Something missing on overflow pip?

[fish]

I'm trying to put overflow pipe between sump tank and grow bed. (Fish tank > Sump tank > Grow bed)
Sump tank is lower position than Grow bed.
Initially, I tried a overflow pipe which output pipe is higher than overflow in the water. It didn't work.
So, I tried to make basic pipe first. But it doesn't work either.
The bottom of pipe in water is slightly higher than outside pipe. Should I change to much higher?
or anything missing or wrong with this piping?
Before starts experiment, should I put the water in the pipe? (I did but the same result, no syphon movement or anything. just nothing happen. I pumped water to the container where the overflow pipe located to make sure water is pushing.)
All of the pipes are 1 inch dia.

[fish]

Yes, it is plastic tube. I tried to find air-valve, but Home depot doesn't have. So, I thought tube might work.
Where can I get air-valve? or how can I make one?
Is it the reason that this setup doesn't work?

[fish]

You are right. it should be down hill. I wanted to make it the same level.(in and out is same level)
But try to do basic one first, which is the water level (in) is higher than the output.
ummm, let me think little more. (I feel that air check valve may be one thing as you pointed.)
Thanks for your comment.

[rocketboy]

The way you have it set up there the height of the bend with the airline will be will be the high point of the water. If you have to have that bend in there than you need to remove the airline and make it water tight, than fill it with water so that it siphons out. The issue I would see with it though is that you always have to make sure the water level doesn’t get too low to get air inside the line and up in that bend. If it does you would have to wait until the water level gets up to that bend and creates a siphon again.

[fish]

ok. The water level can't be that high with my setup (top bend height is height of the tank), so this one doesn't work for me with tight tube.
I'll need to rethink some other way. Thanks for the comment.

[Roger L.]

Just lower the bend and make it airtight and it should work after filling with water.

[rocketboy]

I assume you are using an aquarium, or something that you can’t run a pipe through the tank?

[fish]

I didn't want to make a hole on sump (5 gallon bucket), so I tried to do like aquarium.
I ruined several buckets because I messed up the holes with uniseal. So, I tried to avoid making a hole.

Because the bend is the height of the bucket, I make water intake pipe longer instead of lower the bend. It didn't work. I tried several different variation, nothing worked. I got check valve at Petsmart. Sill not work.

Now I think that I make a hole on the bucket. I still wondering why it didn't work though...

Thanks for the comments. Those comments were only my hope for the day. Especially after playing around with cold water all day. Tomorrow will be better.

[Apollo]

Well...you both have me totally confused, so this may not work or even make any sense. If you use a 5 gal bucket with a sealed, removable lid. Put your inlet on one side of the lid and your outlet on the other side of the lid. Poop water goes in, poop falls to the bottom...clear water then goes out the other side. Water is then pushed up to your GB where gravity returns it back to FT. When bucket gets full, just pop off the lid and empty water on your yard plants.

Remember, it'll all be worth it in the end. To view pictures of my setup look under "Pipe Siphon by Apollo". Good Luck!

________________________________

I HAVE NOT FAILED. I'VE JUST FOUND 10,000 WAYS THAT WON'T WORK. Thomas A Edison

[fish]

ha. I will try that.
I looked at Apollo siphon. looking good. Thanks.

[fish]

I try to use Argee Food Safe bucket. But it's so hard to place the lid on the top. The description of lid says you have to Push or hit by mallet by following he number on the lid. I hit by a hammer since I don't have a mallet. But it didn't close. I don't have enough power for it. Does anyone know about a trick to close the lid?

[Apollo]

Dunn Edwards Paints and Home Depot has white plastic buckets for under $5, HD has white lids for under $2. The lid you're looking for have a black rubber gasket deep inside the grove. The lower strip will peel off exposing about 12 tabs, pop the tabs one at a time to pry open. Paint stores should have a tool to help remove the lids. You can push lid on by hand if you put your weight into it, 2 x 4 works well (don't be afraid to give it a good whack).

