Stupid siphon....Need Help....again.

[foodchain]

Okay. I know you want pics...that has to wait for now. They are coming.

Another new system build. But I seem to have forgotten how to do some of this.

1/2 barrel on side, cut lengthwise. Stand pipe of bell syphon goes through the curved side as the media goes in the wheel barrow like hole. Now. What part keeps it from leaking? And don't tell me silicon cuz that isn't working. For whatever reason it doesn't stay stuck to the barrels and peels off after a few weeks. I can't find a uniseal for this either, they don't seem to work with two curved angles at 90 degrees. A compound curved angle of the barrel mating to the curved vertical angle of the pvc pipe is killing me.

I considered a constant flow syphon and I don't think I want that. Ebb and flow is the way to go for me. Right now though, all ebb, and no flow.

I used to know this, what am I forgetting please?

Thanks in advance.

[JCO]

Sorry, I can't help you with your 1/2 barrel problem...I've never used them so I have NADA experience with them. Don't forget it's the Holidays and forum members are pre-ocupied with other matters and answers will be slow. :mrgreen:

[foodchain]

What could possibly be more important....or addictive....than AP? Given enough time, frustration, and wrecked barrels I will find a solution. OR find a way not to use them at all.
Wait...that gives me an idea. Barrels are just so dang cheap though. I gotta go, I got an idea and better do something with it before I lose it.

[Roger L.]

As flexible as the barrels are when cut in half I would think you could use a bulkhead fitting pulled up good and tight.

[foodchain]

Maybe, but would have to torque the hell out of them with a set of wrenches. Hand tight isn't enough. When full of media, would the weight then cause enough change in shape to create a leak? Or maybe use threaded bulkhead with a dab of silicone on threads like tephlon/plumbers putty works? I just got four more barrels for free to work with. These are black not blue....but so what. They are safe based on contents, and I like black better, holds more heat.

[Roger L.]

I would think adding media to the half barrel would tend to flatten the barrel out more helping the sealing. A dab of silicone or plumbers putty may give some added sealing.

[foodchain]

No, your thinking of the barrel cut the other way, so like a bucket. These are cut lengthwise. So the bottom of the GB is the curved side of the barrel....as if barrel is on side. Bucket like cut would be easily fixable with a bung or bulkhead.

Being that the barrel is on it's side, there's not much give.

The barrels come with 2 inch threaded plugs, one in each half. But they are in the top, so when cut and laid on side, the openings end up being in the front or back. If you leave the plugs in, it holds water, take the plugs out, and the water runs out.

These plugs are within an inch or so of the outer lip. Can a bell siphon be mounted to this threaded port? Siphon would have to be L shaped. I have never heard of an L shaped bell siphon before. Does anyone have experience with this? Or an idea of how to make it work? Thanks.

[foodchain]

So I have a solution.
But I don't know how to make it or where to buy it. The local box stores don't seem to carry anything like this.
The threaded fittings that go through the barrel, and screw together sandwiching the blue plastic barrel in the middle need a gasket of sorts to form the seal.
Where do I find gaskets like this, or something similar to "form a gasket" material like I used to have as a kid for building engines? Came in sheets and you could cut out what you needed.

[Apollo]

Hi, it's me again...two ways that should work. 1st take some course sand paper to ruff up the area to be sealed, Home Depot has a product call "AMAZING GOOP" it's a plumbing contact adhesive. Check out my topic "Rain Barrel" by Apollo. One more tip, take a propane touch...heat from about 8 - 10 inches from barrel opening for about 30 - 45 seconds. Now take something like a soda can to form it into a flat surface, practice on a junk barrel.

2nd, I'm 99.9% sure that the "Pipe Siphon by Apollo" will work using your end plug on your barrel. Made from 3/4" PVC parts, maybe two 45 elbows instead of one 90 to make a easy flow turn at the plug.

