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Emmett
06-08-2010, 09:17 AM
So I'm a newb but I've been doing research for a while and picked up a few tips that sound like they'd be useful. Anyone let me know if you've tried these and how they've worked.

2 asprin tablets to a gallon of solution to drop it from 8 to 6. And to raise PH they suggest to use 1 Tablespoon of baking soda into 3 Gallons of solution then wait 10 minutes until rechecking PH.

Pollination can be achieved by shaking the plant at the first sign of blooms, then daily for about three days. Tomatoes need to be pollinated between 11 a.m. and noon for best results. Flowers do like rather high humidity for pollination, so -if need be- mist the plants twice during the time you shake them. Harvest daily and pick off any deformed or damaged fruit.
(from Secrets to a Successful Greenhouse Business by T.M. Taylor)

Using a Multimeter to determine PPM
I haven't tested this, but it makes sense and it would save a lot of money buying a PPM meter.
I E.C. or 1 Siemen = 1 mho/cm of conductivity. To convert E.C. or Siemen to PPM, multiply them by 650. The Mho is the reciprocal of the Ohm of electrical resistance, Mho=1/ohm

Hydroponics people talk about using hydrogen peroxide to add oxygen to your system and kill off harmful bacterial and pathogens. I'd only think about it in a last ditch effort with an aquaponics system since it should also kill of the beneficial bacteria. I also don't know what it would do to fish, so you'd have to isolate the FT while you were doing this.

jackalope
06-08-2010, 01:33 PM
Hi Emmett! Welcome to the forum, (if I haven't already welcomed you). Very interesting ideas ..... I can check out a couple of these ideas with my feeder Guppies and see how they work, if I can find the time before I leave - I won't be back for a month or so .......

1). Hmmmmm aspirin , I'm not sure we have any around, but I will check.

2). Did the shaking thing last year, didn't work for me with tomatoes or squash, a tiny paint brush worked better. Didn't know about the 11-noon thing, sometimes those ideas can prove to be invaluable ;) When you mist them, is that before or after you shake them? I'm not growing anything for now, so someone else will have to test this one.

3). I'm trying to understand the multimeter part ..... what specific PPM are you testing?
Is this just a general test for the amount of salts in the fish poop water, or are you going to add Hydroponics nutrients to your FT/GBs? I would be concerned with that as some of the nutrients may be toxic to the fish.


Parts per million - PPM - is a way of measuring how much nutrient is in the plant water. For example, 1,000 PPM means that 1,000 units of nutrients are present for every million units of water. The PPM number is only a final reading of the total salts (nutrients) in a nutrient solution; it does not tell how much of each salt or what trace elements are in the nutrient mix, or how good the mix is.

Anyone who has eaten salty food knows how thirsty one gets afterwards. Salts in water create a very high osmotic pressure, and the only way this internal pressure can relieve itself is to grab more water to dilute itself. This is why one can drink so much water after eating salty food.

Since all nutrients are salts, the more nutrients that are in the plant water, the more these salts will try to steal water away from the roots. 1,500 PPM is a salty solution. After about 2,000 PPM, the osmotic pressure starts to get so high that the roots struggle to get enough water (see graph on the next page). As a result, the nutrient balance available to the plant changes as the salinity rises.

There are still those who try to jam their plants with nutrients. As the general level of the nutrient salts gets higher and higher in a nutrient mix, the different chemicals start to fight each other for water and this causes the roots to work harder to get water. The more energy the roots must use to extract water, the less they have for growth. This forces the plant to soon show nutrient deficiencies and shortages, and the more salts are added to fix these apparent shortages, the worse the problem gets. It is far better to give the plant the correct amount of nutrients for as long as it needs it.

For reasons mentioned before, all re-circulating water culture systems should have one day a week on straight water. The nutrient should be completely changed on this day. This is the only way to avoid a cumulative error, which can occur if make-up nutrients are continually added.