The Plumbing Department has PVC screw apart connectors, if you place them on both your inlet and outlet lines going to the lid it will make for easy removal. I would leave the lid on and just dump and rinse though these openings.

Another product that I use a lot of is "Plumbing Goop" by Amazing it come in a purple 3.7 fl oz squeeze tube. Let it cure for about 48 hours of until it no longer smells before placing it in water.

[fish]

Thanks for the detailed description.
I have Home Depot white one.
Do I need to cut the edge of lid?
What is 2x4?

I have several same bucket and 2 lids. None of the combination doesn't work. I stood up on the lid and jumped, but nothing happen(i'm light).

[Apollo]

So I now know that you are neither a painter nor a carpenter. :D There is a pull tab about 3/8" on the bottom edge of the lid, look at the outer edge for the starting point. If you break loose the tab, pull and remove it...will also make it 2X easier to snap lid on bucket. And a 2 X 4 is a piece of wood two inches by four inches and is long enough to swing it like a bat (or just was a bat).

Are you using this bucket as a pre filter for the GB? FT with pump, water goes to bucket, because bucket it sealed it will then push water out the outlet up to the GB. GB is higher than FT and water will then drain back into the FT and cycle begins again.

[Aloha Don]

Thoughts about buckets....
In my opinion the 5 gallon buckets are pretty expensive in HD or other hardware stores.. (I am cheap...penny pincher...etc)
If you go to fast food restaurants that make their own sauces, they usually have food grade buckets that they throw away. Just ask for a few at a time....
The worst they can say is no... :o
Make friends with the workers and they can hook you up... :D

[Apollo]

I went back and reread your set up but didn't find where you were placing your pump, size or how much head pressure (height it could push water) and at how many GPH.

[fish]

I should've come up with the idea asking food place for the buckets. I've already bought 7 buckets and ruined 5 of them by making wrong hole, leaking hole, changed my mind hole, etc.

I was afraid that someone find that I don't know anything and don't bother making comments on my question. I'm so grateful that you guys are sooo nice.
Since you guys found out that I don't know anything, so I confess...
I've never done any painting/wood/fish/vegetable (In the past, I tried to grow some tomato, but never successful).
This time, I was serious about doing aquaponics and I bought the equipment that place nail in the wood (I don't know the name of it), a circular saw, so on. I've never seen a circular saw before and no idea if it going forward or backwards, how to operate. Of course it didn't work for me. I almost returned it. But I found a u-tube video how to use it, and it worked!

The plan has been changing daily. Current plan is that Fish tank water goes to bucket with SLO (I couldn't put the lid, so I stacked buckets and try to just move the water to GB. But now I know that I need to rip off the parts of the lid, I will try that one. Thank you for teaching me. )
GB goes to sump (I was afraid that the capacity of the sump is too small, so I got bigger tank and put bucket and media. bucket is to remove dirty stuff from FT by circular motion.) The left of the space is for media. I bought Puro-kleen filter and fish net for it.
Pump is in there go push water to FT.

Initially, all pipe was 1/2, but I'm changing because the flow was small. SLO part is 1 in. then all others are 1/2 for now.
Pump in sump 396 G/H. Fish tank height is 24in. from there 48+13.5in then 24in (bottom of tank). FT is 27x48x24in. Pipe is 1/2.
SLO pipe is 1 inch then connect to 1/2 goes to sump bucket. From sump bucket to GB (not sure yet 1/2 or 3/4. I made 1/2 hole already though)
From GB to sump/media tank - trying to change to 1 in pipe for SLO part only, then 1/2 pipe goes to media/sump tank. GB is 34x72x12.

[Apollo]

Well...Congratulations look how far you come, how proud you must feel. LOOKING GOOD!! Soooo much work, I started my AP just about the time the temp was between 100 and 118, at one point I almost tore it all down and was going to give up. :oops: AND THEN I found this site...the dream lives on, :P it help to talk to others with the same dream. ;)

I will try to get my site updated with more pictures and info, it's not quit cycled in yet. But it's getting there.