[foodchain]

I found your post: Pipe Siphon by Apollo (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?1888-Pipe-Siphon-by-Apollo)

This functions exactly as the external overflow box in my reef systems. However, I don't follow how I can take a vertical pipe (stand pipe) and turn it horizontally and have it still work. The water would just run out the pipe...
Unless...
Unless I bring the pipe in horizontally from the end of the barrel, then add a 90 facing up (inside the barrel half), then the standpipe. Is this what you meant?

Now, the plug is just over 2 1/2 inches across, but there's an inner threaded plug inside the big plug. It's threads MATCH the same thread as my threaded pvc. Which interestingly enough matches the same thread as thread on faucets for the outside of the house. Not the hose end, but the threaded end for screwing on to the house pipes. But I am getting off topic.

If I thread the pipe in though, it won't allow enough pipe to go through as the male fittings don't have enough thread for that. Might just have to drill the threads out and use PVC glue as a solvent to melt the two together....or silicone it. I think the sand paper idea first is a good one. Not sure why I didn't think of that. But that's what happens when you take a break from this...you forget the basics.

Your torch idea is a no brainer to. That's how we make strawberry towers.

In your post regarding your siphon. What did you coat the concrete block with? I have a lot of experience with pond building, but that doesn't look like concrete or epoxy, or even shot crete. And most definetly isn't a liner as no wrinkles.

My supply pump for this is a 2 inch pump, with 57 ft of head pressure. The 220 line I have to run for this is a nasty bill. But one headache at a time.

[Apollo]

The vertical pipe (stand pipe) stays vertical, use two 45 elbows to make the horizontally turn. All you have done is add part of your drain pipe inside your GB. If the threaded area on the cap is to small drill it out to the size needed and use AMAZING GOOP. I hate silicone.

You asked "What did you coat the concrete block with"? You need to check out "Fire pit ... AP" by Apollo. All of the blocks were Liquid Nail together, joints were then L.N. again with a Bondo spreader. Cement floor and blocks where than coated with several coat of Henry's best roof coating for ponding water area's. As a safety precaution I added the pond liner just incase my tree ruts cracked my block work.

My supply pump is from Harbor Freight, made by PACIFICHYDROSTAR 1/4 HP, submersible, 2800 GPH, 1.5 IN NPT, with 22 ft of head pressure. The 120 volt / 60 Hz, 6.4 Amps, max pressure 9.5 with a 10 cord. It was bigger then what I wanted but their price and warranty was awesome...so I bought 2, 1 with and 1 without the extended warranty.

ATTENTION ! ! ! I just found out that the pump mention in the paragraph above has the main core made out of metal not, plastic / PVC. I pull the pump to clean my filter netting from debris when I notice what looks like pot metal corroded with acid. Even though the pump was just over its 90 day warranty I took it back. I told them it must have been corroding for sometime...so it became defeated while still under warranty. Got my money returned on both pumps and the extended warranty.

[foodchain]

Ok. So if I follow your advice and I use 3/4 pvc we run the risk of the barrels not draining fast enough. If I put 1/4 valves on the incoming water lines though to each barrel I can micro manage the flow. And to keep from dead heading the pump then with the restricted flow I can put a Y in coming off the pump and use the excess pressure/volume to run a fountain or additional water fall.
Dead heading is the fastest way I know to destroy a pump.

Now we start draining the pond to start redigging it. Time to make it deeper, possibly a split level pond to increase DO and the larger the volume the more constant the parameters. Bigger is better.

Once excavation is complete, I will build a short wall around perimeter from railroad ties. They are cheap, and the liner will keep water from contacting. This raises water level, increases volume....but running the pump intake off a skimmer in middle of pond ultimately reduces head pressure on the pump.

Water will go from main pool of pond w/skimmer. To IBC tote. Coming in at the bottom, and as the water level rises, near the top will be the pipe going to the GB. No pump needed there as will use the gravity. Water to GB. Then out the siphon to the highest pool of the pond and will discharge in the form of a water fall, flow through the split level pools and back to the pond skimmer....and repeat.

