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mommyhen42
02-21-2009, 09:59 PM
I have 2 different types of Riverbed systems I am currently using one uses pvc downspout as channels for the nutrient rich water to flow through, the other one uses a flat shallow pan filled with gravel and a higher inlet than the outlet, this way the water must flow accross the riverbed and out the tubing at the other end, and the entire grow bed gets wet. My question is I am working on an outdoor riverbed type system where I plan on having a smallish pond (less than 800 gal) feed 2 riverbeds that will be used as grow beds. Each Riverbed will be aprox 10 ft long, 3 ft wide and betweem 6-10 inches deep. The water will be pumped to the back of the riverbeds and will waterfall back into the pond. I figure I can grow corn, peppers, tomatoes, ect in the riverbeds during the summer and lettuces in the winter months. Has anyone done this, does it seem feasable???

Sheryl
Riverside California

badflash
02-22-2009, 10:34 AM
Most of the plants you mention don't do well if their roots are entirely under water. That is why most folks I've seen use a flood and drain system. They use bell siphons that allow the water level to come up about 1" below the top of the gravel, then rapidly drain to near the bottom of the gravel. The beds I've seen normally use beds about 1' deep. Lettuse doesn't mind being wet, but most of the others need to get some air to their roots.

jackalope
02-22-2009, 07:47 PM
Riverbed System .... cool idea mommyhen42, that sounds like it would be really nice .... that wouldn't work here in Montana though, if you want to put ANY fish outside (including Goldies and Koi), you have to get a permit :( {HELP!! I'm surrounded by Socialists!!!} :lol: :lol:

mommyhen42
02-23-2009, 11:18 PM
OMG... Youv'e got to be kidding right??? :o
That is so hard to believe that they are so hard.... Nosed???
totally Unreal... and I thought things were crazy here in Riverside, CA!!!
:shock: :shock: :shock:


Riverbed System .... cool idea mommyhen42, that sounds like it would be really nice .... that wouldn't work here in Montana though, if you want to put ANY fish outside (including Goldies and Koi), you have to get a permit :( {HELP!! I'm surrounded by Socialists!!!} :lol: :lol:

mommyhen42
02-23-2009, 11:23 PM
The roots won't be totally submerged, the riverbed will be a misnomer of sorts as the waterflow will be all below gravel by about 2 inches. This will give the roots the opertunity to reach down to the water to tap what they want.

Last year I did an experiment with tomatoes and they were quite happy in that sort of system, and actually died off when transfered into a standard flood and drain afterwards. I was told that since they developed "water roots" they couldnt tolerate being dry since the aproprate amount of "air roots" did not form and sustain the plant... Not sure really, just what I was told was the reason for them not surviving the transplant.

I actually thought of incorporating auto siphons in the system but figured that the dimensions wouldnt work well unless I decided to cordon it off into sections... still not an unreasonable idea since I could hide the individual grow beds with the gravel.... hmm... :?:

An idea worth considering... and totally do-able

Sheryl in Riverside, CA

badflash
02-24-2009, 06:37 AM
That is good to know about your tomatoes. I don't have growbeds yet, so no fist hand experience. Keep us up to date on what you've done & seen so far about what works & what doesn't.

Ironfish has be inspired. I'll be collecting barrels!

JeffW
03-03-2009, 09:22 PM
I did that river bed in an area the size of a large door way and it works. The gravel was no more than 1 inch deep. The water flowed down slow and the tomatoes did good as did hot peppers,cucumber and strawberries. lettuce does good this way as predicted.

The idea was to use fish then I killed them by accident so I ran it using compost tea and that helped but since this was more or less a "hydroponic" system the UREA was the wrong type and all got out of wack which slowed it all down.

I know what mistakes I made last year so this year I would do it better and the first thing I would do is make it no less than 4 inches deep simply because the plants had a hard time standing up :shock: With tomatoes on them they wanted to fall over being the stem had not stability. This was my fault I slacked up filling the bed and got lazy. It was based on a shall river bed flowing with a constant trickle of water down and "returning" to main tank.

