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GreenPhoenix
06-02-2010, 06:53 PM
OK, so I have some news to tell and also I find myself in need of help from the all of the people on this forum. A little background on me - I am a high school teacher of Biology, Environmental Science, and Physics as a mid-size private school in Dallas, TX. Since I started at this school, I have been working to convince my superiors that the creation of an comprehensive Aquaponics program would be a great thing for our students...

Well I just got the work yesterday that we are moving forward with this. So here is the deal, I have support from all appropriate parties. We are now at the phase where the formal proposal needs to be written and presented to the Board of Directors. While I have explained the concept fully to the people I have talked to, it seems that the Board is going to want a written formal proposal that includes a budget, site design schematic and usage plan. Well I have the usage plan completed, I have been told to "shoot the moon" in my proposed budget.... Meaning I am going to write this as if money is no object. (Well in truth, maybe as if it were a small relatively minor object.)

So here is where I need your help -- I need some help designing this system. I will be the first to admit that I am very much a newcomer to the whole idea of AP. I have a basic working idea of how things go together and what they will encompass for a large system... But as the school will want this pretty much designed to the hilt BEFORE it is built, I currently find myself out of my element.

Current Constraints:

Total Space designated for the program: 20 ' x 20' (it will be on top of a concrete slab - a.k.a a portion of the school parking lot)
Proposed Greenhouse: 14' wide x 10' tall x 16' long (Single door in middle of the 14' side)

I would like to have the entire system inside the greenhouse, but it might be possibly to have an external fish tank. The difficulty with that is that temps will get down to the low 30's F on a regular basis and below freezing is quite common for short periods of time... Another difficulty is that I need this to be a TEACHING space. That means that I need to be able to get at least 10, but preferably 20 students inside this greenhouse at a time.

We will be raising tilapia and basic vegetables / herbs. All produce raised will be donated / sold in order to provide food and monies to local charities. We currently plan to breed our own tilapia inside the school in another system... (Set up at a later date)

Initial questions:
1. Do I need to ask for a bigger greenhouse? With a completed system running, will I be able to have my class inside at the same time?
2. I have estimated about $5000 to build the system from scratch - I do want to use recycled/repurposed materials. But I am not opposed to buying new if needed. I would like to have a system where I can tell my kids to "MacGuyver" a solution based on materials at hand...


So here is my situation... I need your help. All designs will be considered, and all people who collaborate on this with us will be recognized in all of our materials. Thanks in advance for the help that you can give. I am going to xpost this on Practical AP and the BYAP forums to hopefully get a greater audience.

Green Phoenix

badflash
06-02-2010, 07:25 PM
I would build a 20'X20' hoop house. You are going to have legal problems putting 20 students in a space that big. Unless you can provide some significant temporary heat, the tilapia are going to have issues. Heat the water, not the greenhouse.

For your budget, the barrelponics model would appear to be the best. For $5K you can build the hoophouse, and barrelponics setup. Probably 3 or 4.
http://www.fastonline.org/content/view/15/29 is the link

I would use a bell siphon rather than his barrel flush system, but it works all the same.

jackalope
06-02-2010, 10:33 PM
Putting the FT outside is out of the question, considering the temps you mentioned .... putting the barrel-ponics toward the two outer/sloping edges of a hoop house would allow much more room for the students to view and learn on both sides of the center aisle, rather than 1 main FT/GB setup. With the Barrelponics, you could conceivably have about 4 systems, divide the 20 students into 4 groups, and probably get more individuals involved .... otherwise, you will have the less aggressive students taking a back seat and/or not being able to participate! Economy-wise, I think a barrel-ponics system would be much better, although I would also consider the barrel-ponics setup that ernie recommended in another post for the FT's and then some half-barrels for the GBs. If the water is heated to 80f to 85f during the winter, you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping the GH warm with 20 bodies in there ;)

GreenPhoenix
06-03-2010, 01:27 AM
Let me clarify -- the cost for the greenhouse is not included in my $5000 budget for the system. That amount is specifically for the AP system itself. AND, I was told that if that amount is not sufficient - then I should increase the amount.

The students will not be outside during winter for any extended amount of time, so other than them wearing jackets to and from the building - I don't think that heating will be an issue.

