
Looks nice... :D Hard to tell in the picture...looks like there may be room to the left, for more GB's ???


I have noticed the pump sucking back into the FT. I put a very small hole in the pipe and when the water level reaches that level it breaks the siphon. Haven't had a problem since.
Sorry...I'm not sure what you are trying to tell us....? I 'think' you mean when the pump is 'off' ...?....'or'....Was the pump sucking in air,(when it's running) because the water was low, in the Fish tank ?

Did you keep the 'big' pump...?

Normally, when people use 'bells', they do leave the pump run all the time.

On another note....I'm a commercial AC Tech. 'It looks like' (?) your liner is up against the coil on your condensor. That will make your unit work harder/longer.... :( Blocking the top of the unit does the same thing.
When your 'AC guy' comes to clean your coils.....he'll be doing this.... :roll: ....lol.

Thanks davidstcldf for the reply. Sorry for not explaining it that well. I'll try again. When I turn off the pump I noticed the water would start going back down into the pump and into the FT. I know it's not a problem when the pump is going all the time. As you know it's a non issue as long as the pump is going all the time.

We don't even turn on the AC. It does get hot here, but the wife and I don't like AC at all. Since you're an AC guy do you have any recommendation on how often we should turn it on to make sure it will not break or whatever AC units do when they are never used? Sorry to be off subject...

Yeah, I have room for more grow beds. I really want to build a green house in a different location. I'll stick to just one GB for now ($$$$). I'd like an 8'X10' green house with two 2'X7' GBs, but it'll have to wait.

Time for a trip to Home Depot...

davidstcldfl
07-13-2010, 05:13 PM
We don't even turn on the AC.

how often we should turn it on to make sure it will not break or whatever AC units do when they are never used?
:shock: ....in central FL, most people run their units about 10 months a year. Commercial buildings run 12 months a year (except last winter when it was cold for 2 weeks... :lol: )

I don't really know the answer to your question... :?

badflash
07-13-2010, 08:20 PM
Everything need to be cycled periodically. I have a backup generator. I didn't use it for 6 months and when I needed it, it didn't work. The Ethanol added to gas gets growies in it and it plugs up the jets in the carb.

I'm sure the same applies to all components in standby. Set up a periodic schedule to run stuff to be sure it works so you have time to fix it if it doesn't. If it doesn't work when you try it, your schedule is too long.

Big Al
07-14-2010, 04:25 AM
hi kyle, i'm also a hvac tech you should turn your ac unit on at least 1 time every 6 months just to keep things free and moving. it sounds like you need to install a check valve after your water pump to keep water from draining back. there under $10.00 at home depot. good luck Big Al

kyledwards
07-14-2010, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the replies. Okay, I'll kick on my HVAC every six months (I just don't want to be home).

I was looking at the check valve last night at homedepot and was thinking that would stop the flow going backwards. I'm not to worried about it though.

I added more PVC pipe inside the grow bed, but ran out of light so I didn't get the holes drilled to make the spray bar. Also, added a T and ball valve above the pump to have some of the pumps water flow back into the FT. Works beautifully! Thanks for that suggestion. Now, I just need to hydroton and fish. I'll probably get the hydroton this weekend and play with the flow to get it cycling about twice an hour.

I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again.

badflash
07-14-2010, 10:04 AM
If you put in the check valve, be sure it is easy to remove and clean. This should be done regularly as you get growies in them and they plug up.

keith_r
07-14-2010, 10:12 AM
you might find that the spray holes will tend to get plugged/clogged..
that's why my next system will just tee into the gb, with one pvc pipe to each end of the bed, right now there are holes in my pipes

davidstcldfl
07-14-2010, 10:20 AM
Hi kyledwards .....:)
I didn't know if you had read anything on 'cycling' (conditioning) water' yet ?
Before you get some fish, you may want to give these two links a quick read.