I have a you tube video of the setup if you want to see it.

mommyhen42
03-03-2009, 10:34 PM
I would love to see the system. I had my first one in a shallow 2x2 tray and it did wonderfully, Since it was indoors (well in an aviary anyway) I had a screen wall that I just tied it up to to prevent it from falling over due to the shallow tray... Suprising how large the root system was, took up almost the entire bottom of the tray. The lettuces seem to grow the fastest in this system as do strawberries.

looking forward to seeing what you did

Stay safe
Sheryl

JeffW
03-04-2009, 02:57 PM
I got this idea from this web site here http://www.webofcreation.org/BuildingGrounds/aqua/Chap3.html

Yep I made mistakes in 2008 and this was my first time messing with this idea so forgive me if it is not 100% flawless. However with that said I learned so much just attempting :D

Also as you said the roots still grow like crazy!
Heck when season ended I could hardly get the plants to let go of the plastic :shock: and
as far as rocks I gave up trying to separate them when I tore this all down. They are now
part of the drive way :lol:

I said Basil in first video but it was BEETS not BASIL, I got seeds mixed up..what a mess.

I buried a 55 gallon drum part way in the soil for fish, it was HOT in there.
The temp in the green house got so high it would heat up the water as it flowed and this
was one of the things I learned quickly that heat will build fast and cause allot of problems if you do not plan ahead and have a vent system.
It reached 100/F easy at 8 feet level above ground level and this was because my vents were not capable..I blew it when it came to a good venting system :(

part 1 [video:21h0ribn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzi1FYZk8Is[/video:21h0ribn]
part 2 [video:21h0ribn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJcbB6HoTrk[/video:21h0ribn]

This was another issue I had..not with the river bed but with the hydroponics
that were also running in the green house over by north side wall.
HEAT:
On the side of the green house I had a large Ebb and Flow running and the tank was also buried to keep it cool. However because I mounted the 1" PVC system about 3 feet up from ground what happens is the ambient air temp would heat up the PVC and then the water nutrient solution when it was flooded and that almost killed the roots of each plant. I could not understand what was wrong since last year I did this and it worked. Found out that the solution must not be too warm or the plant can not deal with it "aspiration" was maxed out and the plants can only deal with so much stress. Now I know that the piping can get warm if it is long and extended such as mine was almost 15 feet long and the PVC pipe absorbed all that ambient air "heat" then since they are thin wall pvc pipes they exchange the heat very easy to the solution as it was being pumped into the hydroponic system.

jackalope
03-04-2009, 09:52 PM
When I click on Play for "Part 2" it goes black and says "Embedding disabled by request." Is your link broken?

mommyhen42
03-04-2009, 11:33 PM
Hello JeffW
This is too funny, my first riverbed system was actually loosly designed after yours!
The 2 trays are about 3 inches deep that I used and 2x2ft square!I staggered the inlet and the outlet so that I could get the flow correct. I moved it outside but the table I had it on began to sag with the weight so currently it is taken down, but I do plan on getting it going again this spring as it did so well for me. Just not sure where.
You have peas in yours, how did they end up doing??? I put peas in my eb and flow but they dont do well, but I am currently having a big aphid problem right now in the little greenhouse. We are starting to see lady bugs so every time I find one I put it in there, I saw a ladybug nymph on one of my lettuces munching away so it is good to know that there is at least one of them in there....
I bought this package that was supposed to be a pheramone that repels aphids but I think it is working as an aphrodesiac!!!
Sorry for my spelling...
I also had white fly get started in there but I think I got the buggers with a little tanglefoot and some yellow paper...
Anyone have any other ideas to get rid of aphids that wont kill my fish???
I am putting together a barrel unit using 2 barrels and autosiphons instead of the flusher one added. So far I have one half put up and have to build the frame for the other half, just not up to it right now. So it will have to wait. But at least the half that is up is planted. I have the fishtank barrel on it's side, do you think it will do better if I bury it??? I was just thinking of putting some plywood around it to keep the sun off...and trailing some plants over the sides to give added shade.
Sheryl

badflash
03-05-2009, 06:33 AM
Lots of natural controls. Dusting with diatomaceous earth where they hide is pretty effective. Use a dust mask, but this is not toxic, just a lung irritant. This is what you put in pool filters.

