System Stuck....need to know why?

[foodchain]

Okay.
I am stuck.
Based on advice here, when I chose to downsize my system I gutted everything out and went with (6) 3/4" constant flow siphons, one to each 1/2 barrel. They fill from an elevated 275 gallon IBC via gravity 3/4" lines with 1/4 turn ball valves to adjust flow as needed. They fill very slowly. The siphon engages but doesn't release. So instead of ebb and flow I have trickle in and trickle out constantly.
What gives?

[foodchain]

IF a pic will help I can get one, but can't figure out how to upload. IF someone will post it here I can email it. Thanks in advance.
I have spent a small fortune building this, and I am more than put out that it's not cycling.
***update***
Just went out and fiddled with it some more. I can get the siphon to start and stop now. BUT not at the same time it's trying to fill. I have to trickle it till full then the siphon engages and drains. It's supposed to stop about 2 inches from bottom, and instead stops at about 4 inches. I was able to get pics of exactly what is happening. IF I open the ball valve, it fills fine when siphon is "OFF", but the match each other on flow rate seemingly when "ON".
Also, when all (6) half barrels are "on" with the ball valves, each barrel fills at a different rate, and not in sequential order like you would expect from the closest filling first. Instead it's a more random rate which makes no sense. Adjusting the ball valve helps to minimize this, but then creates problems with the siphon side.

I REALLY need help with this. Constant flow siphons seem to be good on paper but am starting to think crap in application.

[jvision]

Dose the return (where it enters the sump/FT) stay submerged? In my system, the siphon won't release until enough water has left the FT, back into the other GBs - they have to be out of the water in my system. Could that be the case?

For posting pics, I upload them to Photobucket.com, them paste the [IMG] tag here - no resizing or anything.

[foodchain]

I have disengaged it completely from the sump. The 3/4 inch discharge dumps into 2" line, which temporarily flows into a gutter and into the yard. Garden hose fills the IBC for now. So there's plenty of air to break the siphon where it dumps into the 2" line. The purpose of the air gap here is to function as a gas exchanger.

What is Photobucket?

A pic to show how each barrel works, from the flow in, to the flow out. Each one of the 6 is identical.

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4855&stc=1

This pic shows the water level when the siphon stops. It's not supposed to stop for at least another 1-2 inches lower. EVERY barrel half stops at this point.

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4856&stc=1

Picture of all 6 beds with 3/4" fill lines and ball valves. Volume tank and sump barrel are behind me when I took the picture.

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4857&stc=1

This shows the general concept of how it all works.

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4858&stc=1

[jvision]

Photobucket is a site to upload your pics to - it's got a huge amount of space for FREE!! I'm pretty sure they own your content once you load it, so I only load stuff that's meant for online use. Once you upload your pic, click the pic, then on the right side of the screen, it gives you 4 options for sharing - use the one that starts with [IMG] for this site.

[jvision]

I wouldn't worry about what order your barrels fill and drain in... I gave up on my system. Even with fiddling every day for a week, I couldn't get my system to be consistent. Some of my GBs fill in 8 minutes, some in 15... I just try to adjust what grows in each bed - stuff that doesn't like being wet goes in the beds that take longer to fill.
If you can figure out how to post pics of your system, it might help.

[foodchain]

Look, I don't care so much what order...so long as they cycle properly. Photo bucket isn't working. This new version of this site is killing me too.
It's starting to look like the drains aren't big enough.

[JCO]

As for the filling rate, you can control that with the separate shutoffs on each outlet.

Now as to your siphons, if I am seeing them correctly, they seem to be a "T" elbowed toward the bottom of the tank with two open ends at the bottom. Too much open end causes loss of suction too quick. Do away with the "T" and make it an inverted "U" with the open end of the drain a distance from the bottom of the tank of about 1/2 inch, no more.


This new version of this site is killing me too.

Sorry about what the new owner has done. I had purchased this software a number of years ago thinking I would update but decided against it as it didn't seem to have the personal community feel to it as the what I had been using since day one. Sorry.

Hope my suggestion helped.

JCO

[foodchain]

JCO: Currently the drain is a capital M with the drain coming out the middle leg of the M and the two longer legs nearly touching the bottom. It's not possible to make it a U and connect to the discharge line. In the pictures you should be able to see that each barrel has it's own ball valve. I have kicked this around in my head all day.
***update***Okay JCO, I reread what you wrote and this makes better sense now. I will build ONE barrel your way, and see if it works. Then copy to the rest if it does. Too expense to build them all without testing...LOL.

