home grown

[stucco]

I’m sure glad I decided to grow my own! http://www.doh.state.fl.us/floridafisha ... ochure.pdf (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/floridafishadvice/Final%202009%20Fish%20Brochure.pdf)
http://news.discovery.com/animals/more- ... in-us.html (http://news.discovery.com/animals/more-hermaphrodite-fish-in-us.html)
I come from a long line of fishermen/people. There are fish on table 2 and 3 of the consumption advisory that I’ve eaten my entire life, Sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. That concerns me a bit.

[jackalope]

I’m sure glad I decided to grow my own! http://www.doh.state.fl.us/floridafisha ... ochure.pdf (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/floridafishadvice/Final%202009%20Fish%20Brochure.pdf)
http://news.discovery.com/animals/more- ... in-us.html (http://news.discovery.com/animals/more-hermaphrodite-fish-in-us.html)
I come from a long line of fishermen/people. There are fish on table 2 and 3 of the consumption advisory that I’ve eaten my entire life, Sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. That concerns me a bit.

Thanks for posting those links ..... good info to know :o :o

[badflash]

These guys are more mixed up than the fish. Many species from guppies to tilapia to alligators have their sexes determined not just by genetics, but also by temperature and other environmental factors. Colder temps in many species favor females, higher temps favor males. At 96F the fry that survive a month will be 95% male. Alligators do the same thing as do many species of snake.

I ended up with 23 female corn snakes when I didn't keep the temps at optimal.

Don't sweat it, but eat less soy. The stuff is loaded with estrogen.

[stucco]

Yea man, I hear you on the soy. It wasn’t so much the he/ she fish as it was the pesticide, mercury, dioxin and PCBs in the consumption advisory.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-FZsys ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-FZsysQNw&feature=related)
:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYp0jEZ3 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYp0jEZ3HJg&feature=related)
:cry:

[jackalope]

Yea man, I hear you on the soy. It wasn’t so much the he/ she fish as it was the pesticide, mercury, dioxin and PCBs in the consumption advisory.
That was what I was looking at too!

[badflash]

If they end up with extra heads, tails or fins, I'd worry. Sex is no big deal in the non-mamal world.

[stucco]

:lol:

[stucco]

So just so I'm straight-Your opinion is that hemaphrodite fish are a naural product of environmental factors such as temperature and nothing to be worried about? It is my understanding that hemaphroditism is a result of a combination of significant changes in the environment which result not just in the sex of a species (which as you say- and I agree- can be determined in certain species by temperature or other natural facors), but genetic changes which are influenced by chemical sensitivities (PCBs, mercury, dioxin, pesticides) and result in malformations of a particular inhabitant. The result in this case is true hemaphroditism, which means they have both male and female sex organs. This is not ananomoly, rather it has been an increasingly studied scientific and genetic problem that is being linked to our society's industrial off waste. The question of how these things affect us, more than minimizing our ability to consume a great natural resource due to mercury or other toxins which harm humans, is exasperated by the need for scientific data which can help us understand what will eventually occur with each species and whether they will be able to overcome these detrimental environmental factors that we have placed on them.

[badflash]

No, not exactly what I am saying. High temperatures have been shown to produce large populations of male fish, but with female parts as well. Many fish can be sex reversed my a number of means. Something that is far more likely is herbicides that are already implicated in the drastic drop in amphibian and invertebrate populations in the East. Cause and effect has at least been established in the lab and it isn't conjecture passing as science because it came from a scientist.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11960004

Heavy metals are bad, but they are unlikely to cause this. Concentrations high enough to cause genetic defects would kill the fish, not produce a high concentration of fish with both body parts.

It is tough to sort out the junk science from the real. The newest junk science threat is to propose that some substance that "could" come from something essential to industrialized civilization is causing great harm but that the concentrations that are causing this are too low to measure in the environment, but they build up over time. Or maybe the concentration is going up rapidly, but the raw data to support the trend is found tainted or lost. Of course, the only way to get rid of the treat is to destroy the industry that produces it. Also keep in mind that when the same substance is found in the environment in a 3rd world nation, no increase in the perceived problem is found and of course, no accord will be struck to reduce their pollution.