Lace wings and ladybugs are great too if you have a greenhouse.

mommyhen42
03-05-2009, 10:21 AM
Where can I find the Diotomatious earth? Will it harm the fish's gills when the autosiphons pull some back into the tank?
It is still too early in the year to get the ladybugs and lacewings, I have been checking at my local garden centers but they tell me probally not till April... sigh
We have mantids here naturally but it is still too early for them.
I am guessing due to the numbers of mantids and lacewings I see every spring and summer that I will not need to buy those... perhaps some will take up residence over the winter next year?

badflash
03-05-2009, 11:34 AM
Any pool store carries DE. I have a DE filter for cleanup of my aquariums. It polishes the water, but clogs quickly. I use it for fine particulate. I've never seen a negative effect. It is a widely accepted organic control.

Another idea might be geckos. You can get house geckos cheaply, especially in quantity. I see them all the time in lizzard shows for $5 each in single quantities.

JeffW
03-05-2009, 12:42 PM
On my last PART 2 video I just fixed the error, I was having problems
with some you tube users using my videos for self promotion on their own
sites so I disabled embedding but I changed that just now :)

Sheryl I think your barrel with shaded wood will work fine because digging a hole
was not good for the back let me tell ya. As long as sun shine is deflected it helps ;)
And yes pea's did great matter a fact they took off like wild fire.

APHIDS UHG!! they attacked me last year too and whipped my butt good.
I had 100 pound pumpkins doing so well and then the aphids came and all hell broke
loose. We lost the battle to them and I tried every non chemical trick in the book.
After they finished off pumpkins they went after the cuc's. First time in I ever had them in
my garden, year before that was golden Japanese beetles and every afternoon about 5PM
the flew in like attack on pearl harbor, they landed on my pole beans and ate them as fast
as they could. Just to make me really disgusted they had sex while they did it..grrrr.!!
That was an insult and so when I saw them in action I had the pleasure of smashing
them in action 8-)

SPEAKING OF PEA (pee)
hey peeps anyone hear about pee?
I hear people pee in their systems now so they don't have to use gold fish because
it has ammonia in it, I am not sure but seems interesting
.....omg I gotta take a leak be right back :lol:

badflash
03-05-2009, 06:52 PM
Best not to. This is a good way to spread human disease around. Many diseases can be spread through urine. Few pass from one species to another, so animal urine would be OK. Fertilizing with chicken manure is great stuff, used sparingly.

mommyhen42
03-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Another idea might be geckos. You can get house geckos cheaply, especially in quantity. I see them all the time in lizzard shows for $5 each in single quantities.

I like that idea actually, but the problem here is that they are not native... Since I have done reptile rescue for 20 years I can not in all conciense(SP) release a non native species into the greenhouse as I do open the doors during the day and the vents also auto-open when the inside temp reaches 72. This would allow for the animals to escape.
I do however often put our fence swifts in there whenever I manage to catch one... I know they eat insects, just not sure about aphids???

thanks about the DM I have a pool store just down the street, will have to check with them.

Sheryl

mommyhen42
03-05-2009, 09:09 PM
JeffW
I just made some self watering pots after the style of the water farm which use the air lift pump to deliver water to the plants...
My question is If I have my 55 gal barrel laying on it's side and the riverbed grow table is slightly above that, do you think the depth is enough to run the air lift pump effectively???

I currently have the barrel set up with another barrel cut in half and so far only one of the 2 halves are up and on a stand...
I am thinking of placing a table to the side of that and buld your riverbed there. I would have to make it so that it drains into a pvc pipe at the far end and have that pipe drain back into the barrel...

Do you think that is do-able or should I use a water pump instead?
I like the idea of the lower wattage air pump but am not sure I have enough depth to get the height I would need... HMM
Sheryl

badflash
03-06-2009, 06:51 AM
Have you looked into guyser pumps, rather than air lift? Air lift is good for only a couple of inches, but is great for circulating water. Guyser pumps can move low volumes 10 feet up or more.

mommyhen42
03-06-2009, 10:57 AM
yes I have but they waste alot of water so since water conservation is one point I need to keep, I stopped looking at them.
Since the lift required would only be 1 ir 2 inches plus the height of the bed, I wondered if they may work.

Just curious, could have been a way to save on electricity, but if I need water pumps, I need water pumps.

I will be building a windmil over the next few weeks to augment my 75 watt solar array, still in the learning phase there.

looking at alternatives you know...