And there's only two ways to fix this if I am right. 1) reduce the valves down to reduce flow to barrels. Each one will have to be adjusted manually and will be different. This will prolong the cycle of each barrel to nearly 15-20 minutes or more per barrel.

Or 2) Enlarge the discharge lines to 1" and a 3" graded line to carry to sump. This is going to SUCK as I just bought all the damn PVC and lines which was over $100 in 3/4" and 2". I don't even want to know what it will cost in 1" and 3" and fittings.

IF I am right, with either of the above solutions I will let you all know.

IF the cycle times end up being further apart, than I just have to adjust what I grow I guess.

[foodchain]

Okay. So I just got another piece of information that is pretty important. The flood cycle is supposed to be 1:3 ratio to the drain cycle.

IF that rule of thumb is accurate, then simply reducing each of the 1/4 turn valves, and leaving the drain line plumbing intact where it is should work just fine. Then once it's at least cycling properly then I can increase/decrease the valves as needed following the above rule of thumb.

And further research in other forums, seems to support JCO's comment above. Tomorrow is going to be interesting as I exercise some trial and error.

[Apollo]

Hey, the main reason your pipe siphons are not working has to do with the dumping into the 3" pipe. The height at where they fire can be adjusted by making the center pipe longer to fill your GB more.

You need to rework just one pipe siphon to get the right height first, then move on from there. The pipe siphon exist to the 3" pipe will not work because...it always need to be out of the water to gulp air in order to reset the cycle. Your 90 degree down angle going into the 3" pipe needs to be turned to the right about 90+ degrees. In order to create enough water resistance to completely fill the pipe and fire the siphon.

Instead of a 3" pipe I would try a large rain gutter or some other type of open gutter. Your pump needs to puts out enough water to fill all GB's at the same time and still return about 1/3 to 1/2 of the water output back the to FT or sump as splash down.

It doesn't matter if they all fire at differ times...better if they don't, try for a 8 minute fill with a 4 minute drain. Once you get your center pipe the right height at the 8 min. fill & 4 min. drain. Then do #2, the more GB's you bring online the more water will be diverted from your splash down to your GB's. Repeat #3 and so on.

You can call me on my cell phone I'm on Verizon, it will not cost me anything or I can call you on my land line...I got free long distance.

Your so close, HANG IN THERE!!!!!!!!!!!! Apollo

[Apollo]

Note! Your fill & drain time will double if your barrows do not have media in them, so concentrate more on fill height and getting them to cycle. Once that is completed, then fill with media and adjust flow to achieve your 8 minutes to fill and 4 minutes to drain. Apollo

[foodchain]

It's not a 3" pipe, that's a two inch.
The fill height is not shown in pics. The siphons peak out at 2 inches below the surface edge of barrel. So the head pressure from the water volume in barrel initiates the siphon.
I will make one siphon the inverted U today as suggested, on one barrel and check results. I shut the system down last night with all barrels full. So will have to drain one.
Good point on the media.

Grow beds are filled by gravity. That's the reason why the IBC is elevated, it produces head pressure. As long as there's enough head pressure I have no problem filling the beds. I resolved this initial problem yesterday by adding a pipe to the intake so that it siphons from the IBC at greater depth. This allows for greater swing in water height in the IBC. When the sump is actually connected and in use, this won't be a problem.

I am on my way out the door now to start cycling again.
Thank you.

****Update****The U adjustment made no difference. U or M both are not working, and exhibiting the same symptoms. NOT cycling on and off the way they should.

[Apollo]

Here are my thoughts;

1. All your barrels will break siphon at that point because that is the point of equal pressure, if you siphon from a bucket once you lift the end of the hose to the height of the water in the bucket the siphon stops. This is not a bad thing, water is still being circulated from the bottom of your GB's, you'll always have some water remaining in your GB's. As an emergency water source for worms, long roots and as a wicker effect.

2. Your pipe siphon will not "fire" without adequate water volume...you might have to increase you rate of flow. Or build your pipe siphon out of 1/2" PVC. I would work on more water volume, not sure how long it takes for your barrels to fill. To much time may leave your plants out of water to long, with some water remaining in your GB it helps in decreasing your refill time.

3. Where the water meets the return pipe to the sump is where most of your problems lie. You have your 90 elbow going straight down. This needs to be turn 90+ degrees to the right. By angling it slightly upward you create back pressure in the water flow leaving your GB, this will cause the pipe siphon to "fire".

