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semi
06-24-2014, 09:35 AM
I have had 3 goldfish die after a 3" hybrid bluegill died over the past three days. In my 150 gallon ft, ph is up to 8.7! Amm =.3, nitrites=0, nitrates=40 temp at 76f. Could not see anything on the bluegill unusual, but the goldfish have patches of missing scales. The gf are laying low mostly and when they move, they slightly slurp at the surface. That might be a response to seeing me and expecting food.
I followed some advice on cleaning airstones by soaking in hydrogen peroxide just before this trouble began. I soaked 2 of my four airstones then ran air through them in a glass of tap water before returning them to the tank. Would the hydrogen peroxide even in the most diluted form cause so much trouble? I also pulled and cleaned the pump and hoses at the same time 4 days ago. Did my actions bring too much stress? Their bellies are slightly bloated. When they die, they dont go belly up, just laying sideways. I cooked and added some peas and brocolli today in case they are constipated. I might have also,been overfeeding :oops:
Any input will help, thanks in advance :(

davidstcldfl
06-24-2014, 03:44 PM
Sorry to hear that Semi.. :(

What was your PH before this happened..?

semi
06-24-2014, 05:06 PM
ph has been high 7's since I started in early April.

semi
06-24-2014, 05:25 PM
I have lost over the previous 3 months 3 channel cats and five goldfish at a rate of about one every or every other week. These 4 died within three days of cleaning half my airstones. Iwas being patient about the ph, figuring it would drop eventually. The spike may be from the dead fish, too. Plants are thriving. I put 5 gallons of well water in per week to keep up with evaporation, after letting it sit a few hours. So, hydrogen peroxide isnt necessarily the problem? It would have been highly diluted except for the aerated water from above those two airstones.

Apollo
06-24-2014, 08:30 PM
Did your system ever cycle in? (PH will start dropping to the point where you would need to buffer it back up).

I think it's directly related to your PH levels being high. What the PH of your well water?

Back off on feeding, maybe start water exchanges if your well water has a lower PH level.

semi
06-24-2014, 08:45 PM
I have backed off on feeding. I will check the well water ph in the am. I may be guilty of pressing on before a full cycling was reached. Should I be adding bacteria still? I did start with some water and four small sponges from a friends established ap tank, added more bacteria and waited 3 weeks before introducing fish. My amm/n3/n4 levels were borderline acceptable, then. Ph was low 7s consistently, then. I will also nuke, peel, crumble some eggshells into a nylon stocking to hang in a GB water outlet to bring ph down. Ph of 8.7 sure cant help things and waiting for it to self heal is dumb. Thanks for the nudge:-)

Apollo
06-24-2014, 09:01 PM
I may be wrong, but egg shell are only used to stop the PH from going to low.

I only used my 19 cent feeder gold fishes when I cycled my 850 gal tank, I added nothing. It did take several months before it cycled, my PH got up to 8.4. Once it started dropping it got down to 7 before I added the egg shells which brought it back up to 7.6 to 7.8 and stayed there for a long time.

semi
06-24-2014, 09:17 PM
hmmm, okay. I might be remembering that youtube vid incorrectly. I'll take your word for it though and not do it. I still need to research and use a natural ph down solution,tho. Thanks for the correction Apollo.

topz
06-24-2014, 10:59 PM
Sorry to hear about the fish man it's rough.

shells will raise the ph so avoid them. Hydrogen peroxide should hurt your fish I've used it in certain instances directly in the water. Did you do anything other then put make up water in the tank. Any additives? What type of media is in the grow beds? How many total fish do you have in the tank?

semi
06-25-2014, 06:45 AM
Topz,
My growbed is hydroton approx 70 gallons? It is the IBC top flipped over 10" deep. Only 5 gal makeup water added. There are 9 feeder goldfish getting big 2-4", 3 channel catfish 5-6", 5 hybrid bluegill 3-4", 6 yellow perch 3-4"...=23. I expected the feeder gf to be eaten but they grew fast.
I am using chiclid feed pellets because they float and some goldfish flakes because I am taining all for high quality pellets I got from the fishery the sold me the cats, bgs and perch. There have been no fatalities these past two days and ph has dropped to 8.1 from 8.7 in three days on its own. My FT has quarter size river rock and plastic fernery and some pvc refuges.
No other additives, when I pulled the pump and tubing to clean, I just used the jet setting on a standard hose nozzle...no soaps etc. The 800 gph pump is working like it should now, flood/drain every 12-15 minutes, diverter valve wide open, spilling/aerating back into ft.
The night before the dieoff began, I heard a louder than usual thump against the tank wall as feeding subsided. The wild ones are very aggressive swimmers at chow time. Banging into the walls is common. But this time was different. It may have been the bluegill that died within hours from head trauma.

semi
06-25-2014, 06:56 AM
apollo, topz,
i just found my well water is 8.95! Don't know why I didn't test it before straight from the tap. Seeing 7's in the FT soon after filling it lulled me into ignoring it, I guess. So, I was adding more frequently (twice a week) to catch up to evaporation and to bring the tank temp down gradually. Maybe the fish died from ph spikes.