On a scale of high to low for water culture nutrient concentration:
over 2,000 PPM is high.
1,500 PPM is definitely saline.
1,000 PPM is an average.
500 PPM is workable, but on the low side.

From what I can figure, you multiply the number of Ohms by 650 to get the PPMs. Is that the general idea?

4). I won't have time to set up a small biofilter and small FT to try this out, so I'll have to leave that to someone else at this juncture!

Emmett
06-08-2010, 02:58 PM
About the PPM I think it's just the salts. One thing in that tip that is important is that mho is ohms inverted. I don't know what mho is, but this would make sense since higher PPM means better conductivity. So. . .

I think this is how it's supposed to work
PPM = (ohms / -1) x 650

I could be wrong. Also you'd have to hold the test leads about one cm apart in the water to get the right reading.

dufflight
06-08-2010, 03:17 PM
aspirin is used as a blood thinner. Not sure how that will affect fish.

Emmett
06-08-2010, 03:18 PM
They won't get so many headaches? :D

JCO
06-08-2010, 06:19 PM
Welcome to the show....pull up an easy chair, relax and stay awhile. New voices are always a welcome addition to our family..! Whatever questions you have on you mind, this is the place to get the answers :mrgreen:

Emmett
06-09-2010, 06:01 AM
Oops bad data earlier. One mho is the reciprocal of one ohm so it's like this.

PPM = (1 / ohms) x 650

mho is the abbreviation for the SI unit Siemens. I think someone was just having way too much fun with that. (mho is the reciprical of ohm :lol: . . . anybody? anybody? I'm a geek. )

urbanrunoff
06-09-2010, 06:46 AM
i was wondering about hydro peroxide too.
it is used a lot in soil based and hydroponic growing :?:

Emmett
06-09-2010, 12:42 PM
I would imagine it would be bad for necessary bacteria but better than having to bleach out your GB if there was a harmful infection. Oh and as an aside, don't use the stuff that you see at the drug store it has chemicals in it to stabilize the peroxide. Use only the 35% peroxide that they use in gardens.

McStylee
10-11-2010, 04:15 PM
Hydrogen Peroxide used in the correct quantities is very benefiacial to your entire system. The one you want to use is the food grade 35% that has not had stabilizers added to it. All it effectively does is release the extra oxygen molecule that it carries into your system creating an oxygen rich environment. The bacteria in a biofilter are aerobic bacteria so they will thrive on it. Most nasty bacteria is anaerobic and cannot survive in an oxygen rich environment. I use this chemical alot for the transport of fingerlings from my hatchery to commercial fish farms that buy from me. I also use it as a first attempt cure all for any fish diseases we encounter. Only if this fails do I go onto the other stuff. It is also very effective as a foliar spray for your plants and helps get rid of plant eating pests. Its 1:14 am right now and I'm at home but will get the dosages for you when I go to the office tomorrow.

urbanfarmer
10-29-2010, 08:58 PM
I would imagine it would be bad for necessary bacteria but better than having to bleach out your GB if there was a harmful infection. Oh and as an aside, don't use the stuff that you see at the drug store it has chemicals in it to stabilize the peroxide. Use only the 35% peroxide that they use in gardens.
Composition/Information on Ingredients of HYDROGEN PEROXIDE SOLUTION 3%

Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous
--------------------------------------- ------------ ------------ ---------

Hydrogen Peroxide 7722-84-1 2 - 4% Yes
Phenacetin 62-44-2 < 0.05% No
Water 7732-18-5 96 - 98% No

