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View Full Version : Ground Dolomite, and other safe suppliments



badflash
07-08-2010, 05:13 AM
My tomato plants started getting yellow leaves. Looked like a magnesium deficiency. Fish water has loads of nitrates and phosphates but can be weak in magnesium, postasium, and trace elements.

I used dolomite, which is a calcium magnesium carbonate that effects pH only slightly and they greened right up.

For Boron I use 20 Mule team Borax. Boron is a trace element. You don't need much. Go sparingly. Too much can harm invertebrates.

Postassium can be found in wood ashes, but be carefull with that. Ashes can really spike your pH. Add to the beds and not the water.

davidstcldfl
07-08-2010, 06:31 AM
Thanks for sharring the info Badflash.

I tried 'azomite' for the 1st time this year. I actually ordered it for my 'dirt' garden. Here in FL, we do not have the trace minerals in the soil (sand). Homegrown tomatoes 'here', taste better then 'store bought'....but not the flavor of ones grown 'up north'....just MHO.
I added it to my 'maters and peppers, I grow in buckets....seemed to help the flavor... :D I maybe, should of used more...it is a little costly.
I have been adding a little to my AP ( I also add maxicrop w/iron.)

It's nickname is the "A-Z" of trace minerals. It's basically mined from vocanic deposits.
ORMI has it classed as 'organic'.

Here's a link to the 'info 'page on azomite......

http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=53 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=53)

badflash
07-08-2010, 07:46 AM
Did a little more checking on Borax. It will kill many bugs. Also excessive levels can be toxic to some plants.

The basic ratio of Borax to surface area should be no more than one tablespoon to 100 square feet.

Cabbage-family plants, strawberries, carrots, sunflowers and beets all appreciate boron. Beans don't.

Flavor of tomatoes has a lot to do with the variety you grow. What are you growing?

davidstcldfl
07-08-2010, 08:52 AM
Flavor of tomatoes has a lot to do with the variety you grow. What are you growing?
Your right about the varietys having different flavors...or lack of. I have tried many over the years in FL. But, we just don't have the minerals in our 'sandbox' soil...... :roll:

badflash
07-08-2010, 10:48 AM
Aquaponics can fix that. High nitrates for lush growth, then cut back for fruiting. Doctor the minerals as needed.

badflash
07-08-2010, 10:50 AM
Another point on the boron. You only need to do this when there are signs of need and probably only once every couple of years, or after a drain & refill of the system.

stucco
07-08-2010, 10:56 AM
the varietys having different flavors
How was the flavor of the one you ate out of my garden? I still have that caterpillar taste in my mouth. :lol:

JCO
07-08-2010, 02:38 PM
Stucco...don't eat the yellow snow (or tomato worms)...just trying to help :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

davidstcldfl
07-08-2010, 05:46 PM
I tried telling Stucco, that it was just some fresh protien..... :lol:

Doc
06-05-2011, 06:42 PM
Thanks for sharring the info Badflash.

I tried 'azomite' for the 1st time this year. I actually ordered it for my 'dirt' garden. Here in FL, we do not have the trace minerals in the soil (sand). Homegrown tomatoes 'here', taste better then 'store bought'....but not the flavor of ones grown 'up north'....just MHO.
I added it to my 'maters and peppers, I grow in buckets....seemed to help the flavor... :D I maybe, should of used more...it is a little costly.
I have been adding a little to my AP ( I also add maxicrop w/iron.)

It's nickname is the "A-Z" of trace minerals. It's basically mined from vocanic deposits.
ORMI has it classed as 'organic'.

Here's a link to the 'info 'page on azomite......

http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=53 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=53)

David, how much Azomite have you been adding to your AP system? The Azomite website shows a pic of some tilapia from a study from Thailand and it indicates that the Azomite increases the growth of the tilapia and I assume that it would also improve the plant growth in your AP system as it does in plants in the ground. Here is the pic of the fish/

http://www.azomite.com/images/stories/tilapia.jpg

The link is http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=70 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76%3Atilapia-study-thailand&catid=44%3Aaquatic&Itemid=70)

Doc

urbanfarmer
06-05-2011, 08:55 PM
I would ask for a written copy of their study and not just a picture of three fish. Because of so many of the minerals, it may address a deficiency in the fish, which could result in more growth. However, that does not mean the fish are healthier or even safe to eat. If you are over a certain age and already have children, your risk factor is astronomically less than say younger folk. Heck, I won't handle plant rooting hormones without gloves because I still want to have children! This is not a problem for the older folk I work with though! :lol:

I personally would feel uncomfortable using Azomite because it contains arsenic, lead, mercury, uranium, cadmium, flourine, among other things...