4. That last 90 elbow must never be completely under water...it needs to allow air to move back to the pipe siphon in order to break the siphon. It may take several air glops to break siphon. Think of it this way...back to siphoning water from a bucket with a hose. In order to break the siphon air has to enter the hose from either end, this air breaks the siphon in the hose and water will drain out of the hose.

5. I would like you to try this; take 1 barrel, take the 90 out of the 2" pipe , turn it to the right 90+ increase this angle if the pipe siphon falls to "fire" after it starts to cycle (it should take a minute or so). Make sure you have enough water volume entering your GB to fill it in about 8 minutes, from where it normally breaks siphon, (not totally empty).

I take it that you have no swirl filler in your system, media, water and barrels look real dirty.

Check out "Hello from Phoenix AZ..." he's using the 1/2 barrels, just a thought.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________
I HAVE NOT FAILED. I'VE JUST FOUND 10,000 WAYS THAT WON'T WORK. Thomas A Edison

[foodchain]

Okay. Lot's of trial and error all day. Learned a lot on how things work, but not much on why they don't. Phone conversation with Apollo has me trying something tomorrow. I will update it once I find out results.

The idea of using the letter N design instead of M only partially resolved some issues. And created others.

In the morning I will remove the 2" pipe, replace with gutter and try apollo's idea of turning last 90 elbow parallel to the ground.

Barrels are dirty due to taking two years to build this nightmare of a project. Cleaning as I go.

[foodchain]

Okay. I removed the 2" return pipe to sump, and replaced with a graded 6" plastic gutter. I then reinstalled the M fittings in 4 of the barrels. And turned the 90 degree elbows from everything from straight down all the way to straight up, and everything in between. The result, much better gas exchange on the gutter, but the siphons still do NOT fire. I have attached pics below to see exactly what is what.
What happens:
The siphon starts as the barrels reach their "full" point, the siphon starts, but doesn't disengage. Current theory is that I am adding too much water flow into the barrel. With no media, it sounds like I am supposed to be taking 16 minutes to fill each one. So now I am going back out to isolate ONE barrel, empty it as far as it will go and watch the clock to monitor the fill rate. Then turn 90 elbow parallel to the gutter and see what happens.

***update***
I adjusted the intake flow from 10 minutes all the way out to 35 to fill. No change. Waste of time.

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4869&stc=1http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4870&stc=1

[foodchain]

Okay, so pics are sideways. Humor me, and turn your head. You can see different 90's at different angles. In the middle barrel, you will see that the discharge flow matches the intake flow. This drains the barrel but never releases to allow a complete refill.

If anyone has input, please chime in.
I am running out of days to resolve this. Tomorrow is the last full day I have to get this right. Otherwise it goes to sitting until I have time again.

[foodchain]

OK. 2 more pics. In these pics I rebuilt the M piping w/ 1/2 inch connecting to 3/4 for the rest of the discharge pipe.
.....NO.....
This didn't work either. Note the flow out matches the flow in. Increasing the flow, is easily done by opening and closing valves...the result though is that the discharge line's flow increases are decreases to match the intake flow. Same result regardless of the amount of water coming in. Just changes how fast it happens.

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4871&stc=1http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4872&stc=1

[foodchain]

Next up for tomorrow morning.....wrip out the M in 1/2 inch, and convert to N and reconnect. Cycle it that way on just one barrel.

To say I am frustrated is an understatement.

I am considering tearing down and selling this stuff off. I have been fighting with this every day for a week, all day...and am no closer to resolving. I am putting a cut off date on the calendar. If I do not have resolved by that date, it's all going to be sold or taken to the landfill. If anyone is interested, let me know. Ideally, this stupid thing will work. But I have other responsibilities that are being neglected so that this "simple" design could be installed.

[foodchain]

Perhaps the problem is the N, or M needs to be done in 1" instead of the 1/2 or 3/4" pvc. Since it's filling with 3/4" lines. This would allow it to drain a lot faster, and there wouldn't be enough water coming in fast enough to keep the siphon flowing, thereby allowing it to release and the barrel to refill.

To make this adjustment though I have to do 2 things. 1) Spend more money on a wing and prayer chance. 2) Ruin one of the threaded bung hold plugs that I have drilled the center out for the 3/4" pipe. You can always go bigger, but not smaller. So IF I drill it out, and it doesn't work. I am screwed.

Does anyone have any advice? Anyone? Please explain to me why this isn't working.

[Apollo]

In your last picture it appears to me that the pipe leaving the M and going to the gutter is at an uphill angle. It needs to be running down hill all the way.

