Heaters

[jackalope]

This thread is for those who want to get an idea of what size heaters they need for their system. For instance:

I'm building a 475 gallon indoor pond for growing out my tilapia ...... will a 1000 watt heater be enough to heat that large of a tank, or will I need a larger heater? I'm looking at the heater that badflash has recommended in other posts from Jeffers Equine Suppy Clik ;) (http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&mscssid=RHU6RUGA175F9JXCKK2NK7T1KFU63R05&pf_id=16047) ...... I'm wondering if I'll need more than one ! My problem with this is that is says it will keep a 5 gallon bucket at 110F ..... this tank will be a little bit larger ;) I believe badflash uses these in his 100 gallon stock tanks, so I'm pretty sure that it will be OK in that small a unit, but how about almost 500 gallons?

For the winter, I had to put all my fish into two 30 gallon glass tanks, and I'm having a hard time keeping my 30 gallon tanks up to 70 with 2 - 300 watt aquarium heaters per tank turned up to the maximum temps, this is what worries me about the 1000 watt heater, will it be enough?

Any ideas?

THX? TIA jackalope

[davidstcldfl]

Hi Jackalope, :D ...I too, have been thinking about and checking out heaters. I'll share what I read at some of the different sites.
The recommendations I read are, 3 to 5 watts per gallon. If the area is cooler, stay in the higher range ( they gave the example of aquariums in a basement).

At that rate, 500 gals would take (at least) 3 of the bucket heaters. Then, if your circulating the water...you would lose lots af heat... :( Maybe, put a heater in the sump to warm the water before going back to the FT (?)

I'm building a 500 gallon tank outside. I'm putting 3/4 inch styrofoam between the frame and the liner. I was more concerned about keeping it 'cooler' in the summer. Now, I'll make sure I have a styrofoam lid too (for winter, when needed) :roll:

Could you wrap the sides of your glass tanks with styro, to help keep in some heat ? Maybe even set the tanks on some styro ? I think I remember Stucco was talking with someone about having a heavy load sitting on it and the styro holding the load (?) I remember a picture of a pallet of tile/stucco mix sitting on styrofoam(?)

I went in a local pet store looking/ pricing some heaters. The owner warned me, when I did get one...(everyone is sold out of them here)..let it sit in the water for 15 mins or more BEFORE plugging it in and turning it on. He had several people cracking the glass by not doing it. :oops:

[badflash]

There are a bunch of variables when it comes to this. How much insultation is there between the room and the tank, how much between the tank and the floor, how much evaporation is there?

When the losses to the environment equal the heat input, the temperature stops going up. If the temperature surrounding the tank drops, the heat input must go up. During the summer when the basement is at 75F, I get by with 1KW cycling and keep 85F. In the winter with basement temps at 60F I have 2KW and have trouble keeping above 75F.

Hope this helps, but you can't really figure this out exactly because there is so much going on.

[jackalope]

Thanks for the input!

I want to make it clear that this thread is not just for my questions, but for anyone who has a question about heaters ...... that way someone skulking the Forum without joining, and wanting answers to his/her questions will possibly be able to find an answer to their dilemma ;). Since we don't have a specific heading for heaters, this will help centralize the heater questions, just as we have centralized other questions such as pumps, etc.

[rfeiller]

Having built a few fish room/ buildings I have found it is more stable and practical to insulate and heat the room. And exchanger warms the feshs air. Also, a dehumidifier will aid in not only reducing down the damaging humidity, but also produce heat.

[davidstcldfl]

Also, a dehumidifier will aid in not only reducing down the damaging humidity, but also produce heat.
Good point, Thanks rfeiller.
My 'soon to be' fish building is well insulated. Running the AC in the (9 months of :roll: ) summer helps with the humidity....but, I guess I'll have to buy a dehumidifier for the winter.

[badflash]

De-humidifiers are not as effective as using ventilation. In winter I vent my fish room outside and heat my house with wood. Costs far less than the power to run a dehumidifier. Healthier air too.

[urbanfarmer]

I tried using a dehumidifier in my green house. The sucker ate almost 20KWh per day, which translated to $2.60 to run it daily. It did keep the greenhouse very tropical, but the electric bill wasn't worth it.

[rfeiller]

compared to the damage moisture can do to a structure, i personally found it reasonable. but, mine doesn't run that much.
i've talked to guys that are using some of the high output lighting and paying 160 per month per light. power varies in cost depending on area considerably.
my 1200gal per day RO system cost a bunch to run. everything is a tradeoff. the guys in my area that are dropping 10k at a time at the hydroponics stores are all raising pot. i know of no other crop in CA that will pay for the heating, lighting, pumps, RO, dehumidifiers, chemicals, fish food, etc. (no i don't raise pot) certainly $3 per pound talapia and a couple of heads of lettuce doesn't. and i didn't even mention the number of hours of labor involved. i do it to have better veggies and the challenge of something new. my $10 a piece tomatoes (oh and the rats ate most of veggies including tomatos while i was away on an emergency) are kinda the laughing stock of my family and friends. but i get a lot of satisfaction raising living things.

Enjoy the wonder of God's creation.

[urbanfarmer]

compared to the damage moisture can do to a structure, i personally found it reasonable. but, mine doesn't run that much.
i've talked to guys that are using some of the high output lighting and paying 160 per month per light. power varies in cost depending on area considerably.
my 1200gal per day RO system cost a bunch to run. everything is a tradeoff. the guys in my area that are dropping 10k at a time at the hydroponics stores are all raising pot. i know of no other crop in CA that will pay for the heating, lighting, pumps, RO, dehumidifiers, chemicals, fish food, etc. (no i don't raise pot) certainly $3 per pound talapia and a couple of heads of lettuce doesn't. and i didn't even mention the number of hours of labor involved. i do it to have better veggies and the challenge of something new. my $10 a piece tomatoes (oh and the rats ate most of veggies including tomatos while i was away on an emergency) are kinda the laughing stock of my family and friends. but i get a lot of satisfaction raising living things.

Enjoy the wonder of God's creation.
Let them laugh, at least you are doing something that makes you happy, healthy, and wiser!

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor ; spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." --Theodore Roosevelt

[davidstcldfl]

:D .....I like it....you need to re-post 'Teddys" quote in Jackalope's new topic....Great Quotes ....

[rfeiller]

badflash,
you'd love living in ca, the CARB (ca air resources board) has determined that wood burning causing air polution so just about every day and night of the year falls under the no burning law. consequently no fireplaces, no wood or pellet heaters, and on and on. we have a choice fossil fuel, or electricity generated by fossil fuel.
the carb has inspectors that drive around looking for smoke from flues or chimneys and then they fine the hell out of you.

you gotta be grateful that you don't live here.

rich

[badflash]

We all have choices. The government currently can't tell you where to live, but it is tought to pull up roots. NY isn't as nuts as CA, but we are close.

[urbanfarmer]

:D .....I like it....you need to re-post 'Teddys" quote in Jackalope's new topic....Great Quotes ....
done sir

[rfeiller]

Yup, badflash, bought 76 acres in NV yesterday. :-)

[davidstcldfl]

bought 76 acres in NV yesterday
if I ever moved from FL.....I might go back to NV.......maybe live in Pahrump :D

[rfeiller]

Just above Reno.

[badflash]

Did you check their restrictions on Tilapia and Crayfish?