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/h4070.htm


Phenacetin, and products containing phenacetin, have been shown in an animal model to have the side effect and after-effect of carcinogenesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenacetin

urbanfarmer
10-29-2010, 09:17 PM
Hydrogen Peroxide used in the correct quantities is very benefiacial to your entire system. The one you want to use is the food grade 35% that has not had stabilizers added to it. All it effectively does is release the extra oxygen molecule that it carries into your system creating an oxygen rich environment. The bacteria in a biofilter are aerobic bacteria so they will thrive on it. Most nasty bacteria is anaerobic and cannot survive in an oxygen rich environment. I use this chemical alot for the transport of fingerlings from my hatchery to commercial fish farms that buy from me. I also use it as a first attempt cure all for any fish diseases we encounter. Only if this fails do I go onto the other stuff. It is also very effective as a foliar spray for your plants and helps get rid of plant eating pests. Its 1:14 am right now and I'm at home but will get the dosages for you when I go to the office tomorrow.
I have always read this, but I wanted to evaluate your claim (at least from a chemical perspective) as far as how much oxygen hydrogen peroxide actually adds to the water. Below is my brute analysis (I say brute because your fish would die in that solution... I think).

(35% H2O2) X (1000 g) = 350 g of H2O2 per Liter

ASSUMING 1 LITER:

(*350 g of H2O2) x (1 mol / 34.0147 g) = 10.290 mol of H2O2

2 H2O2 => H2O + O2

THEREFORE:

(10.290 mol of H2O2) x (1 mol O2 / 1 mol H2O2) x (31.9988 g / mol O2) = 329.268 g O2 or about 329 g O2 in 1 Liter

FROM: http://www.unuftp.is/static/fellows/document/yovita07prf.pdf
The recommended minimum dissolved oxygen requirements are as follows:
Cold water fish - 6 mg per litre (70% saturation)
Tropical freshwater fish- 5 mg per litre (80% saturation)
Tropical marine fish- 5 mg per litre (75% saturation)

IN CONCLUSION, a solution of 35% hydrogen peroxide has 54,833 times MORE dissolved oxygen than the minimum required for cold water fish.

THIS IS SIGNIFICANT.

badflash
10-30-2010, 09:03 AM
I would be very careful using this. H2O2 will attach sensitive flesh like gills. Gargle with some dilute H2O2 and see what it does to your gums and tongue. It won't harm you that way, but think about what that would do to your lung capacity.

urbanfarmer
10-30-2010, 06:54 PM
I would be very careful using this. H2O2 will attach sensitive flesh like gills. Gargle with some dilute H2O2 and see what it does to your gums and tongue. It won't harm you that way, but think about what that would do to your lung capacity.
Yes, I make no claims as to its feasible use in an aquaponic system whatsoever. Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer and could readily kill fish in large enough concentrations. Very small, and I emphasize VERY, small doses would do no harm to the fish since H2O2 occurs naturally and spontaneously in water, but as to the proper dosage... I don't know.

EDIT 06/05/2011: Proper dosage can be found here: Hydrogen Peroxide Disease Prevention/Remediation (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?956-Hydrogen-Peroxide-Disease-Prevention-Remediation)

Brier
10-30-2010, 09:25 PM
If it has not been mentioned, many aquarists use H2O2 for both algae control, and transportation,IE adding emergency O2 to the water. In limited quantities it can be helpful. People also use it to aerate tanks during power outages.

kneedeepinwater
06-05-2011, 07:02 PM
Hi guys I am new here. I have been looking into starting up an aquaponics operation and have been doing some research. This site seems very friendly and is the only site I have joined. I hope to learn an abundance and hope to help if I can.

I would like to offer a little info on some things that have been posted earlier. I know jack shit about aquaculture or aquaponics but as I said I have been doing a lot of searching and learning. I have been dealing with hydroponics for almost 10 years though.

I do realize this is an old post but I would like to offer my 2 cents if that's ok :D

Maybe it's a new thing but I haven't really heard about ph being used as ph down, although I have heard lemon juice is good.

I have heard about the pollination method mention and also heard you should spray the plants being pollinated with water before shaking to help the pollen stick.

PPM meters are great but they are useless in organics which from what I have read is what aquaponics is all about. They only measure salts which is what chemical fertilizers contain. Also I know the PH is important for the fish BUT when it comes to plants that are being grown organically it doesn't matter what your PH is.