Have you increased the water flow in the GB to the point of almost overflowing your GB? I still think you need more flow into, maybe a longer center stand pipe & a downward run from your M all the way to your gutter.

One of the way to achieve is to come off the center tee on your M with a 45<, a longer run to the end of your GB, all at a 45 degree angle. Your siphons "fire" by the use of gravity...a longer run would increase your chances.

Before you scrape everything I would also try running the stand pipe on the M straight down & out the bottom of your GB. Than a 90< to your gutter, make sure that your tail pipe still runs downhill and a 90< on the end of the discharge pipe. Keep a 90< on the gutter end, turned at a slight upward angle.

Don't forget about increasing your water flow into your GB's...as long as it works without overflowing it !

[jvision]

I've been out of town for a couple days, so this is the first chance I'm getting a look at everything. My system is all 1" pipe - some of them are angled into the FT, some are reduced to 3/4", and all seem to work OK.

Here's a pic of how mine are set up - just a U siphon.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/MillerJason/Mobile%20Uploads/915BA63A-68F2-4F7B-9BF5-6CFFD6553EA7_zpsunusmenb.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/MillerJason/media/Mobile%20Uploads/915BA63A-68F2-4F7B-9BF5-6CFFD6553EA7_zpsunusmenb.jpg.html)

Both of the drain lines on these GBs are 1" - the one with media has a 45* angle into the FT, the other has a 90* The only time the siphons will break is when they're completely out of the water.

The water level in the FT fluctuates around 3", the longest the GBs go between cycles is about 15min.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/MillerJason/Mobile%20Uploads/179A7B9B-45AD-43E0-938F-757E57B52F57_zpst8ci3wae.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/MillerJason/media/Mobile%20Uploads/179A7B9B-45AD-43E0-938F-757E57B52F57_zpst8ci3wae.jpg.html)

[foodchain]

As I noted above, increasing flow only resulted in the fill time getting as low as 10 minutes. However, the drain simply accounts for this by increasing discharge to match the flow, though the reaction is a bit delayed.

Increasing flow, and reducing the M to 1/2 inch, simply increased how much faster the barrel filled, and dramatically reduced how fast it drained. This makes the barrel over fill, and if no action is taken overflows.

jvision --am I understanding then that you are filling with a 1 inch reduced to 3/4, and draining with a 1 inch? I am starting to think that this is where my error is. Filling and draining with 3/4 just isn't working, even with ball valves on each barrel, I simply am unable to match what is needed.

If it drains faster, the suction will break in time due to lack of water not filling the pipe. A 1" pipe will take more water to start siphon, there by requiring the water level to be higher in the barrel before starting. Okay, that sounds more like of what I am needing. Looks like I am going to have sacrifice one barrel plug, and make yet another hardware store run for the 1 inch parts. I will start this time with a simple loop or N. And then convert to the M and compare the differences.

[foodchain]

None of the drains are running up hill. Except at last 90, where it can be adjusted to the various angles.

[jvision]

Here's a pic that better shows how it's all set up - the u-siphon drain is surrounded by weeping tile to keep media from being sucked up. Each supply line has a ball valve - each of them are set to less than 1/2 open. Drain lines are 1" pipe as well, but have some way of choking them off a bit to help start the siphon - 3 of them are reduced to 3/4" BELOW the GB, and 2 have a 90* or 45* elbow to cause a bit of restriction.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/MillerJason/IMG_20150221_125858_zpsvnzlnwu8.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/MillerJason/media/IMG_20150221_125858_zpsvnzlnwu8.jpg.html)

[jvision]

BTW, this is as full as this system gets - the siphon engages before getting more than 1/2 way up the U

[Apollo]

Have you check out Wolfracer's System Build (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?58-Wolfracer-s-System-Build), this looks like it should work with your barrel setup.

Good luck...wish I lived closer to you I would give you a hand.

[foodchain]

Just returned from the hardware store. I will start assembling a 1" loop siphon. W/out glue. The basic loop and the M loop will be tested on the same barrel so as to only carve up one bung plug. I will post and pics when test is complete.

[foodchain]

1" doesn't work either. It will fire in either N or M configuration, but will not stop simply reduces flow to match intake flow. It doesn't matter if intake is wide open or a stream no bigger than that of a straw.

Running drain pipe up hill or down hill doesn't make a difference.

End 90 from straight down to straight up, and every angle in between makes no difference.

Adding pipe to the end of the 90 makes no difference, except in the height of the water in the grow bed when it starts.