[rfeiller]

haven't checked with the authorities on tilapia and crayfish i will not raise for the food industry, just the pet industry.

[urbanfarmer]

Yup, badflash, bought 76 acres in NV yesterday. :-)
Was it cheap? I have seen those 80 acres going for pennies on the dollar per acre!

[rfeiller]

Land in the dry lake beds is cheap kinda like the Everglades use to be.

[rfeiller]

badflash,
talked to the local nv authorites; a new ruling came down, no tilapia aquaculture in nevada.

[krfoerster]

Oklahoma is free. You can almost burn tires in your front yard here. Come check it out.

[keith_r]

back on topic regarding heaters.. has anyone used a heating blanket under a kiddie pool? i'm thinking of using an 8' snapset pool, 18" deep (for cray's)

[urbanfarmer]

back on topic regarding heaters.. has anyone used a heating blanket under a kiddie pool? i'm thinking of using an 8' snapset pool, 18" deep (for cray's)
Make use it's waterproof or you could have an unforeseen accident...

[badflash]

Bad Idea, but a waterbed heater works great. Real cheap on ebay. 300 watts for around $15.

[keith_r]

Bad Idea, but a waterbed heater works great. Real cheap on ebay. 300 watts for around $15.
yeah, that's what i meant.. thanks!

[badflash]

Just remember to put some cushioning between the floor and the heater. I used styro sheets. Keep the control units off the floor so they don't short out. 2 300 watt heaters will be enough if you insulate the walls and float some insulation on the top. Keep the water level at 12" so the crays don't escape.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c70/badflash/snails/pool.jpg

[RickS]

Hi everybody,

I am new to this but I have been doing a lot of research and experimentation. I have looked a many heaters, and I like the 3-5 kw per gallon. Also the other reccomendation I appreciate is it is better to use several small heaters rather than one large one. I have a 900 gallon tank, the minimum reccomended amount was 3,000 kw. But they reccomended six 500 kw heaters on one controller rather than one large heater. The rationale was that should a heater fail I would still have five heaters functioning unti I replaced the failed unit.

The other thing I have been researching and experimenting with is a wood fired snorkel stove. The firebox sets in the water heating directly, and in the greenhouse you also get heat from the top of the stove and chimney heating the air. I am going to use this in conjunction with the electric heaters to offset electric costs. I am building my fist stove out of mild steel, then having it powder coated to cut down on corrosion. These stoves are currently used to heat wood hot tubs. The nice thing about this stove is that it is an open system. Whereas a closed system (boiler) has pressure issues. Temperature control is more difficult, but as an augment to the electric heaters, a good way to cut down on electric consumption. You can buy the stove for about $7-900.00. I have priced my material for the stove and can build it for about $100.00. I have a complete wood and metal working shop so I have access to all the equipment. Should it work out as planned, I will market the stove for about $300.00 plus shipping.

[davidstcldfl]

Cool....or should I say 'warm' ... :)
I looked at the snorkels......nice design, but like you said....a little pricey. Of course once a guy started paying for electric heat, that would / will add up fast too.....$$$$

Looking forward to what you come up with.. :)

[badflash]

RickS-
I think you mean watts, not KW. 3000 KW would boil 900 gallons in no time. 2 Kw is what I used in my 900 gallon basement system. Heat needs depend a lot on ambient temperature and how well insultated & covered your tanks are.

If you have access to lots of cheap wood, a snorkel stove can make sense. At 10 cents a KW hour and 2 KW heater will cost you about $5 a day or $150 a month. A winter will repay you handsomely assuming you can control the beast. I personally would use it to heat another tank used to supply hot water as needed to keep other tanks warm, rather than put it directly in the fish tank.

[RickS]

Yes you are right. 3kw is what I meant. I was thinking of a recommendation of using multiple heaters, like (6) 500 watt heaters instead of one 3kw. The reasoning was if one went out the others would keep operating until the faulty unit was replaced. But thanks for the response. My tank is going to be in my greenhouse. So I figured the snorkel stove would also increase the ambient temp. because the top of the stove and the chimney will give off heat as well. Also my intention is to fire the wood stove to decrease the electric consumption not to completely replace it. Unless of course I lose power, (couple times at least every year.) Last year the outage lasted a week. Then I figured I would need a generator to charge and maintain a twelve volt back up system for aeration and at least partial pump system. Still working out all the possible scenarios to prevent total losses. Thanks again, I appreciate your input.

[badflash]

A back up generator is a must, and you need to run it once a month to keep the carb clear. Keep the gas fresh too as it gets growies now that it is lead free.

I use 1 KW stock tank heaters controlled by an electronic thermostat.

[tem1160]

What type of stock tank heater do you use? The only ones I have found have a thermostat that operates between 35 and 55 degrees. how do you get yours above 55 degrees?

[badflash]

This is what I use:
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/1000-wa ... /cp/5F-B1/ (http://www.jefferslivestock.com/1000-watt-water-heater/camid/LIV/cp/5F-B1/)

[tem1160]

Thanks. I just purchased two. Looks they will do what I want and what a great price.

[organicus_rex]

Has anyone considered a homemade air-to-air heat exchanger to modulate humidity in the winter time?

http://www.ehow.com/way_5782458_diy-hom ... anger.html (http://www.ehow.com/way_5782458_diy-home-outside-air-exchanger.html)

This sounds like a fairly simple project and the cost of building and operating should be less than a dehumidifier.

[rfeiller]

I have installed a couple of air exchangers in fish hatcheries. You have to remember that the air in the room has to be constantly conditioned for heat and cool, this drives the utility cost up. A dehumidifier operating should be less of a cost impact. This of course is determined by your weather and humidity.

[badflash]

SHCS...How It's Done..! (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?51-SHCS-How-It-s-Done-!)
is a much better choice.

[blaster1]

Hi all
Call me silly but has anyone looked at the principles of geyser heater pumps? Basically it's a reverse refrigiration/ac unit that warms the water. Have you felt the back of your refrigerator ? I think this could work for small setups coiling tubing around the condensor/evaprator (not sure what it's called :oops: ) & circulating water through it. Thats an apliance we have running in most of our homes 24/7.
Another Idea I was planning to use for my project (large scale) was to have a compost heap between the 2 tunnels with pvc pipes running through it. the compost would be fed by veggie waste etc. those things get damn hot inside
Anyway just some ideas I am/have considdered

G

[foodchain]

Are you talking about geo thermal? Not quite accurate in your explanation.
All it is, is using the earch as a heat exhanger, and a heat pump.
Anyone needs info on this, I have lots as I looked into my drilling license here in TX for about 3 months ago.
You aren't actually moving anything out of the ground....just heating a liquid, usually an oil base or something similar inside a pipe. So one pipe is the sleve, the other is the smaller pipe with the fluid. The ground heats up the fluid and it is circulated through the heat pump, this will both heat and cool depending on whether ground is warmer or cooler than surface ambient temp.
Thermostats built into heat pumps on the higher end units will open and close automatically when a desired temp is reached.
Now don't crucify me here....this is a really really simplified version of how it works. It IS NOT a DIY guideline. DO NOT start digging a hole based on this. There's a reason it cost $4k here for an apprenticeship and at least 2 years on hands experience to be qualified, and you must pass the state's tests. This is just the super big bird version of it. I hope I didn't skip anything.