Sheryl

badflash
03-06-2009, 03:33 PM
They don't waste water if you set them up correctly. So work off flowing water, others work off air directly. The ones that run on air work sort of like a percolator.

badflash
03-06-2009, 08:30 PM
http://www.geyserpump.com/principle.htm

JeffW
03-07-2009, 06:01 PM
I was reaching over 3 feet with air lift pump myself, check out video I have with that
55 gallon drum and river bed style dohicky :lol: that was an air lift pump and it is only
a small aquarium air pump. it works best when you put some type of air stone on it.

Last night I discovered another neat air lift setup for making a flow of oxygenated water
go across the surface of an aquarium and it works so well it creates a small surface
current that the fish loved and were swimming against :o

Why the air lift works best with a bunch of small bubbles rather than bigger ones
(Air line with no stone) is because small air bubbles are bombarding the displacment
of the water more than big bubbles. The other important aspect is that you need the
proper size tube or pipe to go along with the amount of air you are pumping into it.

Air lift is simply all about the "displacement" of water which forces it to ride up with all
the air bubbles. My goal in hydroponics and aquaponics is to try and consume the lowest
amount of energy (burning fossil fuels) to produce food and keep fish alive. So air lift is a
great way to move water. No air lift can not compete with other systems like pumps however
with that said., I am a big fan of air lift because I am also thinking "solar powered".
Already I have tested a DC powered air pump using it for "air lift" and it worked great.

Problems..yes there will be with solar because it has not been used that much. We have
been plugged in way too long and yes idea's are coming along but some of the things we
have been doing all these years such as using pumps and power has dominated projects.
Well for me I am always looking for "another way" to do it and this is why I try things even
before they are popular. My compost screening device is DC powered by the way and it
runs off a riding lawn mowers battery or if I choose it will run from a solar recharged
"deep cycle battery" the type used for "electric trolling motor" in fishing boats.

2 years ago I built a home made wind generator and it out out 6 VDC with about 12 knots
of wind. It blew apart in a tornado but hey life goes on. I made that out of a DC motor too
and if you take a DC motor and spin it it will produce DC output. I used diodes to control
the path of current flow and it charged a battery, neighbors are entertained trust me.

DC is cool there is so much we can do with DC power. I want my Aquaponic system to
be 100% "off the grid" ....oh yea! 8-)

badflash
03-07-2009, 07:51 PM
The geyser pump is more akin to the hydraulic ram than the air lift pump. If a large amount of air suddenly escapes, the water follows it and gains velocity. If properly channeled it can really jump, up to about 20 feet.

JeffW
03-08-2009, 04:06 PM
Badflash you know I realize I was saying I can make air lift rise 3 feet but you
know what? I forgot that was with a 55 gallon drum almost full so really I was
only getting the 1/2 inch PVC to pump water up that from bottom of the drum.

Make sense?

In other words I had a 1/2 inch PVC with air line in it and that was in the drum
and comes up and then water ran out. But the water was already way up the
PVC to level of what the drum was. Bad flash your right you can not get much
higher than a few inches I guess. Oh well it works if it is setup so you only need
a slight lift then transfer the water down to a slope which comes back much like
what Sheryl was talking about in the river bed system.

badflash
03-08-2009, 04:37 PM
Air lift pumps are great for moving water, not for raising water. For circulation, they can't be beat. If you need lift, you need a different design.

mommyhen42
03-08-2009, 09:27 PM
The gyser pumps I had seen onliine all had a check valve of sorts that would spray water till it reached a certian backpressure then it would close the check valve to pump the water, once the pressure reduced it would again open the check valve and it would spray water till it again reached an adequate back pressure which would then close the valve.

I hadnt seen one like you show in the link, so I will have to do a little more research.

Like JeffW I am trying to get this as low tech as I can in order to reduce the electricity usage.

my 4 flood and drain tubs in the greenhouse work off of timers but I am thinking I may go in there next week and make a mess and turn them into auto-siphons so that I can take away 1 pump and make it continuous. This may slightly raise the electricity usage since they wont be on the timers any more but it may do a better job with the growth rates in those tubs.