This will allow me to move roughly 6500-6800 gallons with one pump. The uppermost pool can be used as a grow bed as well. It's a preformed pond liner that I have previously installed at an angle and once full overflows one side as a waterfall to main pool. So no siphon there as it's a flow through currently full of lilies, etc. I might take this out and rework it though.

I need to push this design around some more. I feel like I am forgetting something.

[Apollo]

I have two 300 gallon GB's with a 850 gallon fish tank . My Pipe Siphons are made from 1 ½ " PVC Pipe, Tee’s & 90’s . After media GB's hold probably 150 of water, it takes 8 mins. to fill and 4 mins. to drain. If your new GB's are 55 gal drums cut in 1/2, you're only draining about 12 gals of water. You can build the Pipe Siphon any size you want...I was thinking that 3/4" PVC might be even to large for your set up.

A lot of newer builds are installing a swirl filter between your FT and your GB's. It cuts down on the s___ build up in your GB's. I'm thinking about building a pressurized one for my set up, I will run PVC over to my old style garden...install it over there. I can then use the fertilized water for those plants and to lower my nitrates in my AP if they get to high. I'll do my water exchanges...adding rain water from my rain barrels to my FT...releasing water from my swirl filter into my garden.

[foodchain]

The preformed liner functions similar to a swirl filter. I am not a fan of the swirl filters personally. The GB will function similar to a filter, but they are by no means the only GB. These are just the ones I am working on adding.

The water going from the pond to the 330 IBC filled with Bread Racks for the shrimp doubles as a settling tank. That's why the water comes in from the bottom.

What you are talking about with the old style garden is what the hippies did with catfish ponds back in the 60-70's and I believe one of the major contributions to guiding AP to what it is today. IF you do that, which is fine, it works fine. But it's no longer a "closed" system, but a semi closed loop.

Rain water is smart, it's how I top off my system as well. I buried a 330 gallon IBC in the ground to hide it, then ran gutters to it with wire mesh to prevent crap from getting in tank. Then use harbor freight shallow well pump with foot valve to pressurize garden hose. This allows rainwater to go through sprinklers or whatever I hook it up to.

[Apollo]

I was going to send you some pictures of my quail and garden...this site is not allowing them to go though. I will try again, later.

[JCO]

You can always post them on the forum :mrgreen:

[foodchain]

I never have gotten pics to upload. So I always end up emailing the people I end up talking with.

If you like the quail, give some thought to Chukar partridge. They dress out better, and are quite the characters. Breed readily, and same requirements as the quail. You just get more for the same work.

[Apollo]

I had just completed a 30' X 40' traditional garden weeks before learning about AP. Sooo my next project begins...the AP's is a closed system and is separate from my T.G. But when & if I need to either flush out my future swirl / sentiment filter or a partial water exchange, that water will go into my T.G.

[foodchain]

On this siphon, I have it all drawn out before construction. Why are we using a T and two intakes for the siphon stand pipe?
Theories on this: One pipe can become clogged with media or roots, and make starting/stopping less consistent and risking overflowing. So by have two, it functions as a back up, but being that they flow into the same single riser, it will not add more flow rate but will decrease intake pressure as split between two pipes. Therefore reducing probability of trouble later on.

Why two 45's instead of one 90 on the inside? Two 45's will reduce resistence on flow rate, but a 90 is more compact. With each barrel 1/2 being 11 1/2 inches; once we account for the two 45's and having to be 1 1/2 inches below edge of barrel, the stand pipe is what....8 inches or so tall. This isn't going to be very big.

Then once outside the barrel when connecting to 3 inch main drain line, is a 90 downward turn okay? Or another 45? A 90 at the end would cause more back pressure and resistance, but would direct the water more downward. If I take a hole saw and cut say 1 1/2 or 2 inch hole in 3" main in the top, the 3/4 90 could be fitted slightly to the inside of the hole to prevent back splash or overflowing on outside of the pipe. This doesn't need to be mated or anything, and the extra air gap would allow for more gas exchange but also prevent a pressurized line, burping, etc.