____________________________________
I HAVE NOT FAILED. I'VE JUST FOUND 10,000 WAYS THAT WON'T WORK. Thomas A Edison

[Roger L.]

Fish, keep on going! We all start out knowing nothing and learn as we go. Hang in there, read and study and soon you will be helping someone with what you have learned.

[JCO]

When you can take 'da pebble from my han Glasshopper, you will be an Aquaponist :shock: :o :mrgreen:

[fish]

I'm so appreciated all of you guy's comments, encouragement, and everything!!!
Thank you so much. I really got power from the comments you guys giving me. Thanks for the forum and people in forum.
I'll work on the pipe between sump and GB tomorrow after seal uniseal area. (At this point, the flow is not enough to bring the water to GB.)

[Apollo]

Might I suggest that you look into a larger pump with more head pressure. Not sure if there is a Harbor Freight Tools in your area but for $53 you can get a 1350 GPH submersible pump. They have a great return policy, buy it, try it, return it, if you don't like it. I got my pump there for a lot less then anywhere else...works great.

[fish]

I see. Actually, the pump was too strong and the FT was almost overflowed, so I turned off power until the water went down, then started again. So the flow from FT to sump is too slow. I changed part of the pipe to 1 inch, most of the part is 1/2.
Because I'm afraid of re-do the hole in the FT, I didn't change the size of entire pipes. (I've had hard time to stop the leak from the hole in FT and GB.) I may need to re-do the hole first, I guess.

[Apollo]

Question, what does "Fish tank water goes to bucket with SLO (I couldn't put the lid, so I stacked buckets and try to just move the water to GB." mean?

I'm newer at this than you are so what is SLO? Maybe leave your pipe from the FT to the GB alone since it doesn't leak, just add a secondary pipe. Drilling a new hole my be easier than tiring to enlarge the old one.

[fish]

SLO is Solid Lift Overflow.
I'm using it in the fish tank, but it doesn't have siphon action and the flow is very slow. I don't know what's wrong with my system.
I've experimented a lot today. I stacked 4 buckets to increase height of the pipe from sump to GB. It is not good as I expected. My Fish tank's out pipe height is almost same as GB tank. That makes things tough. My grow bed is raft. When I read about raft, many people said that remove solid before goes to raft. So, I wanted to remove solid at the sump between FT and GB.
Finally, I cut a bucket in half and used as a table for 5 gallon bucket sump. Also, made holes in that bucket and GB.
It worked although very slow and little water.

[Apollo]

Hello Fish, I'm sorry you're still having all these problem. It's real hard at least for me to give you the advice you seek, since I have yet to get the full picture in my mind on your set up. Lets try this, first lets start with your pump (where is it located?). You stated "Actually, the pump was too strong and the FT was almost overflowed". So your pump feeds your FT. (Y or N) Where is it pumping from? Does your water flow in this order? ( 1 ) FT, ( 2 ) Sump, ( 3 ) GB, then back to ( 1 ) FT

[fish]

Thanks. your pump feeds your FT. (Y) Where is it pumping from? (square sump tank) Does your water flow in this order? ( 1 ) FT, ( 2 ) sump bucket in square Sump, ( 3 ) GB, (4) square Sump (but not in the bucket) then back to ( 1 ) FT

As you can see the picture, the sump is one square tank. sump from FT is bucket in the square tank.

For now, I'm going to pump small water.

[Apollo]

See I knew I was missing something.

If your GB overflow is higher than your FT. You are not doing a fill and drain on your GB, because you're doing a continues flow in your GB. The square sump tank in my opinion is not needed.

I think you can increase your flow by placing your pump in the FT. Pump poop water to your sealed 5 gal bucket going in on the outer edge of the lid. As poop water enters the bucket you could do a 90 elbow to make water swirl...cleaner water will exit the bucket thought the center of the lid. You can even put a drain value on the bottom outer edge of the bucket to drain off the crap without removing any part of your set up.

Water is still being pushed by your pump to your GB, have a large enough gravity return pipe back to your FT. If the return that you have is not letting it drain fast enough I would add a secondary gravity return pipe. This will give you the maximum water flow and still filter your FT water before it goes to your GB.

[Roger L.]

Fish, you do not have enough drop from this fish tank to your filter to create a siphon. The outlet location of the line must be below the inlet location to create that. I agree with Apollo that if your system is constant flow in your grow bed then put the pump in the fish tank, pump into your filter and let it gravity feed into the grow bed then return to the fish tank. That should keep a fairly constant level in the fish tank. If the pump is to high of an output then add a valve to the line going to the filter and another valve to divert excess back into the fish tank. Adjust your valves so you get the flow correct for the grow bed. The water diverted back to the fish tank will create extra oxygen for your fish, they will like that.

[fish]

Umm, so the height wise, this is an order from high to low.
FT / bucket sump / GB / square sump.
I'm trying to avoid placing pump in FT.
Maybe i should change the pipe to bigger one... As you mentioned earlier, making another hole is an option.

[Apollo]

If you don't want your pump in the FT you can get a portable utility pump and mount it outside of the tank.

I think you're going to find out that water being pump will flow so much faster than water just running off the top of your FT though your 5 gal filter on the way to your GB and back to you square sump.

I'm sure that there is some formula that could give you that answer. You might try just bypassing your 5 gal filter and your GB, just go from the slump to the FT than back to the sump. Once you find the right size on the water return pipe so everything works. Then plumb the rest of your system, just to be on the safe side I would use the next size large pipe (it wouldn't hurt).

If you do end up with an extra hole coming out of your FT. I would use it as an emergence overflow to the sump, it will stop your FT. from over flowing and stop your pump from running out of water.

Hey try this first, use one of your old buckets as a pretend FT. Pump water into the bucket...cut hole on side of bucket to find out what size of hole is needed to return water back to pump.

[Roger L.]

A siphon will never form unless you get the outlet of the pipe below where the inlet on the pipe is. You can not change the laws of hydraulics.

[fish]

Thank you so much for all the replies. portable utility pump? That sounds good. I never knew until now. I just saw the reply after working whole day :|
I modified some and somehow it started working today!
SLO started working! I don't know why exactly.
GB's little SLO hasn't worked as same as FT SLO until this morning.
When I take out 't' area and unplugged pipe and put it back in 't' and put it back in GB.
Then suddenly started working.??? Even making venturi sound.
The GB is always stay the same height now, amazing.
I saw a hope. Then worked on FT. I made the length of pipe from 't' to FT hole shorten. Then It started working. After I stopped pump and re-start pump, SLO stopped working, so I made another hole in the bucket at lower position.
But I found was that (and I guess other people know about it ) after remove some of the water from sump bucket, it started working. I think not the position of the hole.
The pump is still stronger, so I keep the return pipe from pump in sump.
I'm not sure if this flow is not enough for FT/GB, but will see. If not enough, I will try what recommended definitely.

After I took these pictures, I changed pump position, pipes in FT. But this is about what's going on now.

[Apollo]

Well, the hard part is over...let the fun part begin. Nice talking with you, keep everyone posted on your progress. If you ever get to Phoenix, AZ. look me up. Good Luck Rod

[fish]

Thank you so much. Without you guys, I'm already drop out of AP.
Now I imagine my gorgeous fish'n salad on the table :D

[Apollo]

Hi, its been a while...just wondering how's everything going? :roll:

[fish]

Thank you for asking how i'm doing!
I've removed all water and dried GB/ST(sump tank)/FT.
Then added clean water. However, I realized that I didn't have a plan to have 2nd FT (Rubbermaid) so that the space for 2nd FT is not enough and can't close the shed. It's getting cold and I want to close the shed.
So, I removed all water again and moved existing AP system, and added water again. (It's 3rd day today for new water)
I got 2nd FT for back up for 1st FT. But fish I'm trying to get has minimum order requirement and it's a lot. So, I need to use 2nd FT. I don't have space for GB for it, so I will try to do aquaculture. Well, I just realized that I forgot to make a hole for pipe on 2nd FT. I have remove water again...
Also, I'm still uncomfortable using Rubbermaid for FT. I've used up Dura Skrim because I made some cut on GB when tried to make bigger hole and had to re-do GB with new Dura-skrim. I just telling myself that Rubbermaid is fine since many people using and nothing happened.