My system matches apollo's design, and doesn't work. I mirrored the example above and doesn't work. The only difference is that mine comes out the side of the tub, and the example comes out the bottom.
And if that's the problem, than I quit. I built this whole damn thing around that option. And was assured it wouldn't matter.

AND now, sump has over flowed and I have 1,000 gallons in my back yard.

[foodchain]

Ok, so it's official constant flow siphons suck, bell siphons suck. What's the next option?

[foodchain]

YEAH!!!!

I have figured out the problem. Now I don't have a solution. BUT I know what the problem is.

The loop siphon works GREAT, if you go out the bottom of the GB, and not out the side. Going out the side is guaranteed failure. Look over the last few pages....this is something I know a little bit about.

So....what do I do now?

[JCO]

Your drain pipe should always be big enough to be able to empty the grow bed at least 1 1/2 to 2 times faster than what your input in volume coming in can fill it. Going smaller is going in the wrong direction. In all actuality, you can't make your drain pipe too big because it's all in accordance to how quickly you want to empty the grow bed. Make sure the open end of the "U" siphon is about 1/2 inch from the bottom and absolutely level and parallel to the bottom of the grow bed. In the case of a rounded bottom grow bed, you will have to adjust accordingly because that's what caused the suction to break. I hope this helps. Sit down, kick back and pop a cool one for me.

[foodchain]

I have had a major break through tonight. I will tweak it a little come Sunday and see if lightening can strike twice.

And just in time, I have to put this project down now till Sunday, and then can only work on it briefly Sunday as new job Monday.

I will get pics once I have worked this out.
The problem was not the loop siphon, the N, or the M, the flow, or fall or anything else. It was simply that I was draining through the bung hole, and not through the bottom of the barrel. This prevents there from being enough head pressure to engage and disengage.

No clear pics/tutorials/advice via google on how to make a siphon work from the hole in the half barrel. And running through the bottom is not an option.
So I built a siphon of my own design, and it worked on the very last cycle tonight. Let's pray it's not a one time deal.

[jvision]

Did you get a chance to work on it, yesterday? How'd it work out?

[foodchain]

I have one pipe/barrel combination working. My time to work on this is extremely limited now, that's why I was begging for input early on. I had a limited amount of time to resolve the issues.
I DID fix one barrel. I will repeat the design on the other 5.

[jvision]

Good luck!

[Oliver]

I've been offline for a while so I am just now looking at this thread.

I quickly read through the post so I may have missed something.

From your pictures it appears you are using loop siphons, which is all we now use here.

The problem with the siphons not working properly appears, from the pictures, to be that you do not have the bottom of the outside siphon drain set to a low enough level. The bottom of the siphon drain pipes need to be at least 6 inches below the expected siphon break point. This will allow enough gravity down pull on the water having to go up and over the top of the loop (or bell stand pipe) to allow for continued draining until the siphon breaks. Too short of a down pipe, be it loop or bell siphon, will cause the problem you are experiencing.

Your fill times should always be longer than your drain times by 10% or more, but not 3:1 or 1:3.

The way to test your expected full cycle time is to flood your grow bed until it starts to siphon, shut off the incoming water and time the siphon drain until it breaks. This is the unencumbered drain time or UDT. Multiply the UDT by 4 and that will be the minimum possible full cycle time. Actual full cycle full time will be slightly longer than 4 times the UDT with flood and drain times each being about twice the UDT. Again, flood times will be slightly longer than twice the UDT and drain times being slightly less twice the UDT.

Oliver

[SimonB]

Hi,
I don't hang here as much as i used to since i have no place in my current apartment for a system but it is nice to check in every now and then and see what is happening!
I have a quickfix for you that is easily checked!
Ditch the internal system, keep the horizontal line in the bottom (need to drill a few holes in it to make it work as a drain) then install the bends as shown with the red line in the pic below. this way you will have an upside down U that will empty your system when the level in the bed exceeds the level in the bend.
I have the same design on my system, only with clear hose instead of PVC pipe and it works without problem.
br,
simon

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4873&stc=1

[Apollo]

Was just wondering if you ever got it working...it looks like your using the "Pipe Siphon". At the tail end of you drain pipe you have a 90 angle going straight down into your return pipe to your sump or fish tank. If your siphon "Fires" but doesn't reset after the GB has drained, this is where mine is different from your set-up. I'm not tiring to drain into a pipe but straight to my fish tank. I think that your last 90 needs to be turned up just about 50 degrees from pointing straight down.

Maybe you could use a rain gutter as a return pipe back to your sump or fish tank.