[foodchain]

I have a thread on the compost heater as well. Found some good info and put the links on there to I think....If not PM me and I will get them again. There's been a lot of work done on the compost heat exchanger, dates back to late 60's, possibly further. But the info I have show different designs on it from around that time.

[keith_r]

Jean Pain, the french guy did some interesting stuff;
Jean Pain (1930–1981) was a French innovator who developed a compost based bioenergy system that produced 100% of his energy needs. He heated water to 60 degrees celsius at a rate of 4 litres a minute which he used for washing and heating. He also distilled enough methane to run an electricity generator, cooking elements, and power his truck. This method of creating usable energy from composting materials has come to be known as Jean Pain Composting, or the Jean Pain Method.

[foodchain]

I have seen the documents where the water is passed through a pipe, or even a coil of pipe. Just like a heat exchanger. But the problems with them all has been consistancy. Methayne (sp) reactors are popular with some 'purists' and I have done some reading on them. But they would require a copius amount of bio waste to keep generating enough meth to run a whole house...well maybe okay for a real small one, less than a 1K ft. You got me thinkning now. I am gonna pull that stuff out again and play with it a little.

[blaster1]

Hi guys
Sorry for sounding dumb but here in SA we have a major electricity crisis & we the fools on the end get nailed for our suppliers mistakes :evil: . anyhow a 1.5k bill is doing well in my town so I look at everything that gives off heat & try & figure a way to use it. The govt gives rebates on using "geyser heating pumps" for preheating the hot water feed that goes to the water heaters. Sorry i see my mistake now :oops: we call them geysers you call them water heaters. this is an ac type unit that runs with minimal electricty usage & warms the water so the water heater wont work so hard to heat the household water hence big electricity savings.
Thats where I figured the fridges coil in the back is always hot. It runs about 45 C /113 F. :idea: its wasted energy why not use it?

G

[foodchain]

I don't follow. My water heater runs off gas, but there are electric ones available. The older style ones had aftermarket 'jackets' you could purchase for added insulation. This had them kicking on and off a lot less. Yes you are right, regardless of power source, they do put off an ambient heat. This is why my home office, which has the water heater and furnace in the closet, make that one room a lot hotter. IF you reroute your main water supply through your attic the ambient heat the builds up will in turn heat the water before the water heater. I did this and by accident I found that the water temp before the heater, or the cold lines are heating the water so hot I can't put my hand in it (durring Summer months, luke warm winter). But if you let it run for a while the cooler water from in the ground eventually runs the hotter water out. So, if I were to either slow the flow at the faucet or increase the amount of pipe in attic I could increase how long the water is in the attic, in turn prolonging the amount of warm water. If you use pex instead of copper, you will save an enormous amount of cash in materials, and there's no sweating/soldering involved.

[davidstcldfl]

this is an ac type unit that runs with minimal electricty usage & warms the water so the water heater wont work so hard to heat the household water hence big electricity savings.

This is an 'energy recovery unit'....the hot gas/refrigerant comming out of the compressor goes to the unit.
The unit has two coils...one for water (from the hot water tank) and the other for the 'hot gas'. The heat from the gas transfers into the water.
Blaster is correct...the pump in the ERU is very small....uses very little electric. It only ran, when the AC unit ran and the gas was 'hot enough'

Here in the States...these units worked very well when R-22 was still being widely used. They worked so well...that I know folks who turned 'off' their hot water tanks all summer. All their hot water came from the ERU on the AC unit.
Now that we are using puron/410-A refrigerant....they no longer work (as well). Most/all are abandoned when switching out an R-22 unit to Puron/ 410-A.

I don't know if recovering the heat from a refrigerator coil would be worth the effort and cost...?

[Shas]

Having built a few fish room/ buildings I have found it is more stable and practical to insulate and heat the room.

No doubt about it.
When I was in university I wrapped a bedroom with plastic
and had forty 40-gallon tanks in it,
plus my various small brooding tanks, brine shrimp tanks, etc
and I heated the whole business to 80 degrees
with 2500 watts of baseboard heater.

[foodchain]

Makes sense, with that water volume, it will hold heat throughout the day/night better and more consistantly than air. One of the reasons why bigger systems are more stable.
10 gallons fluctuates a lot more than 3,000.

[Shas]

Should it work out as planned, I will market the stove for about $300.00 plus shipping.

Hey there, Rick.
So, how did it work out?
Are you marketing your snorkel stove?
I've always loved that idea,
but I've never figured out how to make a water tight seal
between a hot stove and anything short of a steel tank.

[Shas]

Thats where I figured the fridges coil in the back is always hot. It runs about 45 C /113 F. :idea: its wasted energy why not use it?


Wasted?
Not at all-
it helps to heat my house!
I am generating 20 kw off of my creek,
but I still have to watch my electrical consumption.
A 2,000 w baseboard heater uses a tenth of my total output!

Insulation is the big thing, in my mind.
It's cheap, whether insulating a fish room or a single tank,
and with no further maintenance or attention
it saves power year after year.

[keith_r]

you loose a lot of heat from the surface of the ft, but the growbeds are the main culprit in heat transfer.. floating styro on the ft surface will help, and insulating the gb's..
it's not even in to winter here yet (well.. technically it's winter, but not much snow yet) and my pool ft is at 64, the only insulation i have for it is the 1" blueboard on the floor..

[foodchain]

Keith_r.....wouldn't the solution then be to heat the room? Like in your case, a small pot bellied wood stove in the basement would raise the temperature, and the radiant heat then benefit the house above it. Harbor Freight has cheap ones, nothing fancy and even really small.
A single piece of hardwood would go a long way esp. if chimney pipe is routed to max. exposure to indoor air, then vent out basement window. Just make the stack tall enough to gain a solid updraft or risk smoking yourself out. Been there, done that.

[keith_r]

yeah, i just met a guy on another forum that is retired and makes wood burning stoves.. i'm definitely thinking about it, but i gotta get the system going first,, the fish and crays that i have will be fine.. if i do get to the point where i can heat the basement like that, i'll be trying tilapia and redclaw crayfish

[Eleven11]

I've been considering building a rocket mass heater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtFvdMk3eLM

Not necessarily that design. Probably a simple rocket stove with a copper heat exchanger coiled around the flue.

...plenty of fuel laying around.


I've also been considering a solar water heater. Something like this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTO4aQZ9 ... 7C8B3CF879 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTO4aQZ9LI8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLF46CAA7C8B3CF879)



Then there is the 2Kw heater at Home Depot...
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... ogId=10053 (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202733441/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

[foodchain]

I have been playing with a biomass stove, and using copper coils around the barrel sides to function as heat exchanger. Two problems....consistancy of temp, and copper is expensive.
I routed pex water lines through attic, and this has help more than I could have dreamed, but is still dependant upon the time of year and outside temps.

[Shas]

No concerns about copper in contact with the fish water?
I've always considered Cu to be a biocide...

[foodchain]

My experience...just my experience here has been that I have only run into problems with inverts. All the material I have read sais it's toxic but just haven't seen it. Let's assume I have been lucky, or not had high enough concentrations. Even then, I don't have to return that water directly to the tank. For instance in geothermal work, the well is drilled and sleaved, then a fluid, usually an oil based solution is pumped through it in a closed loop deal. You're never actually pumping anything out to of the well. Just moving the fluid you put there in a recirculation system. Utilizing the ground like a heat exchanger. I would be utilizing the fireplace the same way. The flu/stove heats the water in the coils, which is pumped through to another set of coils/radiator system that radiates the heat off.