Thoughts on this?

[foodchain]

On the garden situation. I would encourage you to research vertical gardening. It's done wonders for us. I am on about 1/4 acre lot. And we produce quite a bit.

[foodchain]

The quail look similar to our Texas A&M strain. Personally I try to avoid the all white ones. When little they are bright yellow and don't seem to grow the same as the brown ones. Or maybe mine are just weird.

[Apollo]

On the garden situation. I would encourage you to research vertical gardening. Yes, I have the materials to make a lattice for climbers and will be installing 4 towers to each GB. Problem is so far my plants in the GB's aren't doing that great, either my PH @ 8.0 is still to high or my trees are shading it to much.

Why are we using a T and two intakes for the siphon stand pipe? With two intakes it allows more water to enter and fire the stand pipe. Plus with 200% water feeding your stand pipe instead of 100% it makes it almost maintenance free. With unrestricted water flow to the stand pipe it also increase the flow rate.

Yes, a 90 at the bottom of your stand pipe is fine...I have mine that way. As for the drain pipe enters your FT, I have two 90's connected together makes it easy to fine tune,

I was reading up on Chukar partridge, 2 questions will they cohabitate with my quail? It stated that they only lay eggs from April / May well into summer. My quails 1 egg per day almost 100% of the time, as far as size goes the only different I noticed was not color related. All my males are smaller then the females.

[foodchain]

The eggs of the Chukar are more than 2x the size of the Coturnix eggs. Most people don't eat those Chukar eggs, I am sure you can, but once you eat one of those birds you will be hatching every egg they lay and they are prolific layers during the on season. The Coturnix will lay nearly one a day, almost year round, but it takes 3 of theirs to = one chicken egg. They have better food conversion rate, and lay much earlier, but it takes more eggs to equal same mass of one chicken. So pick you poison. Mine are white meat, and I eat them as often as I can as even BBQ, Souis Vede or smoked. The eggs I pickle or hatch.
Or crack in ice cube trays, 3 to a hole, and freeze. Use for baking, omelettes, etc as all premeasured.

They are far healthier meat/egg than chicken.

Chukar should live with quail fine, provided there's enough room. They are extremely peaceful. And fly tiers will want the skinned portion for flies.

[foodchain]

Off to gather 3/4 pvc parts and start tinkering with this some more. I have to build a frame system to support this off the ground. Under the framing I will cage in, and that's where I intend to either put more quail or the kids pot belly pig.....they are so freakin tasty.

[Apollo]

What's the grow out rate on the Chukar before you invite them for dinner? I'm new to all this...I have a Still Air Incubator and an Automatic Egg Turner. But haven't used it yet, with the quail chicks they said to keep them inside for the 1st six weeks. I got me chicks @ 3 day old, kept them outside with shelter and a heat lamp. All 20 were fine but that was in Sept, not sure how they would do this time of year. Do you have to do anything special to hatch the little guys?

Quail eggs have 2 - 3 times more protein per egg and a lot of other good stuff, eat 3 eggs at a time you get 6 - 9 times more protein than if you eat just 1 chicken egg.

Not sure what this means "And fly tiers will want the skinned portion for flies".

[foodchain]

I have used about every type of incubator up to about the $600 range. Still air will work, but has cooler/hotter spots in chamber. Ideally you want forced air...but they cost a little more. You don't have to have an egg turner, they are nice, but cost more. When NOT using one, take pencil, not pen and mark X on one side of egg. Turn egg either X up or X down each day, keep them all the same for that day. So each day will be all X's or no X's.

Grow out time depends on how big you want them. Usually a couple months for me. But I have a big apetite and eat just about everything out there.

Quail feather within in a week. I keep mine inside for 1 week. 2nd week they are outside during day and in at night. 3rd week they are outside, sink or swim. But I give them a 60 watt heat lamp about 14 inches off the ground from sundown to sun up. They survive by forming coveys to stay warm.