Also in terms of size and capacity issues -- what size greenhouse do you think would be necessary for me to house an AP system AND ~20 people?

Green Phoenix

JCO
06-03-2010, 05:55 AM
The larger the system, the less likely of problems with the veggies and fish. Small systems require constant monitoring because the least amount of change in the number of veggies (and size) and like wise with the fish, the chemistry of the system will change drastically.

If you are going to make this a real project that will show the actual potential of aquaponics, I would suggest you make the green house as large as they will allow you space for. Working with a small system will look more like something to do for a hobby producing only small amounts of this or that veggie and fish while a large system would actually show that you are teaching technology that could feed a starving nation.

What kind of activities will the 20 students be expected/required to perform while in the greenhouse? Are you going to be trying to grow large or small amounts of various veggies? Will you be holding the actual class in the greenhouse with student seating and erasable board. These are all question that need to be answered before you can figure size for the greenhouse.

Don't forget that during the winter, it will get quite cool in the greenhouse and the summers will require considerable ventilation to keep the students from soaking their clothing with perspiration. Too bad I'm not closer, I would love to help you set it all up and get it running. :mrgreen:

swamp creek farms
06-03-2010, 06:38 AM
Another thing that you might want to think about is making a germinating spot in the greenhouse.

The local schools here propagate tomato and peppers and other local plants that are easily grown and sell the plants to the public for $1 or so.

We have an agriculture program here at our local high school, with a greenhouse they do this in. They raise money to supply their own funding for what they are learning.

Keeps the school from cutting the program. Which they do quite often here.

Maybe not what your into, but just an idea.

mpugh5@aol.com
06-03-2010, 09:44 AM
Hello fella's , i agree with much that has been said here, i would suggest the green house have a small head house for germination and the heat source. that way the space in the green house will be just for the aquaponics operation. Depending on what you will use for heat, say maybe a 300 btu pool heater you can run coils under grow beds and through the fish tank, have the best of two worlds. :idea:

JCO
06-03-2010, 01:23 PM
One other thing I forgot to mention..even though this is a project for the school, you...the custodian of said project...will have to be on hand seven days a week to over see its operation. Unlike a regular class room, you can't turn the lights off and close the door on Friday or Holidays and forget school until time to return. A project of this size will require attention daily. :mrgreen:

davidstcldfl
06-03-2010, 03:03 PM
JCO made a good point.
Another thing along that lines.....power shortages. If you have a 'serious systyem' going, you'll need some kind of back up.... preferably an 'auto' system....maybe 12 volt with a transformer/inverter, to run an air pump for the fish. Maybe even a small generator with auto start to run everything !

Some air pumps have the built in ability to switch to a battery.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories ... %20pumps/9 (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1020/Automatic-Backup-Air-Pump/air%20pumps/9)

badflash
06-03-2010, 05:45 PM
You can use a computer battery backup to run airpumps for quite a while. There are also systems that can call your cell phone based on temperature, water levels, etc.

GreenPhoenix
06-04-2010, 01:03 PM
Agreed on all points. I do completely understand that this will need to be checked on daily and that person will most likely have to be me. I also understand the ramifications on my life as a result... I knew that going in to this project.

In regards to the battery back up and such -- they are needed and I am not going to argue with the utility. But as I originally said -- can you all help me DESIGN this system? I have given you the parameters that I am currently working under, if they need to be changed, then I can try to make changes. However, if we operate under the assumption that I am going to place this system inside of a 14x16x10 greenhouse, can I please ask for some assistance in designing a system that will maximize the usable space while allowing me to retain a space for teaching?

I am currently working on a CHOP system that will encompass at least two tiers of growbeds in order to maximize my usable space. I will get the design into Google Sketch-Up as soon as I can...

GreenPhoenix

badflash
06-04-2010, 04:16 PM
I already posted the link for the barrelponics system. It is a perfect beginners system and is cheap and scalable. Take baby steps before you start running. The kids and Admin will love it too as it is made mostly from recycled material and can be used in 3rd world countries.