Oliver
06-25-2014, 09:47 AM
Fish are very sensitive to ammonia when the pH is high.

Oliver

Apollo
06-25-2014, 08:46 PM
When I ran out of rain water, My system started running high on PH. I found out my city water is 8.4 or higher. I was trying to lower my Nitrates which was around 200ppm, I lowered my Nitrates to about 160 ppm but drove my PH from 7.8 up to 8.2 to 8.4

Fish seems to be doing fine but my plants in the GB's do not like the PH and the Nitrates that high.

semi
06-25-2014, 09:25 PM
We lost the biggest goldfish today. I may have dished up a perfect crap storm for the goldfish...pH spikes, stress from pump and plumbing cleaning, junk stirred up doing it, and worse...feeding much less goldfish food and cichlid food instead. I found out today that cichlid food is for predators not vegans. That was good for some but not for the goldfish. I will resume peas and broccoli to clean out the goldfish. The predators can handle another day or so fasting. pH is down to 7.4. I have a lot to learn. Thanks Oliver, topz and apollo, will keep y'all posted

topz
06-25-2014, 09:44 PM
Please do. As for.the goldies I'm sure they will find themselves on the menu of something in your tank. Glad you found the ph source so quickly. At high ph your fish are much less tolerant to ammonia and well just about anything.

semi
06-27-2014, 10:32 AM
topz, apollo, Oliver,
pH is back to just below 7 after resuming feeding and using less and proper food. I have figured out that each top off bucket of my well water needs 25 ml of a 29% solution of phosphoric acid to drop the pH to the same level as the FT. So far, so good. No dead fish for two days, and improved behavior. I will be adding 5 gallons per day for 10 days to bring water levels back to the start point. Evaporation really sped up over the past month or so, exascerbating the pH swing impact. I worry some about introducing so much phosphoric acid during this top off. It is aquarium approved for both fish and plants. I intend to get an RO rig, as well. Our water is very hard and tds laden. Will continue to update. Thanks again for your helpful insights:-)

Apollo
06-27-2014, 10:48 AM
Hey I was reading an old post, its got like 32,000 reviews the guy is talking about using vitamin C will lower your ph and remove chlorine from your water. I added vitamin C to my floating raft will check it tonight to see if it lowers my ph.

semi
06-27-2014, 09:52 PM
Previous pH reading was,a bit off I think. pH is at 7.6, treating well water before adding is helping a lot. No floaters:-) How did the vitamin C work apollo?

topz
06-27-2014, 11:42 PM
The small amount of vitamin c required to remove the chlorimide from the water is really not enough to change the ph. I use it on a fairly regular basis. The water here is so full of minerals it's an up hill battle to keep ph where I want it. By the time the system naturally lowers its time to do another round of fills.

Apollo
06-28-2014, 07:42 AM
Any thoughts on lowering the PH levels? I'm concerned about adding things to my system and if so how much.

semi wrote, "How did the vitamin C work apollo?" I added 1500 mg with no change that I could see. 24 hrs. later added 2500 mg still nothing.

semi wrote, " I worry some about introducing so much phosphoric acid during this top off. It is aquarium approved for both fish and plants."

topz wrote, "The small amount of vitamin c required to remove the chlorimide from the water is really not enough to change the ph. I use it on a fairly regular basis."

What would be a good amount of vitamin c to add to 850 gals twice a week? Then if I was to use phosphoric acid to bring it down the rest of the way to 7.6 - 7.8

Please advise...let my know if this should work or if you're using a better way to confiscate for the hard water being added.

topz
06-28-2014, 08:19 AM
The vitamin c needs to be added to top off larger then 10% in my case. As far as 850 gallons all at once I believe the rate was 500mg per 50 gallon. I hope it helps.

semi
06-28-2014, 09:05 AM
topz, apollo
What is the form of the vitamin c: liquid, capsule? Does it help reduce dissolved minerals to the point it is crucial to use? I also have tds heavy well water. I still plan to get an ro system. RO should negate the need for vitamin c, right?