The enclosed water never has to come in direct contact with the FT water, and I don't have to use copper on any system components that come in contact with/near the water.
This eliminates all copper concerns. I have seen someone use a gas home water heater, and utiize a similar design only they used high pressure/temp plastic tubing and just dropped into the pool. The hot water recirculates through the tubing coil. Pex may work as a better option than what this guy did. I am already working with a pex exchanger in my attic and it's phenominal.

Just my opinion, but I think there are more effecient ways of producing heat than this.
I am not impressed with the solar stuff, not much effeciency or energy production for the initial expense. Quite frankly, it sucks. Ever try a solar pump....want to waste the money, check out harbor freight.

I have tried many versions of heat exchanger designs and those seem to be both the cheapest to set up, and the cheapest to operate. I am finding that there's energy all over the place, in a great many things that for a variety of reasons just have been overlooked or not developed.
Doing reading on ethynol engines, etc and it's interesting to read how we came to run gas through our engines instead of the original alcohol. Seems there was about a $1/gallon tax on alcohol back then.....and gas was about 20 cents/gallon. So go figure...had more to do with market manipulation than actual productivity. Much in the same way we came to AC current instead of DC. Speaking of which, I saw on the news that incandescant light bulbs are going away, being replaced by manufacturers all together. We now have to use the energy effecient bulbs. I tried them a couple of times, and was frustrated by the gross lack of light...they suck!!! and that's being polite. Then I saw articles that documented that little ballast in the base on those goes bad and causes house fires. There was a warning issued by a fire inspector/marshal in CA regarding these things. Nice.

But I am getting off track. The original engine designs were completely setup to run on alcohol/ethynol The problems arise...if I read it all right. That's a big IF. But it appears that that stuff pulls water from anywhere it can get it. So the first thing you run into is fuel tanks rusting, fuel lines rusting, not to mention how much of your engine internal like water, etc. But with more and more plastics in cars, I am not so sure how much of this is a problem now.

Also read where people are running deisels off of 100% used motor oil...problems arise with the viscosity and pumping through the engine so they preheat it by running lines of it around the exhaust pipes. The heat thins it down and allows it to pass through the injectors. Seems the engine just has to be hot enough to thin it out.

As I look around, and I start to educate myself on this stuff, I start to wonder how much of the "shortages" we have are true shortages? Water shortages, fuel shortages, food shortages...how much of it is real, and how much is created, how much is media based hype? I know from working the oilfield, and seeing first hand that we have a vast supply of oil here.

However, no one wants the oil rig in their backyard, SF Bay for instance has one of the greatest deposits in N. America. Drilling, even for an underwater well head that isn't visible isn't allowed.
The pipeline that pumps from the sands in Canada to the refineries in the south that will produce thousands of jobs, and releive the strain of this industry is now delayed possibly even shut down.

It's hard to seperate the media from reality. Shas I am so sorry I have just totally tumbled off topic.

[bsfman]

I don't have to return that water directly to the tank. For instance in geothermal work, the well is drilled and sleaved, then a fluid, usually an oil based solution is pumped through it in a closed loop deal. You're never actually pumping anything out to of the well. Just moving the fluid you put there in a recirculation system. Utilizing the ground like a heat exchanger. I would be utilizing the fireplace the same way. The flu/stove heats the water in the coils, which is pumped through to another set of coils/radiator system that radiates the heat off.


Recirculating a separate heating fluid is a good idea. Perhaps a stainless steel coil or manifold containing the recirculating fluid and immersed in the tank would solve the metal contact issue and provide better heat transfer to the tank water than PEX.

Two other issues to take into account are pressure build up in the closed loop system and a pump capable of handling hot liquids. You could solve the pressure issue by using a recirc fluid with a higher boiling point that water and recirculating the fluid through a heat pickup manifold inserted in a large container of boiling water on your stove rather than a coil in contact with stove surfaces so that you know the recirc fluid will never exceed 212F. Hot fluid pumps are expensive, but here's one reasonably priced. Don't know what the flow rate is though...
http://www.amazon.com/March-High-Temperature-Brewing-Brew/dp/B002O47P26

[Shas]

My experience...just my experience here has been that I have only run into problems with inverts. All the material I have read sais it's toxic but just haven't seen it.

This is the question I'm asking-
I know that copper is the traditional biocide in marine paints,
and it seems to do a decent job
at discouraging both plants and invertebrates from growing
on boat bottoms and submarine structures.
Yet humans have been drinking from copper pipes
and cups and kettles since the Bronze Age.

When I was raising angel fish back in the 1980s
I found that the lead water pipes in my old house
interfered with the development of both eggs and fry,
yet the fertility and growth of humans in my neighbourhood
did not appear to be effected.
(Humans seem to have an enormous resistance
to the immediate effects of ingesting pesticides and herbicides)

So what is the real-life effect on fish and gardens
of heating and delivering water with copper pipes?





It's hard to seperate the media from reality.

Ain't that the truth.
I've been involved directly or indirectly
with hundreds of events that were afterwards reported in the "news"
and never to my knowledge
has the report been accurate or even factual.
Not even one single time.
Which is why I'm asking the people who have actually done the experiment-
what is the real-life effect on fish and gardens
of heating and delivering water with copper pipes?

I'm aware of the separate-fluid heat exchangers,
and if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.
But if the risks of Cu-contamination are purely hypothetical,
we can save a lot of cost and effort
by simply using domestic water heaters directly.

Oh, and speaking of experience-
I used to run my 1973 Chev 350
on alcohol made in my solar still.
The ONLY negative issues I encountered
were rust in my fuel tank and exhaust system.

[foodchain]

Okay. That confirms the data on the alcohol chasing the water so to speak. Use plastic tank, and no problem. In reality, long term use of even gas wears exhaust pipes out. So that's a consumable. Just can't do it on a new car due to the EPA stuff. I found out it's illegal to modify a new car....take my word, don't do it.

I like the idea of heating a recirculating liquid. Use maybe hydraulic fluid. Cheap and accessable. We used it a lot on the oil rigs and I have experience with it. Use gravity to push it in the pipes. Like a syphon. But don't put the boiling solution on top of the stove, sleave it maybe or make a chamber inside the stove, so that the heat engulfs it. I have a fireplace in my living room that has air spaces/channels around it and blowers that circulate the air. It activates my thermostat, or manual over ride.

Same idea....incredably effecient, I can make it kick on from just kindling. I heats my whole house, and we are poorly insulated. I am still working on this issue.

I have fought wars now on 3 continents. Media is just as evil as the enemy, even our local raised media. Reporters wonder why no one will talk to them.

Anyway. Your fuel can be made from just about anything. So, the issue then becomes producing high enough concentrations for a 'purer' fuel. I would think a condensor would work best for that.

Your thoughts on lead above, and on copper I think are in the right direction however you haven't taken into consideration the dosage to mass. Lead in water, that totally encompasses a fish, is intaken by a fish will expose it to more of the toxin than say you drinking the same glass of water.

Also...the prolonged effects of it being put on the lawn or in the AP system would depend on frequency of dosage, and concentration. Example...Caffiene doesn't get used up by human bodies that ingest it...your body uses some, and expells the rest. Studies are coming out now that fish in rivers and streams are showing caffiene in their tissues. Long term effects no one has a clear answer on from what I have read, as it appears this is all new stuff we are learning.

