PDA

View Full Version : Fish Emulsion



badflash
02-21-2009, 08:51 AM
Probably not the right area, but this is as close as there is right now.

One of the secrets to doing things profitably is not to waste. My grandpa always said about butchering pigs "we use everything but the squeal".

When you fillet a fish, there are always left overs. The guts, bones, head and a little meat. One very profitable way to deal with otherwise smelly waste is to make fish emulsion. The process is pretty simple. Put the left-overs in a plastic barrel or bucket, cover with water, and add enough phosphoric acid to equal about 1-2% of the weight of the fish. The pH is supposed to stay in the 3-4 range. Kept warm the stuff will break down and you'll get oil, fish emulsion and some glop on the bottom.

The fish oil can be put to a variety of uses, including bio diesel if you have enough of it. The emulsion is neutralized with lime, filtered and bottled. It sells for up to $40 a gallon. The glop on the bottom goes into the compost for the worms. Nothing goes to waste.

My big hold up is finding food grade phosphoric acid at a reasonable price in less than tank car quantities. If anyone knows about a source, I'd be grateful.

jackalope
02-22-2009, 01:34 AM
Wow, good info, I learn more every day, Thanks

mpugh5@aol.com
03-23-2009, 05:25 PM
there is some phosphoric acid on ebay, it's located up the road from me in allentown pa. the shipping is outrages and they have no local pick up. badflash if you could look this up tell me if this would be a good buy by comparison to what your aware of. i'll buy it if it's a fair deal due to my desire to process my fish waste. thanks and i'll be standing by to here your response.
thanks michael :geek: 8-) :geek:

wolfracer
03-23-2009, 07:58 PM
Very interesting concept, Keep us informed. Bio diesel is a side interest of mine.

badflash
06-21-2009, 01:07 PM
I found a site that sell phosphoric acid:
http://www.dudadiesel.com/biodiesel_chemicals.php

As it turns out it is used in the production of biodiesel. This place seems to have very reasonable prices. I'll also be buying pumps, valves and heat exchangers here for my WVO diesel experiment.

mpugh5@aol.com
06-21-2009, 08:45 PM
I found a site that sell phosphoric acid:
http://www.dudadiesel.com/biodiesel_chemicals.php

As it turns out it is used in the production of biodiesel. This place seems to have very reasonable prices. I'll also be buying pumps, valves and heat exchangers here for my WVO diesel experiment.

wow, just got up to speed on duda today myself, talk about being on the same page. 8-)

badflash
09-04-2009, 01:34 PM
I have now found why phosphoric acid and not other acids are used to make this stuff. If you use other acids and then neutralize them, you end up with salts that are no good for plants. Muriatic acid gives you regular salt, sulphuric acid give you sulphates. Phosphoric acid gives you phosphate that plants like.

Be sure your container is closed tightly or you get unwanted guests. ewww!

bcotton
05-30-2011, 07:56 PM
I dont mean to bump an old thread but i am reading through the archives and I figured I would update for others who do the same.

The liquid version of "General Hydroponics PH down" is food grade phosphoric acid and can be acquired at your local hydroponics store for about $30 per gallon. However, I havent been able to find the concentration percent of the product.

(My expanded shale had a little something in it that is PH buffering my system at 7.4 so i use this product to bring down my PH a little. I mix it in the sump which goes through the grow beds before getting to the fish tank, the fish do not seem to mind. Mozambique tilapia, bluegill, redear sunfish and channel catfish.)

brian

urbanfarmer
05-31-2011, 10:46 AM
I have now found why phosphoric acid and not other acids are used to make this stuff. If you use other acids and then neutralize them, you end up with salts that are no good for plants. Muriatic acid gives you regular salt, sulphuric acid give you sulphates. Phosphoric acid gives you phosphate that plants like.

Be sure your container is closed tightly or you get unwanted guests. ewww!
I was just about to suggest sulfuric or hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid). The HCl would release the chlorine and that would volatilize into the atmosphere. If you have any doubt, you can always boil the mixture before adding your other compounds that would create salts. When you boil water, the chlorine cannot stay soluble and will undoubtedly volatilize into the atmosphere.

As far s the sulfuric acid forming sulfates, the sulfates should serve as fertilizer just like the phosphates.

Sulfuric acid, battery acid, is very cheap. And as you know, muriatic acid, hydrochloric acid, is also very cheap.