The links are on 'cycling water'....to get the right kinds of bacteria growing/living in the water. They change amonnia to nitrites, then into nitrates.
I think it's easier and less stressful to do it 'before' getting fish.
You can add plants to your grow bed, while cycling too. Then they are already in place, to use the nitrates.
A good water test kit, is a 'must have'.
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum ... f=11&t=131
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum ... f=11&t=133
I wish we had more at DIY on the topic ...these are to another forum.
Hope they help... :D

davidstcldfl
07-14-2010, 10:41 AM
you might find that the spray holes will tend to get plugged/clogged..
Good point....I have a spray bar on the water going into my fish tank. On the 'end', I placed a 90 facing up. As the holes plug up...the water starts to flow out the 90, maintaing the flow of water.. :)
I clean the holes, about every 3 days or so. I think it's worth it, to help with the oxygen.
I'm still saving for a good air pump.

kyledwards
07-14-2010, 11:36 AM
you might find that the spray holes will tend to get plugged/clogged..
Good point....I have a spray bar on the water going into my fish tank. On the 'end', I placed a 90 facing up. As the holes plug up...the water starts to flow out the 90, maintaing the flow of water.. :)
I clean the holes, about every 3 days or so. I think it's worth it, to help with the oxygen.
I'm still saving for a good air pump.

Man, all of you are full of great info! You really have to clean the spray bar holes that often?

I do know about tank cycling and water conditioning. I have a few fish tanks in my house.

davidstcldfl
07-14-2010, 02:10 PM
Man, all of you are full of great info! You really have to clean the spray bar holes that often?
I belive I got the idea of the '90', from TCLynx, when I was at her house (?) The more pictures you see, the more postings you can read...it all starts to add up ....eventually.

I probably clean it, more like 'once a week'....(?) Usually only about 20-25 % of the holes plug. It takes just as long, to go get the nail or drill bit ,as it does to clean it... :)
I started with 'kinda,' small holes. I wanted to make sure the entire bar, had water flow (it's 1" pvc...about 6' long) I guess I could re-drill the holes, one size bigger. That should help.

kyledwards
07-14-2010, 04:13 PM
Man, all of you are full of great info! You really have to clean the spray bar holes that often?
I belive I got the idea of the '90', from TCLynx, when I was at her house (?) The more pictures you see, the more postings you can read...it all starts to add up ....eventually.

I probably clean it, more like 'once a week'....(?) Usually only about 20-25 % of the holes plug. It takes just as long, to go get the nail or drill bit ,as it does to clean it... :)
I started with 'kinda,' small holes. I wanted to make sure the entire bar, had water flow (it's 1" pvc...about 6' long) I guess I could re-drill the holes, one size bigger. That should help.

Thanks David for the reply. Yeah, I built out my water bar around the parmeter of my GB (probably to much now I think about it). I'm not going to drill any holes until I get the hydroton this weekend. Hopefully I get can enough hydroton locally.

tikifrog
08-03-2010, 10:30 AM
Hi kyledwards,

Have you found a place in the Bay Area to get your hydroton?

I went to a hydroponics place in Hayward and picked up a couple bags.

Oldandfound1
08-04-2010, 04:58 PM
The twelve inch bed depth has to do with the length of root depth tomatoes and other plants like. A tomato cage "is" likely to cause liner problems. Better to string up the tomato and climbing plants with overhead support.
A ball valve will allow you to pressurize the run volume to your GB and send the rest back to the FT aeration. GB volume needs to be slow enough for your Bell Siphon to kick off. Keep drilling holes in the aerator pipe till the run volume of the pump is acceptable. You may want to ball valve both the GB line and the aerator line to fine tune the GB fill time. Much more volume returning to the FT than going to the GB. Can't have too much oxygen.
Dennis
Oldandfound1

fish2food
02-17-2011, 08:36 AM
I have added a new growbed as well. It is an HDPE 120 gallon tank that is 77" by 34" wide by 12" deep. It is going to contain 3/4 inch gravel. I'm thinking of putting a trellace behind it so that I can plant tomatoes, squash and viney type veggies. My Fish tank is inside my screenroom so I could not do a flood and drain system, but will have a sump pump. Here is the photo I took in the lower right-hand corner.:mrgreen: