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gigaguy
04-06-2010, 11:42 AM
Hello all. I've been looking at the forums for quite a few weeks now, and I am trying to setup a small aquaponics system. I have a hoophouse I built out of PVC and 6mil plastic. It worked pretty well since our winters here aren't very cold. My setup included 3 12"x9" mixing tubs about 4" deep with pea gravel and a drain back to the fish tank. My fish tank is a 45gal rubbermaid tote. And then a pump to pump the water once an hour to flood the tubs. This was working great for about 3-4 days, and then I guess it got to hot and all my goldfish died.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can keep the fish alive in the heat/cold? Should I put the fish tank in the ground to keep it cooler? Or just get a larger tank? If the fish couldnt make it throguh 80 degree weather, there is no way they will make it through summer. I am trying to get all the kinks worked out on a small system before I go spend alot of money to build something larger.

Thanks in advance.

JCO
04-06-2010, 11:44 AM
Welcome to the show....pull up an easy chair, relax and stay awhile. New voices are always a welcome addition to our family..! Whatever questions you have on you mind, this is the place to get the answers :mrgreen:

davidstcldfl
04-06-2010, 01:20 PM
Hi gigaguy....welcome.... :D

In order to help you, we will be asking lots of questions. I suggest, going to the section of the forum called... Back Yard Systems ...and start your own thread.
Some pictures would be great.

Here's a few questions, just to give you an idea of what we might be asking....Did you test the water...ph, chlorine ,chloramines, water tempt...what were the results ? Do you have any form of aeration in the water? Are you using a sump ?

How hot did the green house get ? Even on an 80 degree day, they can get 'very hot'.

The small tubs, would get hot, very fast due to the small water volume. Warm water holds very little oxygen. Most people, use grow beds 'at least' 12 inches deep.
One of the ladies here, is using the rubber maid 'stock tanks' for her grow beds ( from tractor supply). Some use them for fish tanks.

You said your FT was a rubbermaid tote...I guess you mean like a storage box ? They too are shallow, which would heat fast.
The bigger the system and volume, the more stable.

One thing to really consider is....'what type of fish, would be best for my area of the country ? 'Tilapia are a tropical fish....they need water to be 70 and above. Even in FL, that can be a challenge in winter.

The 'goldies' could of been sick when you bought them. I have heard of this happening to others.

Hope I'm not discouraging you....lot's of variables gigaguy. There's plenty of people here with the experience and knowledge to help.... :)
Looking forward to some pictures and reading more about your system

stucco
04-06-2010, 01:43 PM
Hello all. I've been looking at the forums for quite a few weeks now, and I am trying to setup a small aquaponics system. I have a hoophouse I built out of PVC and 6mil plastic. It worked pretty well since our winters here aren't very cold. My setup included 3 12"x9" mixing tubs about 4" deep with pea gravel and a drain back to the fish tank. My fish tank is a 45gal rubbermaid tote. And then a pump to pump the water once an hour to flood the tubs. This was working great for about 3-4 days, and then I guess it got to hot and all my goldfish died.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can keep the fish alive in the heat/cold? Should I put the fish tank in the ground to keep it cooler? Or just get a larger tank? If the fish couldnt make it throguh 80 degree weather, there is no way they will make it through summer. I am trying to get all the kinks worked out on a small system before I go spend alot of money to build something larger.

Thanks in advance.

Welcome aboard. From the info you gave…I have the following questions…
1. Are the dimensions on your growbeds correct?
2. Is your system cycled?
3. Have you tested the water? Do you use city water and have you treated it?
4. Are you aerating the water?
5. Is your fish tank is direct sunlight?
6. How is the ventilation in the hoophouse?
These may seem like basic questions, but they are sometimes overlooked. Pictures help a lot, so post some pics with your response.

stucco
04-06-2010, 01:46 PM
Now I see that David beat me to the punch...great job ;)

davidstcldfl
04-06-2010, 01:49 PM
Now I see that David beat me to the punch...great job

I learned from 'you'.... :D

JCO
04-06-2010, 02:37 PM
OK fellas...stop patting each other on the back...you're both great and you know it and if you didn't....I'm telling you now :mrgreen:

davidstcldfl
04-06-2010, 03:14 PM
OK fellas...stop patting each other on the back...you're both great and you know it and if you didn't....I'm telling you now

We're just following 'your' lead JCO.... :lol:

jackalope
04-06-2010, 05:11 PM
Welcome to the Forum :!: :!: Glad to have you aboard.

Another thing to consider is the color of the GBs and the FTs .... Black and green are the two colors that absorb the most heat from the sunlight ..... putting the tanks in the ground will help them (in most cases) to be cooler, but it will help more if they are quite a ways down ...... deeper is sometimes better for the GBs too as has been said, I used shallow 5" ones last season, and I think they went anaerobic because of all the rotting roots in the bottom, just not enough growing space for the roots ....... Like the others said, don't be discouraged .... I killed 45 Goldies when starting out, then 200 Guppies, a few crawdads, some Tilapia along the way ..... just keep on keepin on till you get it right, then get the more expensive fish and throw the others in to be the food ..... I raise feeder Guppies for the Tilapia to eat once in a while .... when the Guppy tank gets a few too many, I net out 30 or 40 and feed them to the Tilapia .... it's fun watching them try to escape the Tilapia ..... In one tank, I've got 6 survivors that the Tilapia won't even chase any more ..... I'm hoping they will drop some fry soon for the tilapia to eat - a built-in food source ;).

gigaguy
04-06-2010, 05:34 PM
1. Are the dimensions on your growbeds correct? They were approx, but couldnt be much off.
2. Is your system cycled? Yes, I was pumping the water through the GB's once an hour for 20min..
3. Have you tested the water? Do you use city water and have you treated it? it was a combination 50/50 of rainwater from rain barrels and well water. i did not test it..
4. Are you aerating the water? yes.

5. Is your fish tank is direct sunlight? it was under the GB's but in the greehouse. So indirect sun?.

6. How is the ventilation in the hoophouse? It's about 12'x14' with doors open on both ends. No other ventilation.

Pics:
Growbeds
http://www.erinandroy.com/Other/Aquaponics/1st-Aquaponics/DSCF2612/815003165_dqKQw-M.jpg

Fishtank:
http://www.erinandroy.com/Other/Aquaponics/1st-Aquaponics/DSCF2613/815004519_FkBHA-M.jpg

Everything:
http://www.erinandroy.com/Other/Aquaponics/1st-Aquaponics/DSCF2619/815013193_LqoxV-M.jpg

I forgot to take a pic of everything assembled. But the growbeds were above the FT and drained into the FT. There were PVC with holes driled in them as the drains and the GB's and FT.

I'm guessing the dark colors didn't help much :oops: . Also the temp in the greenhouse that 80F day was somewhere in the 90's.

Thanks.

davidstcldfl
04-07-2010, 05:36 AM
Hi Gigaguy.
I'm using the larger mixing tubs as my GB's. I'm not doing flood and drain though. I covered mine with shade cloth, to help keep down the algae. I'm not sure if it will help keep the temp's down. You can see in the pict, that it's black. I may try to find something white....fabric of some kind...?
http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad157/davidstcldfl/addedshadecloth.jpg

My 'homemade' bulkhead fittings are made from 'electrical' (gray) pvc fittings. The female and male adapters will go together, because the threads are 'staright'. The plumbing (white) pvc have tapered threads. The plumbing pipe will fit in the electrical fittings.

I think your green house may get too hot, even with both doors open (?) A solar powered attic exhaust fan, from one of the DIY big box stores, would be sweet.

When Stucco asked if your system was 'cycled'....I think he 'may of' meant ....Has the water gone through the natural process of building up the bacteria and nutrients...and is it balanced (?) PH level...nitrate levels...nitrite levels...ammonia levels...?
A nice 'fresh water' test kit is a 'must'.

Check out the first few pages of urbanrunoff's thread.....you'll see they are talikng about 'cycling' of his water. Here's the link.....
Urban's system (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?248-urban-s-system)


In the picture of your blue FT, the outlet is towards the bottom. Is this the height of your water level ?

gigaguy
04-07-2010, 10:20 AM
I think your green house may get too hot, even with both doors open (?) A solar powered attic exhaust fan, from one of the DIY big box stores, would be sweet.?When I built the hoop house, I put a "opening" that you could call a door on both sides in anticipation that it would be HOT in the summer. I solar exhaust fan is a good idea though.