Food grade should really not be an issue for these kinds of chemicals because their so reactive they simply can't be mixed with many substances.

Home Depot $27
Miracle Sealants 128 oz. Fast-Acting Phosphoric Acid Cleaner

Try the pool or hardware stores. They should have it for cheaper than online. You should always check the MSDS, and I can help you look if you want, but again I doubt it will be mixed with anything at higher concentrations because it's so reactive.

EDIT: Found this too: http://compare.ebay.com/like/1703784165 ... r&_lwgsi=y (http://compare.ebay.com/like/170378416544?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y) (it's weaker at 52%, but it's $27.88 free shipping, if this was 85% you would pay $38.84 so it is CHEAPER than the one you mentioned above)

This is 2 gallons of the above with some more savings: http://cgi.ebay.com/Phosphoric-Acid-52- ... %26ps%3D54 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phosphoric-Acid-52-P205-Fertilizer-Grade-2-Gallons-/170379568306?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA% 252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D170378 416544%26ps%3D54)

Local will always be cheaper due to shipping.

cedarswamp
05-31-2011, 12:48 PM
If your going to mess with this stuff, for your own safty please learn everything you can about it first, for instance always add sulfuric acid to water, never water to sulfuric acid.

urbanfarmer
05-31-2011, 02:58 PM
I always assume badflash is super human..., but that is sound advice. That goes for any concentrated acid too. I'm sure he was going to wear goggles, gloves, close toed shoes, pants, and long sleeves, maybe even a lab coat while he was sloshing around these chemicals! :geek:

cedarswamp
05-31-2011, 03:34 PM
I wasn't worried about badflash, I was worried about you. :lol:

urbanfarmer
05-31-2011, 03:41 PM
I wasn't worried about badflash, I was worried about you. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: I see what you did there!

badflash
06-01-2011, 08:51 AM
HCL + NaOH==> H2O+ NaCL. That is salt and won't be released. KOH ends is the KCl. Both end up with ionic chlorides nd are bad for plants.

H2SO4 +NaOH==> H2O +NaSO4. Probably less of an issue, but Sulfuric acid is really nasty stuff. Phosphoric Acid is far safer. Use of Phosphoric Acid also maintains organic certification. I can't say where you would be at with other acids.

urbanfarmer
06-01-2011, 10:06 AM
HCL + NaOH==> H2O+ NaCL. That is salt and won't be released. KOH ends is the KCl. Both end up with ionic chlorides nd are bad for plants.

H2SO4 +NaOH==> H2O +NaSO4. Probably less of an issue, but Sulfuric acid is really nasty stuff. Phosphoric Acid is far safer. Use of Phosphoric Acid also maintains organic certification. I can't say where you would be at with other acids.
Hydrochloric acid also maintains organic certification.

Those are correct in that they are balanced and the right resulting reaction, but that is not what would happen in your situation:

Step 1
HCl + H2O => H3O + Cl-

Step 2
............(Chlorine volatilizes)
H3O (aq) + Cl- (aq) => H3O (aq) <=> H2O (l) + H+ (aq)

Step 3
H3O (aq) + NaOH (aq) => 2H2O (l) + Na+ (aq)

That is what happens if you allow some time before adding the base (neutralizer); the chlorine will volatilize (off gas). As I mentioned, you can also boil the solution to be 100% sure there is none left since chlorine has a 0 solubility in aqueous solutions at 100 C/212 F. Remember, HCl is a strong acid. A strong acid is an acid that ionizes completely in an aqueous solution. Your formula below is only applicable to your situation in the absence of time: HCl + NaOH => H2O+ NaCl

As far as the sulfuric acid, I didn't think it would be an issue either (I thought you would have calcium though). The plants will absorb both elements, and under certain conditions may even absorb large quantities of the sodium (Na).

Do you have to use sodium hydroxide (lye) as your neutralizing agent? I thought you were using lime (Ca(OH)2), which would yield calcium based salts that are common fertilizers...


The fish oil can be put to a variety of uses, including bio diesel if you have enough of it. The emulsion is neutralized with lime...
I'm not at all familiar with the process, but I would imagine the acid and base used only has to do with adjusting the pH and not adding anything BAD into the mix. This would give you a TON of options, in some cases cheaper! I know you want to keep it organic; so, this would limit as well, but not all that much. Does that sound right or...?