SOURCE: http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=11 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=11)
http://www.azomite.com/images/stories/cert%20of%20analysis%202009_04.jpg

urbanfarmer
09-25-2011, 08:19 AM
WOW, a lot of people buy this stuff. I never thought I would actually have to tell people NOT to add URANIUM, MERCURY, LEAD, ARSENIC, or FLUORINE to their garden or aquaponic system...

P.S. Where is the study regarding the fish growth? I had emailed the company months ago; needless to say, they never responded. I guess they're not used to people actually checking their sources and claims made by companies! :lol:

cedarswamp
09-25-2011, 09:03 AM
My tomato plants started getting yellow leaves. Looked like a magnesium deficiency. Fish water has loads of nitrates and phosphates but can be weak in magnesium, postasium, and trace elements.

I used dolomite, which is a calcium magnesium carbonate that effects pH only slightly and they greened right up.

For Boron I use 20 Mule team Borax. Boron is a trace element. You don't need much. Go sparingly. Too much can harm invertebrates.

Postassium can be found in wood ashes, but be carefull with that. Ashes can really spike your pH. Add to the beds and not the water.

What dosing rate did you use for the dolomite? I've been contemplating adding it and also epsom salt (both of which I use on my ground and bucket tomatoes) to my system.

davidstcldfl
09-25-2011, 09:38 AM
WOW, a lot of people buy this stuff. I never thought I would actually have to tell people NOT to add URANIUM, MERCURY, LEAD, ARSENIC, or FLUORINE to their garden or aquaponic system...
Your right UF, it doesn't seem right to use it...does it ?


This is interesting.....the MSDS 'does not' say it's 'not safe'...
http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=15 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61&Itemid=15)

AZOMITEŽ - Material Safety Data Sheet
Hazardous Ingredients: None known

It also, has an 'organic' rating for animal feed....
http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=67 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=196&Itemid=67)

It also has 2 'organic' ratings for food production.....
http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=229 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=221&Itemid=229)

http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=229 (http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=221&Itemid=229)

I'm trying to get a grasp of the percentages they use. I'm better with 'visuals'..., they go by parts per million. In order to make this easy to picture (and figure the math)...

...If I have 1,000,000 (one million) pounds, or 20,833.4 cubic feet of azomite piled up in my backyard (and a few of my neighbor's :roll: ) I would have 4 pds of uranium, 6.2 pds of lead, 1.1 pds of arsenic, and 900 pds of fluorine.... :o
For a few seconds, I thought I might be 'rich'...but I'd only have 12 pds of copper, 2.6 pds of nickel, 5/1,000 of a pound of silver and the same for gold.... :cry:


I wonder if azomite could be considered a representation of earth's average makeup...?
'If it is', there is 'no where' to raise food. Well, I did see some pictures/video of a lab in Japan where they were growing in a clean room environment, with special lights.... :?
'if it is', Should we all live in bubbles? Then that brings up another issue, what should the bubbles be made out of...and what and how should we filter the air we breathe.... :lol: .. :P

I did add a little azomite to 'half of' my pepper plants I started a few months ago.(36 out of 72) The ones 'with azomite' are about 40% bigger. Same dirt, same pot size, same seed batch, started side by side on a bench outside.
EDIT/NOTE: They were just over a month old in 4 inch pots. I added maybe an 1/8 of a teaspoon (if that much) as a side dressing and watered as usual. A month later, my buddy was able to 'pick out' the one's with the azomite.

urbanfarmer
09-25-2011, 12:16 PM
Unlike the natural soil outside, container gardens and aquaponics are closed systems. The above listed elements will accumulate in the water and the fish and possibly the plants.