People who keep reefs sometimes top off with tap water, I have done this with no ill effects. Some people's systems don't react well. But the water is delivered via copper pipes....so...who knows. Sea water has copper in it, amongst other metals and toxins. I believe, and this is just me that the doses, and concentrations are low enough that it's not a concern or has any noticable effects.

I would compare it Mercury in catfish. This is a common pollutant, and builds in fish tissue, that's why we are supposed to limit our consumption of wild cuaght catfish in some areas of the South and the Carolinas especially. But it appears to be nonfatal to the fish in lower doses. Small amounts over time seem to be okay.

What modifications did you have to do to your truck? That year I believe ran on a carb. 4 barrel I beleive. I am interested in setting one up, but am hesitant to do 100% cold turkey change over.

[foodchain]

Found this link....Maybe help someone reading this thread. I am adding my note here stating that I haven't read ALL of these, nor have I tried them....just providing the data. Included here is some data on methane reactors and distillers.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Bi ... ofuels.htm (http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/BioFuel/biofuels.htm)

[foodchain]

Same link also has data on heating with compost, wood, corn, biomass, etc.

[Shas]

even gas wears exhaust pipes out.

I think you can now buy carbon-fibre exhaust pipes,
or ceramic-lined.


I found out it's illegal to modify a new car....take my word, don't do it.

It was illegal to make my ethanol fuel, too.
I stopped worrying about legalities 40 years ago.


I have a fireplace in my living room that has air spaces/channels around it and blowers that circulate the air.

I too have a heatilator fireplace.
Awesome inventions!
With the fans running that thing out-heats my 2 wood stoves
by an order of magnitude, I'm sure.
I also have stove-top fans from Lee Valley
that generate their own power from the heat of the stoves.
They are small, but make a powerful difference in effective heat.


Your fuel can be made from just about anything. So, the issue then becomes producing high enough concentrations for a 'purer' fuel. I would think a condensor would work best for that.

Hemp would be ideal, but there we run into the law again.
My solar still produced sixty-percent ethanol (40% water)
in a single pass,
and that is about ideal for use as fuel in a carbureted engine.
I think that's the mixture Henry Ford designed his motors to use.
The joke about "gasohol" is that the alcohol must be water-free
to remain mixed with gasoline.
As in so many areas of human endeavour,
the final 10% requires 90% of the energy.
This makes gasohol expensive as hell,
whilst 120-proof ethanol is cheap as borscht.


What modifications did you have to do to your truck? That year I believe ran on a carb. 4 barrel I beleive. I am interested in setting one up, but am hesitant to do 100% cold turkey change over.

Yes, I think it had a Holly 4-barrel carb.
The books said that installing larger jets
would make up for the larger molecules,
and retain the original horsepower while using more fuel per mile.
I made no modifications whatsoever,
and had plenty of power and no problems.

I was initially reluctant
to just fill my tank with moonshine and head off down the highway,
so I secured a 1-gallon bleach bottle under the hood
and spliced a 3-way valve into my gas line.
That way I figured I could try out the alcohol in the bottle
and if I had a problem I could switch back to the gasoline tank.
But I never had to switch back,
and ended up using the valve in reverse:
I drove on the gas tank until it ran dry,
then switched to the alcohol bottle
to get me home
so I could fill the tank with hootch!

It still makes me sigh to recall that I never tasted a drop
of the many tanks of ethanol I made.



Caffiene doesn't get used up by human bodies that ingest it...

I suppose this thread will get booted to the Sump soon :=)
I've been wondering about the use of coffee grounds as earthworm food.
My grandpa was an enthusiastic fisherman,
and fed his worms on his morning coffee grounds
for many years with great success.
But surely the coffee maker doesn't extract ALL of the caffein from the beans.
Does living upon and in coffee grounds
make the worms edgy and irritable?



I believe, and this is just me that the [copper] concentrations are low enough that it's not a concern or has any noticable effects.

I hope that's true,
and I hope someone can point us to experience or research to confirm that.
Using copper pipes and heaters is so much cheaper and easier
than building heat-exchangers.


I would compare it Mercury in catfish.

The thing about heavy metals is that low on the food chain
they are present in low concentrations.
When the bass eats the catfish
he gets a big dose of mercury from the catfish fat.
When the pike eats the bass
he gets the mercury from all of the catfish eaten by the bass.
And when the pelican eats the pike
he ingests the mercury eaten by all of the catfish
and all of the bass
and the pike
in a single meal!
And he does that in EVERY meal,
which is why even low ambient mercury levels
can prevent the hatching and development
of young pelicans and eagles and condors.

And yet those old lead water pipes
prevented reproduction in my angel fish.
There are still lots more questions than answers.

[Shas]

The ONLY negative issues I encountered
were rust in my fuel tank and exhaust system.

I think I should re-state this.
Burning ethanol definitely increased the apparent rate of rusting in my exhaust pipe.
It also increased the apparent presence of rust
captured in my fuel filter.
I interpreted this as an increase in the rate of rusting in my fuel tank
but now that I think about it,
that may be a false interpretation.

It may be that the alcohol was acting as a cleansing agent,
and was actually REMOVING rust from my tank.
Or perhaps by absorbing the pre-existing water condensation
it simply CARRIED the suspended rust out of my tank
more efficiently than the previous water-repelling gasoline had done.

So, yes, I did see more rust in my fuel filter,
but I don't know what is implied...

[bsfman]

My experience...just my experience here has been that I have only run into problems with inverts. All the material I have read sais it's toxic but just haven't seen it. Let's assume I have been lucky, or not had high enough concentrations. Even then, I don't have to return that water directly to the tank. For instance in geothermal work, the well is drilled and sleaved, then a fluid, usually an oil based solution is pumped through it in a closed loop deal. You're never actually pumping anything out to of the well. Just moving the fluid you put there in a recirculation system. Utilizing the ground like a heat exchanger. I would be utilizing the fireplace the same way. The flu/stove heats the water in the coils, which is pumped through to another set of coils/radiator system that radiates the heat off.

The enclosed water never has to come in direct contact with the FT water, and I don't have to use copper on any system components that come in contact with/near the water.
This eliminates all copper concerns. I have seen someone use a gas home water heater, and utiize a similar design only they used high pressure/temp plastic tubing and just dropped into the pool. The hot water recirculates through the tubing coil. Pex may work as a better option than what this guy did. I am already working with a pex exchanger in my attic and it's phenominal.


Faced with temps forecasted to be as low as 31F tonight here in southwest Florida, I had to come up with some sort of heater augmentation to the 1000watts worth of aquarium heaters in my smaller system's fish tank. My existing heaters just won't hold temps in a safe range with this sort of ambient temp. I tried submersing a long coil of vinyl tubing in the pot for my propane fired cajun cooker, and pumping my recirculating water for my mechanical filter through it, but despite high temps in the hot water in the cooker, there was insuffient heat transfer thru the vinyl tubing to raise the temp more than 1/2 degree centigrade. Desperate for a solution, I decided to risk the short term copper exposure rather than certain death of my tilapia due to the coming cold.