Also when plants are being grown using hydroponics the best PH is between 5.3 and 5.8, slow swings between those numbers are the best so your plants can absorb all nutrients. 5.8 is optimum though.

Hydrogen Peroxide is a NO NO in organics or when you are trying to use beneficial bacteria. Not sure when it comes to fish though. Yes Hydrogen Peroxide is great for killing bad bacteria but it will also kill all good bacteria. Peroxide is known to be a good agent to combat root rot and its known to keep your roots pearly white. There is another alternative to peroxide though that accomplishes everything it does and more. The name of this product is Hygrozyme. This stuff is great for plants and the roots love it and its all natural.

urbanfarmer
06-05-2011, 08:46 PM
Hi guys I am new here. I have been looking into starting up an aquaponics operation and have been doing some research. This site seems very friendly and is the only site I have joined. I hope to learn an abundance and hope to help if I can.

I would like to offer a little info on some things that have been posted earlier. I know jack shit about aquaculture or aquaponics but as I said I have been doing a lot of searching and learning. I have been dealing with hydroponics for almost 10 years though.

I do realize this is an old post but I would like to offer my 2 cents if that's ok :D

Maybe it's a new thing but I haven't really heard about ph being used as ph down, although I have heard lemon juice is good.

I have heard about the pollination method mention and also heard you should spray the plants being pollinated with water before shaking to help the pollen stick.

PPM meters are great but they are useless in organics which from what I have read is what aquaponics is all about. They only measure salts which is what chemical fertilizers contain. Also I know the PH is important for the fish BUT when it comes to plants that are being grown organically it doesn't matter what your PH is.

Also when plants are being grown using hydroponics the best PH is between 5.3 and 5.8, slow swings between those numbers are the best so your plants can absorb all nutrients. 5.8 is optimum though.

Hydrogen Peroxide is a NO NO in organics or when you are trying to use beneficial bacteria. Not sure when it comes to fish though. Yes Hydrogen Peroxide is great for killing bad bacteria but it will also kill all good bacteria. Peroxide is known to be a good agent to combat root rot and its known to keep your roots pearly white. There is another alternative to peroxide though that accomplishes everything it does and more. The name of this product is Hygrozyme. This stuff is great for plants and the roots love it and its all natural.
Welcome kneedeepinwater! You seem very passionate and eager to learn; so, I will give you the boot camp version for the topics you have covered. Basically, you have a lot of misinformation or incomplete information.

Ferns, Psilotum, Lycopodium, Selaginella, Equisetum, Bryophytes require water for sexual reproduction, but none of the vegetables I have ever planted do. As far as helping things along or stick, it may actually do the opposite for some plants that come to mind. I have never looked at the chemical composition of pollen and I am unfamiliar with the biological impact of being wetted to the point of saturation, but I would imagine that if you wet the flowering parts before shaking the pollen it would either stick to random things, not move at all, or have been sprayed off into oblivion. Anyway, you should thoroughly check into that and post back here when you have some more information! :D

I assume you are talking about TDS meters not "PPM meters" because I would love to have a "PPM meter" for pH, nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, and many other inorganic chemicals present in my system. Anyway, TDS readings are not useless, but they are just that, a reading of the TOTAL DISSOLVED SOLIDS. Their use in hydroponics is accurate because you know what TDS you start with, what TDS you add, and what TDS you have left after X amount of time. Basic arithmetic will yield what has been absorbed (or is otherwise missing) from your system. In Aquaponics, we have a complex system with many sources of inputs that affect TDS. Having the TDS will have a weak and not very meaningful correlations with nutrients. However, TDS can be too high for certains plants, fish, and other organisms in the system and in very specific instances may be needed. It is not commonplace for most, however.

Your numbers for pH are shortsighted in that it does not tell the whole story. Different situations call for different pH levels, and having a wider fluctuation than you described can have the same beneficial effect you describe. pH is far too complicated of a topic to go over right now, but I would not recommend that low of a pH to the novice. I would recommend a pH closer to 7.