BTW, I really think this is a great idea. In fact, I was just telling my friend all about it yesterday (and your squeal quote). Sulfuric acid is very cheap (battery acid) and so is lime (calcium hydroxide, about $1 a pound local, cheaper than lye I believe). I'm sure you will figure it out, but if you want help with brainstorming some chemicals, don't hesitate to ask buddy! :mrgreen:

urbanfarmer
06-01-2011, 10:19 AM
badflash, I forgot to even consider... but, what temperature do you think the mixture you make after adding acid will get to? Will it bake in the sun and maybe get near 100 C/212 F? If so, you really want to consider hydrochloric acid because your chlorine will really just be gone and in no time once it hits those temps (it's instant not counting the time the bubbles take to hit the surface).

Here, I'm posting a graph of what I am talking about:

http://docs.engineeringtoolbox.com/documents/1148/solubility-cl2-water.png

Lastly, I would always send any new substance I am using/selling as a fertilizer to my local extension's soil lab. It usually only costs a few bucks, and you can always have them check for the sodium, chlorine, or anything else you might suspect may not have behaved as theorized given the complex mixture of other organic and inorganic compounds.

badflash
06-02-2011, 07:12 AM
I dissagree with your chemistry. HCL will not produce hydrogen peroxide and free chlorine. The chlorine will not off-gas.

sirtoggle
09-02-2011, 10:48 AM
I was reading online about fish by product and I remembered this thread. and here is what I found online as a howto. Hope it helps anyone.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/orga ... 31662.html (http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/organic/2002080041031662.html)

badflash
09-02-2011, 01:21 PM
If you try making any, be sure to use a fine screen to keep the maggots out. It gets real digusting real fast if you are not careful. Use phosphoric acid, not HCl. The results are much better. Anyone that says otherwise, post your personal results, not something that was trolled in off the internet, published papers are allowed of course.

100C is 212F, why would anyone boil fish guts? Never mind, I withdraw the question.

urbanfarmer
09-02-2011, 04:09 PM
I dissagree with your chemistry. HCL will not produce hydrogen peroxide and free chlorine. The chlorine will not off-gas.
It's 2 water molecules not hydrogen peroxide (2H2O vs. H2O2, respectively). Also, the chlorine may off gas it may react with something else. There's so much stuff in there it's hard to say, but by boiling it there is a high chance it will off gas. Of course you don't have to boil it, but when it sits outside the point is it gets very hot and approaches the same result (please see graph). The heat will either drive a reaction with the chlorine or if no reaction it will definitely off gas. It may also form organic compounds, which translates to a slow release fertilizer for the plants because, as you know, they need (Cl) as well.

Sorry for the late response, I didn't think anyone would bother reading this... oops... :lol: :oops:

badflash
09-03-2011, 09:27 AM
I've tried both UF- try for yourself. The salt stays in solution. It isn't a theory for me. Not hard to say at all. Maggots like both of them.

urbanfarmer
09-03-2011, 03:26 PM
Hm, I'd love to see what and how you did everything and compared the methods! :-) I'm curious how you know if salts, and how much, were in the final solution?

Also, are you using lye/caustic soda/sodium hydroxide (NaOH) as your neutralizing agent or lime (Ca(OH)2) as stated in the first post??? Keeping the sodium out to begin with is probably the best theory of all! :-D

badflash
09-03-2011, 09:01 PM
Try this simple test. Add HCL to water, then react it with some NaOH. Test for salt. See if you smell chlorine.

urbanfarmer
09-09-2011, 07:29 AM
Try this simple test. Add HCL to water, then react it with some NaOH. Test for salt. See if you smell chlorine.
That experiment does not account for the time you let the solution sit being heated by the sun. Regardless, if you're so sure, then just use lime as stated in your original post... No sodium (Na), no problem... or should I say Na problem??? :lol:

badflash
09-11-2011, 08:56 PM
Why don't you post your results?

sarookha
06-25-2015, 09:48 AM
That experiment does not account for the time you let the solution sit being heated by the sun. Regardless, if you're so sure, then just use lime as stated in your original post... No sodium (Na), no problem... or should I say Na problem??? :lol:

Chlorine gas might "off-gas" given time, like in swimming pool water. But when you put HCl in water, you don't get chlorine gas, you get Chlorine ions. The reason HCl, or NaCl for that matter dissociate in water into their ionic components is because water molecules LOVE those electrically charged ions. The chlorine isn't going to get away from the H2O no way no how.