I substituted a 25 foot coil of 1/2" inside diameter copper tubing (my old homebrewing beer wort chiller) for the vinyl tubing inside the pot. Viola! I heated the water in the pot to 91F, set the propane flame at a level to hold it there, and after pumping the water out of the submerged copper coil, thru the plumbing and my mechanical filter, and cascading it into the fish tank, it was still consistantly at 81F and within a couple of hours had raised the temp of the entire system to 81F. The superior heat transfer of the copper did the trick. It's not an ideal solution, but I am hoping that used only short term for emergent conditions, it will suffice. I would be more concerned if my system water was acidic and the ionization of the copper that might cause, but my water is at a pH of 8.2. There is no copper to other metal contact, so no chance of electrolysis via that route.

So far, my tilapia are quite happy and frisky with no apparent ill effects. I'm hopeful this will get me through this cold snap for the next few days. At this point, I am more concerned about what effect the copper will have on my nitrifying bacteria that on my fish or plants.

[Shas]

People who brew their own beer can handle anything!
Sounds like you've solved the temperature problem, at least.
Here's hoping your bacteria thrive as well.

We are having a cold spell, too,
and our domestic water heater decided to die last night.
It has earned its keep
as I installed it when I built the house 20 years ago,
but cold showers in January are not my idea of a happy new year!

On the other hand, this is a chance
to buy a smaller and less aggressive heater-
this one is 60 gallons and 9 kilowatts!

[Eleven11]

Wow, great work. I'm not sure what a cajun cooker is... I'll look it up.

I'm a bit new and currently working on my water chemistry still. Isn't a ph of 8.2 a bit high?






I substituted a 25 foot coil of 1/2" inside diameter copper tubing (my old homebrewing beer wort chiller) for the vinyl tubing inside the pot. Viola! I heated the water in the pot to 91F, set the propane flame at a level to hold it there, and after pumping the water out of the submerged copper coil, thru the plumbing and my mechanical filter, and cascading it into the fish tank, it was still consistantly at 81F and within a couple of hours had raised the temp of the entire system to 81F. The superior heat transfer of the copper did the trick. It's not an ideal solution, but I am hoping that used only short term for emergent conditions, it will suffice. I would be more concerned if my system water was acidic and the ionization of the copper that might cause, but my water is at a pH of 8.2. There is no copper to other metal contact, so no chance of electrolysis via that route.

[keith_r]

a ph of 8.2 is high, and some plants may suffer from nutrient lockout, but dosing with maxicrop with iron will help the plants until the nitrification process gets going, and unless their are some buffers in the sytem, ph will drop.. my ph was in the high 7's consistently for 8 or 9 months and then it plummeted almost 2 full points to the low 6's where it stayed until i added some shell grit, right now it's right around 7...

[Eleven11]

So the maxicrop caused it to fall like that? I have a similar kelp extract but haven't added any yet.

I read that Borax is a good ph buffer in general but not sure if it would be good in an aquaponic system.

My ph was around 8.2 also so I added a little sodium bisulfate which is used for swimming pools.

What do you use to bring your's up?




a ph of 8.2 is high, and some plants may suffer from nutrient lockout, but dosing with maxicrop with iron will help the plants until the nitrification process gets going, and unless their are some buffers in the sytem, ph will drop.. my ph was in the high 7's consistently for 8 or 9 months and then it plummeted almost 2 full points to the low 6's where it stayed until i added some shell grit, right now it's right around 7...

[davidstcldfl]

What do you use to bring your's up?


Keith_r wrote ...... it plummeted almost 2 full points to the low 6's where it stayed until i added some shell grit, right now it's right around 7...



11:11 A mature system 'usually' starts to drop the PH.....adding something like shell grit (or clean egg shells), like Kieth has, will slowly buffer the water and bring the PH 'up' again. With fish....'slowly' is the key word, whether your raising or lowering the PH.

Some folks add it in a mesh bag, incase they want to remove it easily.

[keith_r]

the maxicrop is just to add some micro-nutrients that the plants are lacking, or can't get because the ph is high.. it's actually the nitrification process that causes the ph to drop
i avoid most pool or aquaria chemicals...
shell grit and/or egg shells will naturally dissove if the ph drops below 7 or so.. maybe a little higher.. but then stops buffering when the ph is i think around 7.4.. eggshells have the added benefit of putting calcium into the system..
some folks bury a banana skin to add potassium, but did you know potatoes have more potassium than banannas?

[Eleven11]

I'm gonna give my 1500 watt electric heater a try. I'll let you know how it works out.

Here are some pics.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/dsc05790l.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/dsc05791t.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/dsc05789bx.jpg/

The thermometer shows 69F but after ten minutes the 5 gallons of water went from 56F to 71F.

I still plan to build a rocket heater and solar collectors but this was quick and easy to build and the weather has gotten really cold all the sudden.

[Shas]

did you know potatoes have more potassium than banannas?

I had never heard that.
Thanks for the tip!

[foodchain]

Not familiar with your heater...that's some serious wattage though. Is it a DIY or commercial unit?

[Eleven11]

Not familiar with your heater...that's some serious wattage though. Is it a DIY or commercial unit?

Yeah, it's a DIY deal. $10 replacement element for an electric hotwater heater. I mounted it in some 1" pvc and sealed it with silicon. The tube is about 20 inches long so it's close to the bottom of the tank so the heated water will flow to the top and help with circulation. The fish tank is on it's own water apart from the grow beds for now. I have a 20 gallon tote acting as a sump with the fish in it so I can monitor them too. 6 comets about 2 1/2 inches long... the small pond pump sends water to the big fish tank and I set up a SLO to bring the water back to the sump where it pours into a DIY gravel filter in the tote so the tote water stays more calm for the fish... plenty of bubbles too as it hits the surface.

I put it in the fish tank at 10:40am. The temp was 54F.

I last checked it at about 3:00pm and it's up to about 65F. It's 45F outside and mostly sunny today.

I'll update some more as I monitor it's performance.

[foodchain]

I wonder if it wouldn't be more effective putting a small powerhead at the bottom of the pipe to circulate the water past the element? I never thought of using this, but like the idea. Where did you find just the element? One concern though, if it's just the element how do you control the on/off cycle with no thermostat? Otherwise it's on all the time and you will end up with smelly fish soup slowly broiled.

[Eleven11]

I wonder if it wouldn't be more effective putting a small powerhead at the bottom of the pipe to circulate the water past the element? I never thought of using this, but like the idea. Where did you find just the element? One concern though, if it's just the element how do you control the on/off cycle with no thermostat? Otherwise it's on all the time and you will end up with smelly fish soup slowly broiled.

Here's a link to Lowes' for the heater element.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_26371-135-69104 ... facetInfo= (http://www.lowes.com/pd_26371-135-6910470_0__?productId=3133515&Ntt=element&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Delement&facetInfo=)

There is no thermostat yet.... that would be part 2 of the design. For now, it's still in beta test mode. Not sure what to use for building the thermostat yet.

I thought about circulation so that's why I have the 1" pvc cross connector at the top of the element. I can add a fitting for a hose there but the powerhead on the bottom is a good idea too. Since the heater is at the bottom of the tank and the warm water rises, it does pretty good for circulation so far.

This morning the temp is up to 80F so I switched off the heater. The fish seem to be having a party... very lively for some reason :) . Now that the tank is warmed up, I'll check and see how fast the temp falls and try to regulate it.

The fish tank algae seems to be having a party too unfortunately. Not sure what to do about that yet. I don't have a good filter in line. Guess I'll see about building one of those too. I am considering dosing with peroxide after watching some aquarium videos. It seems to be really effective on algae without hurting the fish.