Give it a serious look.
[video:1y5uwvwe]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwMEulvJ2Ps [/video:1y5uwvwe]

JCO
06-21-2010, 10:42 AM
Just checking on Arizona to see how the school project was coming...anything up and running yet? :mrgreen:

Flying Z
12-29-2010, 09:14 PM
I think you need to consider a much larger greenhouse than 14x16. When school starts back up, have 20 students stand in an area arms length apart and see how much space just the students take up. I think you need at least 20x40. West Wood high school in Mesa AZ has/had quite a aquaponics program. Maybe you can get with them and check it out. ( i assume you are in phoenix az). Anyway, good luck with it, hope it works out.

davidstcldfl
12-30-2010, 07:49 AM
Hi Flying Z......good point about the area needed.
Reading 'elsewhere'....she has it inside the classroom. She's in TX, if I remeber correctly(?)

Hotrodmike
12-30-2010, 11:39 AM
Hi Flying Z......good point about the area needed.
Reading 'elsewhere'....she has it inside the classroom. She's in TX, if I remeber correctly(?)

Where did you get the SHE idea ? Adam is a funny girls name :lol: .You did get the Texas right though
Mike

davidstcldfl
12-30-2010, 02:06 PM
:lol: ....I don't think GreenPhoenix ID 'herself' as Adam here at DIY (?) That'll teach 'her' to be more specific in the introductions.... :P
Sorry about that GP....it's difficult to remeber everyone, especially when your reading 'elsewhere'

The one forum, 'down under' has the little gender symbol near the names....I like that, it helps.

Mike, you must of picked that up reading 'elsewhere' too.... :D

I thought we did have a lady school teacher here one time asking for help ...?

Hotrodmike
12-30-2010, 08:48 PM
David
You Forumholic :lol: :mrgreen:
Hmm I dont think I am on any forums that have sex symbols .
Dont you know all the guys in Florida ? Us Texans stick together no matter where we gather :D
Have A kind Day
Mike

davidstcldfl
12-31-2010, 02:08 AM
Hi, My name is Dave and I'm an AP forum addict.... :lol:

They have the gender ID at the 'other' forum 'down under' Mike.

GreenPhoenix
01-09-2011, 03:06 PM
Haha... yeah, I guess that I need to check in on this forum more often... I haven't been here in a while, and I come back to find out I have been re-assigned as a woman... Wow, talk about having some issues!

In response to what people are wondering about how things are going with my system at school - well the short version is that they are no longer willing to really entertain the idea of developing a program, so I can not expect any funding from them. Now I still have my modified barrelponic system, and (through a lucky contact) we will be adding approximately 75 Rainbow Trout into that system in about a week.... So hopefully, we can get some good growth and then be able to interest some parents in the program and get some funding that way.

In other news, I have gotten engaged and am planning to move into her house on the edge of Dallas. That means that I will be in the country and will be able to actually set up a large scale system and potentially even begin to do limited commercial operations. I say limited because I have decided that what my area really needs is an agency similar to what Will Allen is doing with Growing Power up in Wisconsin. So I want to work toward that goal -- creating and running an agency in the DFW area that will work to teach the general public about AP, to help families and individuals become more self-sufficient in their food production and also to provide good organic food at an affordable cost to low-income families in the area.

Anyone want to help me in that quest? I could certainly use all the help I could get!

Green Phoenix

Biggles1212
01-16-2011, 05:52 AM
Hi GreenPhoenix

All the best for the future and with your projects. I'm very much still learning all the tricks of the trade with sustainable living. Where we stay it's becoming a survival tactic throughout the country it seems. Our government is bent on destabilizing the farming industry and the result has been higher food prices and loss of farmers to other countries.

What I have found is that the more interdependent your sustainable living system is, the stronger it becomes. Mixing Aquaponics with raised grow beds, chickens, rabbits, composting etc etc, really make a difference. Good economics is essential too. People thought I was nuts hauling huge piles of horse manure to my house in my spare time. I've now got over 9m3 of composting bins. But when I start seedlings, I've got more than enough compost. Take the time to sit outside and watch nature and copy it.

If your future wife is in on the deal, that's awesome. My wife and I share researching and learning now. The end result is we are growing from strength to strength faster. Team work really helps.

rfeiller
01-16-2011, 10:11 AM
the best in your future plans and marriage, tx is a great place to do what you want to do, it is still under the "land of the free" concept and not over regulated like some areas.