Anyway, I covered 1st FT with insulation sheet and ordered a tank heater.
Changed to 3/4 inch pipe for GB 'in'.
Current pH is 9.5 (GB) 9.8(FT1) 10.0 (FT2). My house's tap water is around this range. 2 days no change. Temp 15.0c.
TDS 0.04.
I'm wondering how to lower pH. Someone says Lime juice, some others say it is bad.

I visited an existing commercial AP for a tour 2 days ago. I learned a lot including shop name near this area that I could buy so many things at low cost.

[Aloha Don]

Please do not take this the wrong way...
If I could suggest as I would with anyone starting out in AP (or anything)
Stop.....take a breath....maybe read (or re-read) Oliver's Aquaponics 101.
draw out your system the way you want it and see if you have the room, material, and time to complete....
Count the cost before starting will save future headaches

[fish]

Thank you Aloha Don for the suggestion. That's a good point. I will remember that next time.
I also learned that I need to be flexible. I bought an AP book before starting AP and followed 'using 1/2 inch pipe throughout the system' (I didn't know about 101 at that time). When it didn't work and multiple people suggested me to use the bigger pipe instead, I changed to bigger one for some area. Although a fish supplier quoted appropriate quantity/amount, a month later, it was no longer available (I guess seasonal), I chose to add one more tank. I learned that there are so many opinions on the AP. Choosing one from many opinion is always risky, but needs to be done to go to next step even it fails... and it is not really a fail, it is just tried one way out of many ways. (yup, famous words)
Of course, we should learn what other people already experienced/found as you suggested. Needless to say, it is most important. Thanks.
Now I'm getting used to this somewhat analog world and enjoying it.
For now, I'm done with the system building.
ph on GB went down little. I bought a bottle of ammonia. Cycling without fish will be started soon.
...and I've appreciated everybody's comment/suggestion/encouragement I got from this forum.
Those words/knowledge are some of my engine powers to keep doing this fun stuff.
I will learn/experience and hope I can give some back to people coming later. (well, in the future :) I need to start before it ;) )

[Aloha Don]

Good job staying with it and remember to be patient during the cycling process.
There are many ways to build successful AP systems BUT there are a few principles that MUST be followed.
Continue to read/study and ask questions...
Looking forward to hearing about your progress and successes!!

[Apollo]

Hey Fish, been a long time...is your PH coming down yet? It took my system about 90 days before it started slowly moving down. It started @ 7.2 then went up to 8.4, stayed between 8.4 & 8.2 for about 90 days. It's now has been just over 100 days and PH is down to 8.0 with both my Ammonia & Nitrite's @ 0 ppm.

Nitrates started up slowly for about 6 weeks before taking off...now are at 160 ppm.

Would love to hear from you...enjoy the holidays.

[Apollo]

Good Morning Fish, not sure if your still swimming with us...been a long time.

You had stated that "I've used up Dura Skrim because I made some cut on GB when tried to make bigger hole and had to re-do GB with new Dura-skrim." On my system I have two, 6ft seams...been about 10 mo. with not problems

To make a seam / repair for the Dura liner I took some small piece of the liner as tried lots of different methods for bonding them together. By over lapping 2 pieces with different cements, then placing it in water for 24 hrs. Best by far was "Christy Red Hot Blue Glue...PVC Pipe Cement", easy to use, dries quickly and any hardware store should have it.

_________________________________________________
I HAVE NOT FAILED. I'VE JUST FOUND 10,000 WAYS THAT WON'T WORK. Thomas A Edison