Hydrogen peroxide is fine if properly used. I would not recommend it to the novice until either an adequate knowledge has been gained in all things aquaponics or there is an emergency and that is the only material on hand (or if budget dictates). Needless to say, dumping hydrogen peroxide or any other chemical into your system in mass quantities is a foolish venture.

rfeiller
06-05-2011, 09:32 PM
kneedeepinwater is correct on his pH for hydroponics. the only reason for the higher pH in aquaponics that i can figure out is for the tilapia and to try to increase the toxicity of ammonia which increased the level of nitrates. all fish that i have had experience breeding and raising that icludes native fish like bass, crappie, blue gill, sun fish, and channel cats, prefer lower pH's. in fact most fish do very well at 6.0 or lower a lower pH lowers the bacteria count of these disease carrying organisms. fish from rain water areas such as is found primarily in the tropics a pH of 4.-4.5 is common. the natives are not afraid to drink this water. the only cure for some very fast moving bacterial or viral infections in the hatchery was in droping the pH to 4.0 within a few hours. by the way if the water is clean, no ammonia, nitrites or nitrates moving fish from a pH of 7.5 to 5.pH produces no ill affects.

if someone is raising anything but tilapia i would recommend a pH of 6.0. the fish still produce the same amount of waste into the system, it would be an interesting study into how the waste products would be assimulated by the plants.

the tri meter used in hydroponics measures pH, temperature, and ppm of nutrients measuring the conductivity of the nutrient solution. yes the nutrients in hydroponics are sometimes salt based.

urbanfarmer
06-05-2011, 09:56 PM
kneedeepinwater is correct on his pH for hydroponics. the only reason for the higher pH in aquaponics that i can figure out is for the tilapia and to try to increase the toxicity of ammonia which increased the level of nitrates. all fish that i have had experience breeding and raising that icludes native fish like bass, crappie, blue gill, sun fish, and channel cats, prefer lower pH's. in fact most fish do very well at 6.0 or lower a lower pH lowers the bacteria count of these disease carrying organisms. fish from rain water areas such as is found primarily in the tropics a pH of 4.-4.5 is common. the natives are not afraid to drink this water. the only cure for some very fast moving bacterial or viral infections in the hatchery was in droping the pH to 4.0 within a few hours. by the way if the water is clean, no ammonia, nitrites or nitrates moving fish from a pH of 7.5 to 5.pH produces no ill affects.
It is not for the Tilapia. I don't breed my fish directly in the AP system (although I found the goldfish breeding in 7.5 with no problems as far as I can tell). Tilapia will of course breed in almost any reasonable pH range, heck I think I spotted a couple of Tilapia in a back ally down the street reproducing... so just about anywhere. All kidding aside, the effects of pH are very complicated and the issue is compounded in commercial operations. Without sound scientific research into very specific applications of pH in aquaponics, there is nothing more than folklore and the only real advice any of us can give is, "If it works for you and you're happy with it, that's the best pH." I believe it is possible to have a more profitable commercial AP system with a pH of 8 versus a pH of 6, and I have posted research on this.


if someone is raising anything but tilapia i would recommend a pH of 6.0. the fish still produce the same amount of waste into the system, it would be an interesting study into how the waste products would be assimulated by the plants.
It has been studied and the topic is more or less settled in the scientific community. The effect of pH on nutrient uptake in plants in both soil and water are known. There are a lot of charts floating around on the forum that summarize these data.



the tri meter used in hydroponics measures pH, temperature, and ppm of nutrients measuring the conductivity of the nutrient solution. yes the nutrients in hydroponics are sometimes salt based.
Again, PPM is like a unit, in this case a density or unit mass per unit volume. In other words, PPM of what? If we are talking TDS in PPM then it's a number based of the EC, and everything I said above applies.