The misconception of "certified organic" is little more than marketing. Just because it wasn't synthetically made in a factory doesn't mean the uranium mined out of the ground is any safer for you. Can you or anyone else even define organic? To me organic is any carbon containing compound typically produced by the metabolic processes of a living organism. I guess sheeple have been taught to feel warm and fuzzy when they see "certified organic" next to something. Even at the training they mentioned they are required to spray down their "certified organic" vegetables with dangerous synthetic chemicals before sending them to Cosco, remember?

Lastly, we have plenty of things we can inject or feed to animals or plants that will make them grow better. It doesn't mean it's safe, but we've done it for a long time. I guess don't ask don't tell applies with this azomite stuff?

davidstcldfl
09-25-2011, 01:54 PM
Unlike the natural soil outside, container gardens and aquaponics are closed systems. The above listed elements will accumulate in the water and the fish and possibly the plants.
I can see your point, that a regular dirt garden would have less of a chance to build up. A wicking bed, would perhaps, have the greatest chance of build up. While a container garden, should be next in line.

True, an aquaponic system is considered 'closed'. However saying the elements would 'build up', is some what, miss-leading. If that statement were completely true....after a few months we could pull the fish out and never add any more nutrients, because they are in a 'closed' system. Wouldn't that be nice... :)

The folks 'down under' regularly add salt to their systems. I've read threads in their forums where they discuss 'how many PPT' to use, and 'how often' they need to 'add more' ( using a meter to measure the salt. Seemed most used 1 ppt...up to 3 ppt was common) I remember one fellow mentioned how he could taste it in his celery. They were talking 'parts of a year'...adding more, a few times a year. Obviously the plants are using up 'any thing' in the water they can. Of course that is dependant on plant type, PH of the water, ect.

Also, rain water can dilute the system's water. As you know, here in FL, we can have an inch or two in an afternoon summer storm.
Of course, not every one does this...I have a swirl filter, and on a regular basis I'm removing and adding new water.

I'm not trying to say we even should use azomite in our systems. But after seeing the results 1st hand, when I did use it on my seedlings.... I have to wonder at how important are the interactions of the macro, and micro nutes with the more common ones..?....things that make you go 'Hmmmmm ?'

Yeah, the 'organic' thing is over rated. Too many inconsistencies... :roll:
Actually I don't remember them saying they had to spray something on their organic produce before shipping. Might of been when I was sitting in the back, I had to move forward, my hearing isn't what it use to be.. :roll:
What was the purpose of the spray ? Did they happen to say?

urbanfarmer
09-25-2011, 02:09 PM
Uranium occurs naturally in low concentrations of a few parts per million in soil. If you keep adding it to a closed system, even if over a period of a year, it will easily be 10's, 100's, or 1000's of times that. ESPECIALLY, if you're a MAN because you're going to think MORE IS BETTER. Do not lie, you would do it! :lol:

They said they were required to use the spray to "sterilize" the produce. They tried to oppose it, but they had to do it regardless. They considered it ironic they had organic on the label and had to spray synthetic chemicals on the produce AFTER it was harvested.

I don't think it's misleading at all regarding the build up. Plants take up nutrients they need unlike mercury, arsenic, etc. HOWEVER, fish have something called osmoregulation and if it is in the water it will get in their system (as well as any other organisms that absorb it like bacteria or other things they eat). This is what happens with ocean caught fish, etc.

The "salt" or table salt is DIFFERENT. As I have been trying to tell everyone for so long, plants take up SODIUM in place of POTASSIUM and actually become more succulent as a result showing no signs of deficiency with the right amount of sodium. What you might even find interesting is Disney showed their aquaponic system at the conference, and when she showed the analysis of nutrients (they carefully monitor) I noticed they had 0 ppm potassium and they were adding sodium. Of course, no one in the room got it, but I quickly asked her about it and she confirmed they do in fact use this method in their aquaponics. I doubt they read this forum since they are quite educated and figured it out on their own, but my "THEORY" is confirmed.