Apollo
06-28-2014, 12:08 PM
I'm using the capsule form, by putting them in the Floating Duckweed Raft I don't have to worry about the fish eating them. As they dissolve they slowly make their way though the shade screen mesh and into the main tank.

topz
06-28-2014, 09:01 PM
I as well use tablets makes measurement easy.

semi
06-28-2014, 10:07 PM
So I went and got an RO system so I can clean up my water and keep it that way. Haven't set it up yet as I hung an inline fan and ducting today instead. It is 87F in the garage. Soooo...now I can move the hot air around:-)
Lotsa death today, mostly kale leaves but also one goldie. Do you think the phosphoric acid dried up my blue curled kale? I keep doing stuff to fix problems and make new problems in the process, I think. In any case, I am having fun with it and will keep at it til it settles down again. Water level in FT is back to where I started. pH is at 7.5, no ammonia or nitrite, nitrates at 30, temp at 78. Plan to step up serving size a tad. I wonder if the fish fasting also starved the greens.

semi
06-30-2014, 08:46 PM
Now many of the plants are dying too. Kale was first to show signs of interveinal chlorotics. Next the collards did the same. It seems that cabbage, basil, dill, and spinach are fine. My thought is that the pH spikes that killed the fish also blocked nutrient uptake. I added a cup of maxicrop with iron. I have trimmed away handfuls of bad leaves for 5 days now. Some remain so I will try to post pics.

semi
06-30-2014, 08:55 PM
Happy days just over a week ago.

semi
06-30-2014, 09:03 PM
[attachment=0:34mklvje]20140630_232253.jpg[/attachment:34mklvje]

semi
06-30-2014, 09:08 PM
:o Is anyone out there familiar with this sequence of trouble?

Apollo
06-30-2014, 10:11 PM
My guess is your high PH levels...your plants look similar to mine. The leaves just start to dry out and disintegrate, I was thinking it was because my PH levels were too high (8.4) or because my Nitrates (200 ppm) were too high.

With your Nitrates only being at 30 ppm, it leads me to believe it has more to do with your high PH levels. I also had some healthy looking fish die...from normal, to moving slow, to floaters all within 24hrs. My plants were all doing GREAT until my PH and Nitrates got too high.

How fast did you drop your PH level? That may have taken a toll on your fish.

semi
07-01-2014, 04:44 AM
7 days ago pH was 8.7, 4 days ago 7.5, yesterday 6.5 then 7.3 after I increased food rate and added 5 gal of RO'd water at 7.6 pH. That's right, RO system is up and running, churns out 5 gph:-) removes tds but only slightly decreases pH. Power outage early this am for 3 hours due to storm, generator running, no casualties.

topz
07-01-2014, 06:32 AM
Those are some big swings I try to keep anything I'm changing to a .2 to .3 change a day. That being said sometimes things react differently then we expect and sh*t happens. Keep the ph as close to 7 as you can and the plants should spring back. The ro ph should be fine if your going to try to adjust it do so prior to adding it to the tank.

semi
07-01-2014, 06:49 AM
OK, Thanks topz! I will need to take it a bit easier. Hurrying the pH adjustment process has contributed to my problems then. It is hard to be patient enough to get the pH within tenths when my tanks are tanking. I really appreciate the help you folks in this forum provide:-)

topz
07-01-2014, 08:42 PM
I'm pretty sure we have all done big changes before. I'm sure we've even killed a few fish in the process. One thing I've learned after doing so is patience is one of the biggest things you need to have in aquaponics.

Apollo
07-02-2014, 10:22 PM
semi you wrote, "My thought is that the pH spikes that killed the fish also blocked nutrient uptake".

Check out this post "Deficiency In Essential Minerals", it has a lot of great pictures and information. I listed the two parts that I thought was the most important as far as our problem goes.

1. PH level is very important, most all the elements have optimum PH level for absorption. The plant will not assimilate the nutrient if the PH level is too low or too high. Keep PH between 6.8 to 7.0 anything under 6.6 can kill off your BIO Filter. Anything over 7.8 your roots wouldn't be able to absorb any of the nutrients.

2. Iron, manganese and zinc are three essential elements that become inaccessible when PH is above 7.8, Hence their may not be a deficiency of one of these minerals, if your PH levels are stopping your plants from using them.

semi
07-07-2014, 08:06 PM
Update. Fish seem to appreciate the stable pH and added volume. The plants are recovering but slowly. The dill is doing best followed by spinach, basil, cabbage, eucalyptus, gotu kola and parsley (all never really failed). The radishes didn't recover but swiss chard, collards and 2 types of kale look like they want to rebound. My water general hardness (GH) is off the scale high and the calcium hardness (KH) at near zero, all bad. I will look deeper into solutions for those issues soon. I did clean about 30% of the FT. I will leave the fish habitat alone for a week or so. Is dehumidifier water void of dissolved solids? I have corrected dehum water pH and added it back in along with ro water, approx 30:70 ratio in doubling tank volume. Nitrites are low, nitrates about 80, ammonia low and pH still a bit up at 7.6

topz
07-07-2014, 08:59 PM
7.6 isn't terrible. As far as the dehumidifier water if it isn't devoid of solids it has to be better then the tap. let the system relax so everything can stabilize. Your fish and plants will do much better.

semi
07-08-2014, 07:25 AM
:D Thanks to all...great advice, as usual.