[keith_r]

don't dose with peroxide, it will interfere with the cycling of your system at the minimum, completely stop it at the most..
cover the tank so that no light gets in, and add aeration if you don't have any - the algae will consume oxygen, but the "bloom" will die off after a few days, which releases some chemicals that inhibit further blooms

[Eleven11]

Thanx for the tip. Covering the tank has been on my list.

I just added an AP 20 air pump yesterday and it's going like gangbusters... bubbles galore.

Strange about algae, since it's a plant I assumed it would consume carbon dioxide.




don't dose with peroxide, it will interfere with the cycling of your system at the minimum, completely stop it at the most..
cover the tank so that no light gets in, and add aeration if you don't have any - the algae will consume oxygen, but the "bloom" will die off after a few days, which releases some chemicals that inhibit further blooms

[foodchain]

Don't sweat the algae. Your beta testing right now. The increase in temp has caused or rather encouraged the bloom. Increase aeriation.
Maybe put the heating element on a cheap 110v timer. I bought mine for like $5....increase the frequency raises the temp. Just a thought. I like this. I wonder what max gallon capacity would be? Guess this depends on ambient temp.

[foodchain]

How did you connect the element to a power source?

[commander]

I saw a remote stand alone thermostat unit at Home Depot a few weeks ago. It had a probe that could be stuck into a crock pot or electric cooker. The power cord for the electric cooker was plugged into the thermostat itself. It looked like a pretty slick little deal and might work to operate your heater.

[Eleven11]

The top of the element has connection screws. I just took a 8 foot piece of a 12 gauge outdoor extension cord, stripped one end for the element, and kept the plug end.

I have a 24 hour timer that I could use if I just wanted it on for a set number of hours per day or night. Thermostat would keep up better with the wacky weather temp swings though.

So far, it's holding it's temp at 79F last I checked at 12PM. The heater was turned off at 7:30am and the tank is holding about 245 gallons.

The inside dome temperature is bouncing between 65F and 70F, since we're finally getting a bit of sun today. It would be sunnier though if those assholes would stop with the damn chem trails already. :( It looks like a chess board up there today.


How did you connect the element to a power source?

[Eleven11]

Just checked the Home Depot site... wow they got a lot of em. Do you have a link to the one you saw? I haven't seen a cheap stand alone yet.


I saw a remote stand alone thermostat unit at Home Depot a few weeks ago. It had a probe that could be stuck into a crock pot or electric cooker. The power cord for the electric cooker was plugged into the thermostat itself. It looked like a pretty slick little deal and might work to operate your heater.

[commander]

This is the one I saw at our local HD.

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbee ... 7AodiBd8BQ (http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/conversion-kits/tower-kits/A19AAT-2C.shtml?CAWELAID=1068741017&gclid=CK2-geb-u60CFQ4j7AodiBd8BQ)

[Shas]

Not sure what to use for building the thermostat yet.

I'm no plumbing expert,
but our hot tub has an in-line thermostat
(I think it cost us $12 to replace it)
which controls the tank-type water heater.
It looks very simple and is infinitely adjustable.

[foodchain]

@ 245 gallons, that's enough water volume that it will take some time for it to drop off. In mine down here, I would only need to run the heater at night, and let it cool during the day. The day time ambient temps would keep close or higher than that. So no thermostat needed.

[Eleven11]

Here's a video of the comets yesterday as the water reached 65F...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaCT3mqelAc

I'll post one of them today at 78F in a few minutes....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs6fgEAF ... e=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs6fgEAFA6o&feature=youtu.be)


@ 245 gallons, that's enough water volume that it will take some time for it to drop off. In mine down here, I would only need to run the heater at night, and let it cool during the day. The day time ambient temps would keep close or higher than that. So no thermostat needed.

[davidstcldfl]

This is the one I saw at our local HD.

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbee ... 7AodiBd8BQ (http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/conversion-kits/tower-kits/A19AAT-2C.shtml?CAWELAID=1068741017&gclid=CK2-geb-u60CFQ4j7AodiBd8BQ)
This 'manual' one won't work for heaters.....
The A19AAT type thermostats are single-stage cooling controls
with Single-Pole, Single-Throw (SPST) switches that open on temperature drop. ... :?

If you plug in a heater....it'll turn 'off' (opens) at the temperature you set the controller....you want it to turn 'on' at the set point... :(

However, the 'digital' one can be used for cooling and heating... :D
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbee ... tml?bstr=1 (http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/keg-equipment/thermometers/A419ABG-3C___9161.shtml?bstr=1)

see page 4 of the manual...
http://www.beveragefactory.com/images/g ... ABG-3C.pdf (http://www.beveragefactory.com/images/guides/A419ABG-3C.pdf)

[Shas]

Here's a DIY submersible heater I stumbled onto in another forum:

http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/to ... tt-element (http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/diy-heater-submersible-heater-build-your-own-2000-watt-element)

The discussion below this link might be of interest as well;
they talk about using hot-tub thermostats, etc.

[Eleven11]

Good link. I like his design.

Wow 4000 watts... "Holy electric bill, Batman!"




Here's a DIY submersible heater I stumbled onto in another forum:

http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/to ... tt-element (http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/diy-heater-submersible-heater-build-your-own-2000-watt-element)

The discussion below this link might be of interest as well;
they talk about using hot-tub thermostats, etc.

[davidstcldfl]

I think most people are using the smaller elements, which I believe, are 1200 watts. That's enough to load up breaker, especially, since most are likely to use a long extension cord to power it.... :roll:

[Shas]

Yeah, I thought that was an awfully large element as well.
Apparently he could not find smaller elements
that were not made of copper.

It has been brought to my attention that I violated a rule
against posting links to other aquaponics fora.
I didn't mean to offend;
I just saw information pertinent to our discussion
and thought it would be useful to the members here.

Moderators, feel free to delete my post.
I don't understand the reason behind the prohibition,
but my rule-breaking was wholly inadvertent.
Sorry about that.

Shas

[sdanchenko]

This is what I use:
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/1000-wa ... /cp/5F-B1/ (http://www.jefferslivestock.com/1000-watt-water-heater/camid/LIV/cp/5F-B1/)

Is it safe to use that heater in a fish tank? I am thinking of buying 1 or 2 heaters. Also, are you using build-in thermostat or separate thermostat to turn on/off heater?

[davidstcldfl]

sdanchenko, some of the guys here are using that very same heater.

I think it was Jackalope that posted a picture of his heater, some time ago....It was showing signs of the metal breaking down. If it was his picture, he most likely had it running 24/7 because it's so cold where he lives.
I think badflash uses them too...I wonder if his is holding up to being used ?

I have a similar unit I bought at Tractor supply. It shows no break down of the metal....but I only have used it very little, here in central FL.
Because of the cost of an actuall tempt controller for these heaters, I used a heavey duty timer from the home improvement store. I had it 'on' more, the colder it was to get. Took a little practice to get it right.
NOTE: I was just trying to keep the water temp above/at 60 F...so I had a lots of room for error on getting it too hot.

If you want a tempt contoller....go back one page (page 9) and look at my post. There is a link to a digital controller

[sdanchenko]

Does any one have experience with this Aquarium heater: http://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-150W-Watt-Anti-Explosion-Submersible-Aquarium-Fish-Tank-Water-Heater-/130598479801?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6846a7b9#ht_2991wt_1398

One heater per 50Gal fish tank.