So, if you don't add too much "salt" the plants do "eat" the salt and remove it in a closed system like aquaponics, but they DO NOT uptake much mercury, arsenic, etc (nor would you want them to). Unfortunately, the fish DO absorb some of these things (I can't say which they absorb or at what quantity, but I know arsenic and mercury and lead, but maybe all of them).

Again, I would NEVER add these things to my system. If you could REMOVE those elements from azomite, I would gladly use it.

NOW, as far as the GROWTH. It might be as simple as there are unidentified nutrients required by these organisms via the bacteria for the plants or the fish directly (plants get their nutrients from bacteria including antibiotics, vitamins, and hormones, etc). So, if your bacteria or plants have a genuine deficiency that "modern science" has yet to identify, adding azomite will help while at the SAME TIME adding dangerous toxins. It doesn't mean it's a good idea. While the claims and your observations are interesting, MY issue is with the dangerous elements (THERE'S URANIUM FOR GOD'S SAKE, U-R-A-N-I-U-M) for our purposes.

urbanfarmer
09-25-2011, 02:45 PM
This is what happens to a solution of pure water starting at 7 pH when you add 4 ppm Uranium:

pH: 4.176
Ionic Strength: 3.36e-05

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/869/unledlfk.jpg

It could easily bind to something and get absorbed with something else in an aquaponic system... but hey, makes a hell of a pH down, don't you think??? :lol:

davidstcldfl
09-25-2011, 05:38 PM
Uranium occurs naturally in low concentrations of a few parts per million in soil. If you keep adding it to a closed system, even if over a period of a year, it will easily be 10's, 100's, or 1000's of times that. ESPECIALLY, if you're a MAN because you're going to think MORE IS BETTER. Do not lie, you would do it!
:lol: ....your right 'us guys' would do it... :lol:

Lets keep using my 'off the wall' visual in the above post...in which I used 1 million pounds of azomite. And add your statement to it...
(I'm really tired....hope this makes sense...and hope my math is correct.. :roll: )

You said soil has 'a few' ppm of uranium....let's say 2. In order to get my backyard system's water up to 2ppm, a natural level...I would need to add 'x' pds of azomite...?

A cubic foot of the stuff is 48 pounds...a million pounds would be aprox 20,833 cu ft.
A gallon of water is a cu foot.

My backyard system is (just over) 2,000 gals/ cu ft....so my system's water is aprox 10% of the volume of the 20,833 cu ft (1 million pds of azomite)

Adding 10 % of azomite would give me 4 ppm, so I need to reduce that to 5 %.

In order to get 2 ppm of uranium into my system, a natural occurring level in soil....I would need to add 1,042 cu ft... 'or' ...50,000 pds of azomite to my backyard system.... :shock: .....wow, is my math correct ?



The "salt" or table salt is DIFFERENT. As I have been trying to tell everyone for so long, plants take up SODIUM in place of POTASSIUM and actually become more succulent as a result showing no signs of deficiency with the right amount of sodium.
So, I'm wasting my time adding banana peels to my media beds....oh well, the worms love them... :)

UF, What could we use, to add sodium to our systems (something 'cheap' and natural)....and how much per 100 gals to add 1 ppm ?

urbanfarmer
09-25-2011, 06:12 PM
People have thresholds for diseases caused my metal toxicities. Mercury is one of the suspected causes for an increas in Alzhiemers for old folks and ADHD and some other diseases I can't remember off the top of my head. I'm not worried about what will happen next week, in a year, or even 5 years, but I'm worried about what will happen beyond that. Hell, I could eat a bag of that stuff right now and be fine in the morning, but I might have some ill effects in a few decades. The research on this is slowly coming out, and there are many good documentaries out there on this kind of stuff.

Believe it or not mercury is the most toxic non-radioactive metal known to man. It's actually far worse than uranium by comparison... We're already very poisoned and if I'm going to eat vegetables and tilapia they better be clear of toxins otherwise I might as well buy from China... :lol:


the lethal dose for most adult humans is estimated at 5 to 10 g (which is equivalent to 32 to 64 mg/kg elemental fluoride/kg body weight)

P.S. You would need about 8,000 pounds of azomite for a 2,000 gallon system to get 2 ppm U, but I see your point. A big giant alarm went off in my head when I saw some of the elements and the quantities it has. However, Fluorine is still a concern being 900 ppm. The lethal does for humans is 15 ppm or 2.4 g (the above is the total weight of NaF not just F). So, I guess I was wrong, I can't eat a bag of this stuff... I would actually drop dead after eating 2 pounds of it from the Fluorine alone!!!!