Key points in real science is that you
Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment (which is repeatable by others)
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results

Current sensational media science is:
Construct a Hypothesis
Do Background Research to select only data that supports the hypothesis
Cook the data for a better fit
Make up a story about how this will end life as we know it
Communicate Your Results to the media

[stucco]

It is obvious that you have a lot of knowledge regarding scientific factors. I am not discounting that there is a place for science and that, as a whole, it is imparshal, because we all know that just as everyone has an opinion, science can be skewed, numbers can be skewed, and you are right- only a good study of factors involved that is done repetitively- with the same end product- is one which should be given merit.
However, as I said, I do believe that there are industrial chemicals which impact enviromental factors for which we do not yet know the extent of their relevance for the future of our food. We continually move forward in the world of science- sometimes with ill regard to these impacts. My wife studied and recieved her degree in Biological Sciences, both human and environmental, many years ago and has kept up with these issues over the years. I appreciate your view that hard science must be seperated from the junk, but simialar to a scientist- even a layman can see changes in the environment, good and bad, over the years if you live in any area long enough. We, as Florida residents, have for a long time watched changes in our area. My original comment was based on the State of Florida Consumption Advisory which details our areas water quality and known factors relating to our local fish populations as it relates to consuption. The changes that have occured over time have reduced our ability to consume fish on a consistant basis. Many advisories that applied to a pregnant woman's consumption- now apply to any individual, advisories that once were limited to certain species have been extended to many others, there are now a list of fish which are labled- Do Not Consume. I have personally caught fish which are diseased, have sores, or other deformaties. Although this may seem on the whole to be unrelated, I believe that water quality has a lot to do with it.

[jackalope]

We used to have a friend who fished in Medical Lake, Wa. It was always rumored that people were finding medicinal trophys while fishing in the lake, since it is located next to a hospital for the criminally insane. Sure enough, one day he caught a body part (leg), and when reporting the incident, the police just told him it was a normal occurrence and not to worry about it. You can say all you want, but I would NEVER eat anything out of that lake ..... I value my life and health too much. The government has always minimized the effects of the poisons in our public waters, especially if they are caused by a governmental agency, I see no reason to trust them now ..... pollution is not good, even if it is recycled by fish .... that's why I'm raising my own fish! If I lived in Florida, I, too would be concerned about mercury in the waters, and I wouldn't be waiting to find "extra heads, tails or fins" to start worrying!
Just my 2 centavos ......

[badflash]

Much of what Florida is seeing is caused by over population. The aquifers are being used up at an alarming rate and runoff from sewerage is to blame for much of it. I think lack of water is going to be the next big crisis.

Here in NY GE was to blame for dumping used transformer oil into the Hudson. That oil was load with PCB's. The state & feds were able to get them to stop, but never got them to pay for the cleanup down river. The PCB's primarily effected fish and animals that were bottom feeders or ate bottom feeders. Crabs, eels, striped bass had a don't eat advisory for years. Now 20 years later the PCB's seem to have cleaned themselves up. I read a report that some sort of naturally occurring microbe was eating them. The Hudson is now clean enough to swim in, fish in and is the major source of drinking water for cities up & down the Hudson.

The old time pollution that was big in the 50's and 60's is pretty much stopped. The fines and enforcement is prohibitive.

[jackalope]

I still wouldn't trust the water ... or the fish either!

[badflash]

I wouldn't either. My point is that it is all too easy to point the finger at commercial sources of pollution, when it is actually US that is the bigger problem. We like to point the finger at others, but not step up when the real issue is exposed.

The link below tells a story many of us forget, but as a senior in an Ohio high school I remmber the story clearly:
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01 ... y_beh.html (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/after_the_flames_the_story_beh.html)

You'd be hard pressed to find inductrial polluters with illegal discharges any more, thank goodness, but any trip down any river will find homes and municipalities dumping sewerage into the waterways. Yep, homegrown food is the safest way to go.

[TCLynx]

Well Florida does have issues with the government allowing certain industries to get permits to dump some things in rivers. Dioxin laden waters producing what they were calling bearded lady fish but of course that story probably had lots of spin for both angles.

In any case, growing your own is a good idea where possible.

Yes, here in FL we are overpopulated and there are far too many communities that require people to maintain the silly landscaping that was installed by the developers so the runoff from the over fertilized lawns is bad for the surface waters and everyone pumping tons of water out of the aquifers to water those lawns is bad for the aquifers. And then there is everyone using flush toilets dozens of times a day!!!!! (if you can't tell, I'm a firm supporter of humanure composting.) Simply flushing stuff away doesn't send it away, it simply sends it back to the drinking water supplies hoping that dilution will take care of the pollution. Well my friends, there are too many people on the planet now for dilution to really work so well anymore.