When Stucco asked if your system was 'cycled'....I think he 'may of' meant ....Has the water gone through the natural process of building up the bacteria and nutrients...and is it balanced (?) PH level...nitrate levels...nitrite levels...ammonia levels...? I had cycled it for a few days before adding the fish.


A nice 'fresh water' test kit is a 'must'..? Just picked one up that mesaures pH, Amonia, Nitrite, & Nitrate


In the picture of your blue FT, the outlet is towards the bottom. Is this the height of your water level ?No the water level was about 1" below the top of that blue tub prior to pumping into the GB's. But, even when the GB's were full of water, the FT was still about 1/3 full.

So for my next attempt should I put the tub in the ground a few inches? Or get a different color?

My wife suggeted I put in a pond just outside the greenhouse, but how would I pump out the water then? Use a sump pump, submerged pump, or pond pump? I was worried the pond pump would filter out the nitrates somehow. I guess that will be what I will move up to though. I should get the "cheap" option working first.

jackalope
04-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Just one more comment ..... kinda off the FT/GB subject, keep in mind that there is a chemical interaction between the PVC pipe and the construction plastic sheeting Clik ;) (http://westsidegardener.com/howto/hoophouse_faq.html) so the Plastic cover may not last more than one season ..... If you use some type of non-plastic fabric tape to wrap the PVC tubing, the cover will sometimes last 3 or 4 years from what I've been reading ;).

gigaguy
04-07-2010, 11:01 AM
Just one more comment ..... kinda off the FT/GB subject, keep in mind that there is a chemical interaction between the PVC pipe and the construction plastic sheeting Clik ;) (http://westsidegardener.com/howto/hoophouse_faq.html) so the Plastic cover may not last more than one season ..... If you use some type of non-plastic fabric tape to wrap the PVC tubing, the cover will sometimes last 3 or 4 years from what I've been reading ;).

Yea. From what I read though it only happens once. So you first plastic will last maybe a year or two, but after the PVC has "reacted" the new plastic lasts longer. This was also a temporary thing to see how it worked. And it didnt keep my plants safe from frost all winter, allowed my to start seeds earlier, and is now working for propagations, oh and aquaponics once I get it going.

But I've also read on site that say "All types of PVC are now formulated to resist UV degradation".

So who knows. Either way I was expecting it. My other issue is heating it in winter. I wonder if I will kill the goldies with the cold?

Thanks for the heads up though.

JCO
04-07-2010, 11:59 AM
The only way you can kill a gold fish with cold temperatures is if the water freezes solid from the surface all the way to the bottom of the container and then they still might survive :o

Goldfish are very tough and can withstand very high temperatures if you have enough oxygen in the water. Oxygen is the key to hot weather survival for all fish.

I have raised goldfish and Koi outdoors in kiddie pools and have ice 1 - 2 inches thick on the surface and still see them swimming around under the ice. Fish in general eat very little to nothing when the water temperature drops.

I would say your major problem is not enough FT water volume for the volume of the GBs. You will have to increase the FT volume or find some way of guaranteeing a sufficient amount of oxygen in the water that is left in the FT when the GBs are being filled. :mrgreen:

davidstcldfl
04-07-2010, 12:21 PM
Glad to hear you got a test kit. That's going to help a lot.

You might try this gigaguy......(hope the drawing will help this to make sense)
Get another large tub....use it for a sump tank. Bury it in the ground ( a few inches sticking up). You can have a pump actually 'in' the sump or... pump 'from' the sump....your choice.
You will be pumping 'clean' water from the sump... to the FT. The fish tank will overflow, through the slo-drain....into the (3) grow beds. The GB's, will then drain the water back to the sump.
This will give you more water to work with....slower to heat in the summer. The fish will be happier because their water level will remain 'constant' in the fist tank. Hopefully, more oxygen too.

Look at the picture of the slo-drain.....should make sense. Water naturally seeks it's own heighth. As you pump 'more' water into the fish tank, the water will flow 'up' the pipe and exit the tank. The reason the slo-drain goes to the bottom, is to help pick up 'solids' (fish pooh) and carry them to the GB's.
People add red wigglers to the GB's to help break down the 'solids'.