In the next couple of weeks I may take down the dutch buckets and put in either flood and drain tubs or build another riverbed pvc system... I am leaning towards another pvc system, as I really like it and the growth rate of the plants in there is phenominal...
besides that I want to plant more strawberries and you cant beat that one for those... I have baby strawberries all over the place.

aquaarche
04-10-2009, 06:27 AM
do riverbed systems need to be narrow?

will a 3 ft by 6ft with a 10 inch gravel growing bed be ok to operate as a riverbed? :|

I figured I would lower the water level slowly as the roots grow. does this sound OK?

JeffW
04-15-2009, 04:55 PM
Do you have access to PVC pipe? What about 3 or 4 inch thin wall PVC?

Any used 55 gallon plastic drums around?
NOTE: drums must have never been used for chemical storage

Check out all the designs that are out there with so many ideas people have come up with the pick the one you have the materials you can build with it and go with that to start out. Maybe you can start by keeping it simple and small then build more later or expand that one you make the first time.

Ideas are all over..here is another one..I think you can skip the oyster shells they mention
http://www.webofcreation.org/BuildingGrounds/aqua/Chap3.html

organicus_rex
05-31-2009, 07:21 AM
JeffW,

Your system seems to be doing well. Do you have any problems with the 1/2 inch PVC trickle/feeder tube clogging?
Where you are located it would seem that having enough warmth would be your biggest challenge. I grew up in Gary, Indiana and have relatives in the Coldwater and Colon, Michigan areas. That big lake keeps you pretty cool while the wind is out of the west or north. What do you do with your fish in the winter?
For your soil bound tomatoes, put a layer of straw about 3 inches deep around the plants. This will retain moisture and your plants will actually have shallow roots like your river bed plants by the end of summer.

http://www.groworganic.com and http://www.gardensalive.com are good sources for plant nutrients and very helpful staff too. Foliar feeding is superior to any other form. Feed early in the morning when the stomata are open to receive nutrients, spray the undersides of the leaves (where the stomata are located) more than the tops and try not to spray so heavy it drips a lot into your river grow beds. Dripping isn't a problem for the soil based plants and once you mulch with straw the minerals will get captured in the straw and feed the roots of the plants. They both carry liquid organic plant foods that can be added to the AP grow beds if needed occasionally.

I don't believe in set schedules for feeding like the labels state. I go according to how my plants react. I've fed them as often as every third day for the first month of summer and then back off to once a week the next month and then only two feedings in the third month. Play it by ear like Andre Segovia did the guitar. The kale family needs a little surfactant added (Cal Ben liquid pure soap, http://www.calbenpuresoap.com) to the solution so it will stick to their leaves but be careful feeding them in the AP grow beds since they will drip the most regardless.

One last question, have you ever read Prof. John Todd's (Woods Hole Institute, Woods Hole, MA) material on marsh system filtration for treating effluent waste? If not, google him and enjoy because his system design is not much different from yours except he uses deeper streams, primarily aquatic plants and plenty of aquatic critters to process the effluent.

Fascinating system you've designed, keep us posted for sure.

PS. Andre Segovia developed classical guitar playing, in his teens & 20's, as we know it today and couldn't read music until he was nearly 70 years old. Rules are guidelines and never set in stone.

chevydog001
09-09-2010, 10:12 PM
Hi guys..New to the forum and have a quick question about your pump...Would a fishtank powerhead be more efficient for use as a water pump...I have used them in fishtanks and you can add a tube onto them to mix oxygen into the system so it would be the only thing needed...The best part is they are cheap and reliable...They are also good for salt and fresh water systems..
Your system looks good...I hope to have 1 up and running soon.
Scott

jackalope
09-09-2010, 10:32 PM
They work good for me once in a while .... I see nothing wrong with using them if it suits your application ..... a pump is a pump is a pump ;)

badflash
09-10-2010, 11:13 AM
They are pretty small in volume and they are not efficient. An air pump and air stone work better for oxygen.


Hi guys..New to the forum and have a quick question about your pump...Would a fishtank powerhead be more efficient for use as a water pump...I have used them in fishtanks and you can add a tube onto them to mix oxygen into the system so it would be the only thing needed...The best part is they are cheap and reliable...They are also good for salt and fresh water systems..
Your system looks good...I hope to have 1 up and running soon.
Scott