UF, What could we use, to add sodium to our systems (something 'cheap' and natural)....and how much per 100 gals to add 1 ppm ?
Cheap I know, but what are you looking for in terms of "natural" ? You can use sea water? :-) In fact, I heard in some regions farmers go collect sea water once a year for their crop because the growth it adds is substantial (this has to do with the dozens of nutrients in it).

Table salt could work. Most folks use NaOH, sodium hydroxide, as a pH up. The Friendly's said don't do this because it will fail or something (I don't remember their reasoning), but it's what Disney uses successfully now for years as a pH up.

Don't go over 50-60 ppm of sodium according to the head horticulturalist at Disney. She cited some research off the top of her heard (some guy from the 80's), but I didn't have a pen... LOL

Table salt is 40% sodium by mass; so, for every 100 mg of table salt per liter of water you will have 40 ppm of sodium.

P.S. I still use banana peels and wood ash. The reason is I focus on the nutritional value of my crop not just the growth or commercial value. YOU ON THE OTHER HAND SHOULD CONSIDER WHICH WAY IS CHEAPER. Sodium also yields better looking plants and it makes them hardier all around.

It's REALLY weird because the same thing happens to humans with CALCIUM. They found people that intake STRONTIUM in place of CALCIUM have much stronger bones and some other unbelievable health benefits. Basically, their bones end up being made of STRONTIUM... It almost sounds like WOLVERINE FROM XMEN??? :lol:

urbanfarmer
09-25-2011, 06:22 PM
When I have time I am going to look more carefully at the total quantities of what is in this stuff because it's pretty cheap and if it increases fish growth 15% to 45% like it claims it could help on this mission trip I hope to be going on... The more food the better, right! :mrgreen:

I hate to say it though, but in 3rd world countries I don't think the concern of toxicity is even an issue...

davidstcldfl
09-26-2011, 07:16 AM
It's a shame, that there is uranium and mercury and a few others in it.

I didn't see where they talked about giving it to fish...? I guess they were adding it to the feed ?

Maybe, in the mission field, you could use the azomite on plants that your growing in the ground...and watering with AP water (?)
I'd be concerned if azomite was in the water, being used to raise duck weed.....for animal feed or human consumption. Duckweed does such a great job picking up every thing in the water, even heavy metals.

In regards to ADHD....there is a doctor in central Fl, that treats children with it, by just changing their diet. He has a success rate in the mid 90 % range. He said the 'biggie' was food dye, especially 'red'.
It's a shame, he said, some parents thought it was too much of an effort, to feed their children healthy diets. It was 'easier' to treat with drugs... and to feed fast foods, 'heat and eat' pre-made foods, and lunch meats.... :roll: :cry:

urbanfarmer
09-26-2011, 09:09 AM
It's a shame, that there is uranium and mercury and a few others in it.

I didn't see where they talked about giving it to fish...? I guess they were adding it to the feed ?

Maybe, in the mission field, you could use the azomite on plants that your growing in the ground...and watering with AP water (?)
I'd be concerned if azomite was in the water, being used to raise duck weed.....for animal feed or human consumption. Duckweed does such a great job picking up every thing in the water, even heavy metals.

In regards to ADHD....there is a doctor in central Fl, that treats children with it, by just changing their diet. He has a success rate in the mid 90 % range. He said the 'biggie' was food dye, especially 'red'.
It's a shame, he said, some parents thought it was too much of an effort, to feed their children healthy diets. It was 'easier' to treat with drugs... and to feed fast foods, 'heat and eat' pre-made foods, and lunch meats.... :roll: :cry:
That is sad...

Yes, they put the azomite in the fish feed and claimed a growth increase as much as 50%.

I kind of want to take about a pound of this stuff with me now because I want to run a side-by-side test for growing the fish. I have some non-traditional ideas to help these people grow some food... Hopefully, my "theories" hold up! LOL