Add some kind of insulation around your fish tank (styrofoam) and the GB's too, in order to regulate your temps.

Here's a 'hand' drawing... :roll: ...hope it gives you an idea.
I only drew 1 grow bed, I know you have more, was easier to draw. You may need to put some kind of blocks under your grow beds, IF, you need some heighth for the drain pipe to get to the sump.

This type of a set up is called..CHIFT PIST...Constant Heighth In Fish Tank....Pump In Sump Tank
http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad157/davidstcldfl/CHIFTPIST.jpg

gigaguy
04-07-2010, 01:13 PM
Look at the picture of the slo-drain.....should make sense. Water naturally seeks it's own heighth. As you pump 'more' water into the fish tank, the water will flow 'up' the pipe and exit the tank. The reason the slo-drain goes to the bottom, is to help pick up 'solids' (fish pooh) and carry them to the GB's.
People add red wigglers to the GB's to help break down the 'solids'.

Just curious, but wouldnt this mean that the pump is almost always ON?

davidstcldfl
04-07-2010, 02:44 PM
Hi gigaguy.
Once your pump shuts off (by your timer)....the fish tank won't 'overflow' anymore, till the pump turns on again.
The FT water level will be at the height, of where your pvc goes through the side of the tank.

In the drawing....I drew the water level , in the FT, at the heighth of the 'pvc tee' and the bulkhead fitting. That's where it should 'normally' be.
The water in the FT, should remain the same. The water in the FT 'might go up some', when the pump is on. That will depend on the actual flow of the pump.

Speaking of the 'tee'....make sure you keep the 'top' of it open. You don't want it to form a 'siphon' and drain the tank (when the pump is off) In the picture, I drew the top of the tee, above the top of the tank...and it's 'open'



The sump's water level will be going up and down, a lot.


Hope this helps... :)

gigaguy
04-07-2010, 05:51 PM
Hi gigaguy.
Once your pump shuts off (by your timer)....the fish tank won't 'overflow' anymore, till the pump turns on again.
The FT water level will be at the height, of where your pvc goes through the side of the tank.

In the drawing....I drew the water level , in the FT, at the heighth of the 'pvc tee' and the bulkhead fitting. That's where it should 'normally' be.
The water in the FT, should remain the same. The water in the FT 'might go up some', when the pump is on. That will depend on the actual flow of the pump.

Speaking of the 'tee'....make sure you keep the 'top' of it open. You don't want it to form a 'siphon' and drain the tank (when the pump is off) In the picture, I drew the top of the tee, above the top of the tank...and it's 'open'

The sump's water level will be going up and down, a lot.
Hope this helps... :)

Thanks, you all have been a huge help. just a few more questions.

1. Would two 55 gal drums be enough for the sump tank and FT? Or can I just go with two of the rubrmaid totes? With the sump tank burried.
2. I would need to buy a new pump since mine is not submerisble. Would 330gph, 150" lift, .06hp, 1/2" output pond pump be enough? I do have a small pond pump I can use, but I dont know the specs, and it's only got maybe a 1/4" output connection.
This is the small one I have, what do you think?
http://www.erinandroy.com/Other/Aquaponics/1st-Aquaponics/DSCF2758/830630494_WyArg-S.jpg
http://www.erinandroy.com/Other/Aquaponics/1st-Aquaponics/DSCF2760/830631817_pPGyn-S.jpg

3. Can I use flexible plastic tubing instead of PVC in some places? Should there be anything special about it?
4. My GB overflows seemed to wor fine with my od setup, but just want to run it by you all. It's 3/4" PVC with holes drilled in it and a 90 degree elbow and then a 2-3" piece of PVC to the max water height of the GB.