[davidstcldfl]

Don't know about that brand...?
If your fish tanks are in a cold basement....the 150 watt, may be barely enough.

[Shas]

I've never heard of that brand,
And I agree, 150w is too small for a 50 gal tank.

Heaters are too important to choose on the basis of purchase price.
A $20 saving can cost you anything
from all of your fish to the shock of your life.
I suggest you use Google to search
"most reliable submersible heater"
or some similar criteria.
I did, and I thought this was an informative response-
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/toppic ... eaters.htm (http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/TPheaters.htm)

Good luck!

[steveconti]

A heater is an object that emits heat or causes another body to achieve a higher temperature. In a household or domestic setting, heaters are usually appliances whose purpose is to generate heating (i.e. warmth). Other types of heaters are Ovens and Furnaces.
__________________________________
gas hot water adelaide (http://www.sahotwater.com.au)

[keith_r]

i'm using 150 watt heaters in my two 55 gallon fry tanks, they've had no problem keeping the tanks at 68-70 in my unheated basement.. even when the pool is at 64, the heaters only light up for a little while at a time..
i've used 1/2" rigid foam insulation to wrap the glass tanks when it's really cold for extended periods

[foodchain]

Why not use a barrel stove and burned the combustable house refuse, junk mail, etc?

Northern tools has a barrel kit for like $30. You can do a dual chamber system to increase heat exchange.

Looking into this myself.

[commander]

Have you considered a rocket stove. I want to incorporate one into my plans. What I really want to do is engineer a hybride model that will work with a wood pellet feeder for continuous operation.

[Shas]

"A heater is an object that emits heat..."

Context is critical.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/termsandtables/g/heater.htm

(edited for clarity)

[Shas]

If you're going to use a wood pellet feeder
you might want to look into burning corn as fuel.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Bi ... 93-023.htm (http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/BioFuel/CornBurn93-023.htm)

http://www.alternativeheatingfuels.com/ ... n-delivery (http://www.alternativeheatingfuels.com/shelled-corn-delivery)

I realise the Pennsylvania retailer is a bit far from you to deliver :=)
I include it as a bit of a guide to price and availability,
and to show that corn is now viewed as a viable fuel.

[Tobiascute]

Infrared heaters have been used widely for generations and are still being used today in many homes and company buildings.

------------------------------------
Reputation Management (http://www.brandvois.com/)|Reputation Management Services (http://www.brandvois.com/)|Remove RipOff Reports (http://www.brandvois.com/remove-ripoff-reports/)

[Shas]

Infrared heaters have been used widely for generations and are still being used today in many homes and company buildings.

True, but IR doesn't heat air, only objects.
In offices with ceiling-mounted IR heaters
the workers have chronically cold legs
because the IR doesn't penetrate the desk top.

Does IR heat water?
I don't know.
If not, it would have to be used to heat an object
(such as a pipe) in the water...

[foodchain]

ooooh....I have never heard of these things. If it heats an object, and the water passes over it cooling it.....how effecient do they work? Running pex through my attic has been my best heater heat....and dirt cheap too.

[Eleven11]

Are you heating the attic or collecting heat from the on sunny days? How do you have it set up?


ooooh....I have never heard of these things. If it heats an object, and the water passes over it cooling it.....how effecient do they work? Running pex through my attic has been my best heater heat....and dirt cheap too.

[foodchain]

Not sure your climate is hot enough. But in TX we routinely carry over 100, often 110 for about 3 months straight.
My water main failed where it mated up to my slab foundation. My trusted plumber looked at the new tile I laid throughout the house and opted to run it up through the wall and into the attic. Going with pex. Then back down through the walls to tie back into all the fixtures.
Added surprise when I turned on the outdoor hose bib and searing hot water came out for about 15 minutes. Now why did it do that? I scratched my head for a while, never did that before.....the heat down here collected in the attic, and even though I have a mature pecan tree canopy over house, you can literally fry an egg on the pavement. My son did it last summer during the drought.
My house gas bill now is about $8/month.

[Shas]

Running pex through my attic has been my best heater heat

No doubt about it.
Although running your COLD water lines up there
might mean that you cool your drinking water in the refrigerator!

I'm wishing I had laid a roll of pex
inside the masonry of my big chimney when I built it.
Hindsight sucks.

[commander]

I am seriously considering this as one of my spring projects. We do have some really cold days in the winter so I may add the means to bypass and drain the attic lines when we are expecting long spells of really cold weather.

[Shas]

Why would you do that, Commander?
Even in a cold spell the attic is likely the warmest part of your house, isn't it?
I'd have thought that that's when an attic coil would be the most beneficial.
Or am I missing something (again)?

[commander]

Our house is heavily insulated. I have been in the attic when it is below freezing and the attic is just as cold as the outside air. Two or three days of subzero weather could freeze the water supply to the water heater. I am thinking of adding valves to the supply side of the water heater that would shunt the incoming water through the pex in the attic when the weather is warm to act as a pre heater but could be shut off and drained when the weather turns really cold.

[Shas]

Wow.
That's well insulated.
Maybe you can suck a quart of vodka through the pipe
with your shop vac, too,
to remove water pockets in your pipe.

[commander]

Wow.
That's well insulated.
Maybe you can suck a quart of vodka through the pipe
with your shop vac, too,
to remove water pockets in your pipe.


Waste of good vodka when I can simple apply a little air pressure and blow it out.

[Shas]

Waste of good vodka when I can simple apply a little air pressure and blow it out.

Well, for crying out loud, Commander,
it never occurred to me that you would WASTE it!
Just suck it through your pipes before drinking it!
:(

[foodchain]

Remember to keep the pex accessible. It's not supposed to leak....but everything needs attention sooner or later.
PEX has me sold though. Next house will use the same concept for geothermal......using the earth as one giant heat sink.....A bit out of budget right now. But the pex makes a profound difference.

[commander]

Well, for crying out loud, Commander,
it never occurred to me that you would WASTE it!
Just suck it through your pipes before drinking it!
:([/quote]

Damn, I need to start thinking outside the box a little more.

[zenel]

Hi there, i am here looking to install solar water heater at my home. Please anyone here can suggest me average cost of solar heater.

[Bioritize]

It depends on the size of the system but most of them run from 8,000 to 14,000 installed. If you DIY it is much cheaper.

[mini00]

solar heaters are very useful as compared to electric ones.

[tmcmaster]

Bad Idea, but a waterbed heater works great. Real cheap on ebay. 300 watts for around $15.

Could you mount it on the side of a larger tank?

[Jason]

Waterbed heaters are designed to lay flat under the bed. The ones I had way back did not attach in any way, so you would need to find a way to attach it. There might be simpler solutions then going with a waterbed heater.4

Jason

[tmcmaster]

Waterbed heaters are designed to lay flat under the bed. The ones I had way back did not attach in any way, so you would need to find a way to attach it. There might be simpler solutions then going with a waterbed heater.4

Jason


I was honestly thinking duct tape or hot glue on the outside of the tank. I found one at a cheap price on EBay, so once I get it, and test it, I can post results.

[calliejhon]

he guys in my location that are dropping 10k at a time on the hydroponics stores are all raising pot. i recogniseof no different crop in CA with a purpose to pay for the heating, lighting fixtures, pumps, RO, dehumidifiers, chemical compounds, fish meals, and many others. (no i do not boost pot) definitely $three in line with pound talapia and multiple heads of lettuce does not.