So as long as you have say 10 birds, your fine they will keep each other warm once they are feathered.
Look into a "lock down" period. This is key with any incubating. Don't assist hatches. It's tempting but you will learn there's a reason they are struggling hatching. IF they survive, the ones you helped out are never quite right and usually are defective. Quail tempts and time to incubate are different than chickens. Research BEFORE starting a set to prevent issues. Do NOT wash eggs you tend to hatch. The water plugs the pores in shell and suffocates developing embrio. The ones that don't hatch, open and observe what went wrong? Bacteria? Deformed ( usually caused by not turning enough or too much-embrio settles to one side and dies) where they shrink wrapped? I could write a whole website just on trouble shooting hatches.

Bottom line....you will learn. And they lay enough eggs, that you will run out of incubator space before long. Research it.....do it....when you fail, and you will at least once, we all do. Open the eggs in a well ventilated area and find out why. What you find when you GENTLY open the egg identifies the problem.

Always always always give them 2-3 days LONGER than the calendar says. Nature is sometimes a little off. And IF your temp fluctuated, or humidity was off it WILL effect the hatch rate, days to hatch, AND gender...the last one is debated frequently. I am going by 30 years of first hand experience with this. I will always take my first hand experience over a book, some bean counter in a basement with no windows wrote. Also, I did game birds and poultry in 4H as a kid, amongst other projects.

On the incubators....still air works, just not as consistent. I have even hatched reptiles in still air ones. They are just a pain. And for just a little more money there are far better buys out there. IF this is something that you are going to do....I would encourage the proper tool for the proper job.
IF you are unsure, go still air till you decide as small investment if you change your mind, and people readily buy them on CList.

[mikebothma]

not silicon, most silicons have toxic additives, and anyway it doesn't work. I use fibre washers on a bulkhead fitting just over hand tight - any tighter will cause distortion. So far no leaks.

[TMorgan]

Just FYI, but I have used a PVC electrical fitting (they are not tapered thread), an O-ring, and a plastic conduit nut if you don't have a threaded hole (you will have to sand the end down so it won't bottom out) to get through odd spots before. I don't remember the exact fitting I used, but a little sanding on the inside and I was able to pass a PVC pipe thru it and cement it in place. I was using it as the base for a bell syphon, but it would work horizontally.

[Apollo]

Back to you foodchain, on Japanese Quail & Chukar. Your knowledge seems to be far greater than what I'm getting on another Forum.

I have a large multi level pen 7' X 12' @ 6' tall in my back yard, sits on the ground under a large tree.

I have hatched over 60 Japanese Quail over the year that I've had them, each hen would lay an egg per day. After hatching out 27 chicks I sold off all of my males to save on feed, knowing that I would have plenty breeding males in 6 weeks.

Shortly after doing so the egg production started dropping, down from 16 - 18 eggs per day to 1 egg per day. Do hens need a male in order to produce eggs?

As for my Churkar at what age should the be full grown and laying eggs?

[CrazyCattleDog]

I used the bulk head fittings and wrenches to tighten mine with no silicon or sealer and they seated just fine I too have my barrels cut long ways..I used the bulkheads foam washer on the outside and no leaks.... I found that a heat gun and a Plastic welding kit from Harbor Freight to be quite useful when working with the barrels...Just my take on it anyways....

Yikes didn't see the post was 3 pages long already so info probably out of place...I guess that's what I get for typing without my helmet on..... :shock:

[JCO]

Don't worry about the date or how long your post is. Input from all forum members is what keeps this forum alive. :mrgreen:

[foodchain]

http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?2176-System-Stuck-need-to-know-why

Continuation of this nightmare. I need advice, this isn't working with bell siphons, in or out....or the constant flow siphons.
Need input please.

[Apollo]

Hey Foodchain...did you ever get the "Pipe Siphon" to work? Where has everyone gone...almost no post from the old gang anymore.