My GB's (They were covered a little better with gravel. I ulled them up to get a pic):
http://www.erinandroy.com/Other/Aquaponics/1st-Aquaponics/DSCF2763/830633156_Tskwi-S.jpg
http://www.erinandroy.com/Other/Aquaponics/1st-Aquaponics/DSCF2764/830634307_fG3nQ-S-1.jpg


Thanks again.

urbanrunoff
04-07-2010, 08:31 PM
i doubt it was the heat that killed the fish.
when i had an ICH outbreak, i heated the tank above 80 for 2 months and all goldfish survived.
My goldfish can handle abuse. When i put them into their new system they went from 80 to 65 and survived that too. I think i should rent these super fish as cycle guerrillas and sytem testers. :lol:

davidstcldfl
04-08-2010, 02:05 AM
1. Would two 55 gal drums be enough for the sump tank and FT?
A drum for your sump would be fine. Just make sure it is clean/safe for the fish.
-advantage...it's sides would be stronger, in regards to being buried
-disadvantage....the depth...now you'll have more 'head' for the pump to deal with.
The sump needs to hold more water then the GB's combined.

Fish tank....you 'could' use a 55 gal drum. The height would seem awkward to me. Plus, now your air pump needs to be able to pump deeper


I would need to buy a new pump since mine is not submersible.
Is it the kind that has a suction side and a discharge side....like a swimming pool pump has....? Run the suction line to the bottom of the sump.

.
Would 330gph, 150" lift, .06hp, 1/2" output pond pump be enough?
It looks like it 'might' work. If you put a drum in the ground, plan on keeping your FT as low as possible. Keep the 'head' as short as you can.
When buying a pump, figure how much water you want to move. Figure out what the 'head'/height you need. Add a little to that for resistance of flow in the pipe. Now, you need to find a 'performance curve chart' and see if the pump will meet your needs.
Here's an example...
http://www.aquaticeco.com/images/static ... es/MD2.gif (http://www.aquaticeco.com/images/static/pump-curves/MD2.gif)

Also, look to see the wattage of the pump. In the long run, it would be better to spend a little more, on a more efficient pump.


3. Can I use flexible plastic tubing instead of PVC in some places? Should there be anything special about it?
If you use clear tube, and have water going through it....it will turn green. After your system gets established....all your pipe will have algae growing in them. It's best to slightly oversize the pipe .


It's 3/4" PVC with holes drilled in it and a 90 degree elbow and then a 2-3" piece of PVC to the max water height of the GB.

Most people do not let the top of the gravel get wet. It 'will' start to grow algae

davidstcldfl
04-08-2010, 03:53 AM
[

My goldfish can handle abuse. When i put them into their new system they went from 80 to 65 and survived that too. I think i should rent these super fish as cycle guerrillas and sytem testers. :lol:

You have to make, some 'camo' outfits for them..... :lol:

Maybe gigaguy, bought fish that were already sick....?

gigaguy
04-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Is it the kind that has a suction side and a discharge side....like a swimming pool pump has....? Run the suction line to the bottom of the sump. Yes. Maybe Ill give this a try first. If not when looking for the pump to calculate would it be something like.

100gal FT
330 gph pump (could recycle the tank 3 times in one hour, so it can run for about 20 min/hr)
if the outlet connection on the pump is 1/2" with a 150" lift, then that equals 1" with 75" lift, or vice versa to go smaller, correct?
So I just need to figure out how long it takes to fill my GB's.

Is there a big difference between using a sump pump vs. pond pump? I noticed some sump pumps dont have a "lift" specification.


Thanks, I couldnt find any recommendations on this forum or google regarding pumps.

badflash
04-08-2010, 07:14 PM
Get pump curves with any punp and see if the flow matches your needs. I used a home depot sump pump for a while, but being very inefficient, it added too much heat to the water in summer. Pump efficiency is pretty important in the summer.

jackalope
04-08-2010, 10:00 PM
When looking at the pump specs, keep in mind that the 330 GPH is probably with no lift .... I've noticed that the Home Depot/Lowes pond pumps give out these fabulous GPH's, but when you look at the paperwork (badflash calls it the pump curves), you sometimes find out that at the 10 or 12 foot lift, the GPH is something less, like maybe 30 GPH :evil: :evil: As davidstcldfl was pointing out, with more height comes more head pressure!

davidstcldfl
04-12-2010, 04:43 AM
Hi Gigaguy.......Any updates ?

gigaguy
04-12-2010, 05:05 AM
Hi Gigaguy.......Any updates ?
Unfortunately not yet. I am working on getting my large outside dirt garden planted. I will let you guys know.