How I DECIMATED my aquaponics system and I have no idea why!

[Jeff]

I don't know if this is a cry for help, or just my last ditch effort to figure out what the hell is going on.

BACKGROUND: I've had my established backyard system going fine for TWO YEARS now. In those two years, I don't think I've ever lost a fish. So aquaponics isn't exactly new to me. My system consists of a 110 gallon tank and three 40-gallon grow beds filled with hydroton.

[attachment=4:2s8qi4hs]image(22).jpeg[/attachment:2s8qi4hs]

All of the sudden, roughly two weeks ago, fish began to die. Since the last 14 days, I've gone from 29 fish to about 8! Yes, you read that correctly.

The way it started was that I found about 6 dead ornamental fish (on the smaller side) all dead in the corner of the tank. Some were partially eaten so they may have been there a few days. Since I had so many fish though and never an issue, I hadn't been checking the water as much as I should.

[attachment=3:2s8qi4hs]image(23).jpeg[/attachment:2s8qi4hs]

So my first thought was, "Oh crap, was there some kind of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spike? What could have killed them?" I checked all those levels with my test tube kit, and the only thing that appeared high was the ammonia (possibly 0.5ppm). Perhaps the ammonia was high because of the dead fish sitting in there, but more than likely, I think it began to slowly rise because all the fish were growing larger, and contributing more waste to the system. I think having 29 fish in a system with only 110-120 gallons of water is too much (but didn't seem like it when they were all babies).

But I digress.....

What could have killed them? I know.....perhaps it's because I had hadn't vacuumed out any fish sediment that may have been collecting around the pump inside the tank. You see, my pump cycles water from the tank to the grow beds, but inevitably, any solids that don't get sucked up sit around the sides and back of the pump. Well, there was a mountain of sediment in there.....so I used a wet-vac and sucked it up.

Thinking that would have some positive impact, I was surprised when more fish started dying.....this time, some healthy LARGE goldfish.

[attachment=2:2s8qi4hs]image(24).jpeg[/attachment:2s8qi4hs]

So I immediately went to the pet store with a sample of water, and had them test it. They said it looked fine, but the nitrates looked high. (NOTE: My nitrate readings at home looked fine, but the pet store used those little 5-on-1 test strips which indicated a high nitrate level. Strange, I thought.....possibly an error? I always heard those strips weren't that accurate.) Either way, they recommended a water change.

Now here is where I made my first big mistake. I did an aggressive water change (over 60% of the tank). My tank is about 100 gallons, by the way.

Up until this point, I've always just topped off water when it evaporated....never did a water change. Topping off always consisted of putting my hose into the tank and filling it until it was full (estimated about 10-30 gallons at any one top-off). Never did I ever put in any Stress Coat formula or Salt.


So after this drastic water change, within a few hours, I saw more "healthy" fish die. I believe that happened from shock: too much water changing places, and possibly a temperature difference from the hose?

[attachment=1:2s8qi4hs]image(25).jpeg[/attachment:2s8qi4hs]

A few days later, after it seemed under control, I started to see my Koi dying. All water tests appeared to be fine (pH, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite). The water temp was in the 70's or low 80's, and that's never been a problem. Always had good water flow and oxygen being returned from the siphons.

[attachment=0:2s8qi4hs]image(27).jpeg[/attachment:2s8qi4hs]

So like an idiot who means well, I decided on ANOTHER WATER CHANGE. This time, I took a bunch of 1 gallon plastic water bottles, filled them with water, let them sit IN THE TANK to get the temp acclimated, and then poured them in. I also added the right amount of Stress Coat formula and 1 ppt of salt.

I even built a new 15 gallon radial flow filter, to help collect any extra sediment from the fish bed and serve better filtration.

Despite all this, my fish are still dying (at least once per day).

I checked my ammonia and it appears a little high (between 0.25 - 0.5). I haven't fed the fish for 2 days now, and I have no idea why it's high. The only thing I can think of is perhaps the water changes from last week affected the nitrification cycle? What do you think?

Either way, I am totally helpless right now and have no idea what to do to stop the fish from dying. Any ideas?

[Aloha Don]

My system is much newer than yours but I had the same thing happen...All of a sudden my fish started dying...Unfortunately, my issue WAS an ammonia spike that registered on my test kits. At least that is what I am assuming killed them.
I did a 50% water change and slowed the fish feeding (never stopped feeding) - monitored until it re-stabilized.
I dont use the stress coat. I was not sure it is good for plants. ???
I know this is NOT what is happening in your system but in case others have similar issues...this is what worked for me.

[Jeff]

Thanks for the post. I look forward to what others might say as well. I am concerned if the higher ammonia right now (AFTER water changes and mass fish die off) may be due to my tank needing to cycle again? I never got rid of ALL water.....but I did change out a good portion of it. The media beds which filter the water are still in place, and I'm sure there's still nitrificating bacteria in there......but perhaps other members can comment if doing a large water change (or adding salt) can contribute to an ammonia spike (due to bacteria being removed, or neutralized by the new tap water).

[JCO]

I've thought about it quite a bit while on the road and can't really come up with anything but I would lay off the water changes. Have you checked your grow bed to see if it is getting clogged. That could cause a problem in the fish tank. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

JCO - Well I haven't a fish death in a couple of days. I think the ammonia was a little high, but any number of things may have attributed to it:

- Lack of initial water change
- Overfeeding

I think my over aggressive water change also did more harm than good by disrupting the bacteria cycle, and also shocking some of the fish, resulting in more deaths.

In the past couple of days, I have simply ADDED treated water (no more than 10 gallons a day) until the ammonia appears to be diluted a bit. I am also applying Stress Coat to the newly added water (which helps get rid of chlorine, chloramines, etc), and I'm also putting in aquarium salt into my sump to help treat the system for any parasites.

My question for you is this: I have NEVER cleaned out any of my grow beds, so I am sure there may be sludge and god knows what else at the bottom of them. But how can you clean a grow bed which has established plants already in them?

For example: In one of my growbeds, I have Serrano pepper plants. They're pretty established (being two years old), and they are great producers during the season. I fear that if I try to pull them out in order to clean the grow bed, it will damage the roots and they will never recover.

So are there any tips on how to clean a grow bed which has established plants in them? Someone on another forum suggested that to clean a grow bed, you can FLOOD it, try to swirl all the media around, and then drain it a few times until the water being expelled looks clean.

My only concern with that is:

1. Will that damage any plants which are in there?
2. Will that kill off any bacteria in the system (thus disrupting the nitrification cycle), or will all the beneficial bacterial still remain in the Hydroton and pick up right where they left off?

[JCO]

Someone on another forum suggested that to clean a grow bed, you can FLOOD it, try to swirl all the media around, and then drain it a few times until the water being expelled looks clean.

Bad idea! Since you have established plants in the grow bed that are producing annually, you don't want to disturb them unless you want to loose them.

One thing that may help to some extent if you are able to do so, change the location/way the water goes into the grow bed giving it new avenues to travel, but I will tell you now as I have stated in previous posts about cleaning out a grow bed, sooner or later you will have to or you are actually not doing Aquaponics. Instead you are watering a Mud Grow Bed that sooner or later becomes a raised grow bed of media and dirt.

There is nothing you can put into the grow beds that will clean out what has gathered there. In other posts, some members swear by placing worms in there but I know from past experience (46+ years of it), it doesn't work.

The only way to prevent the sludge build up is placing a large, well constructed sump tank between the fish tank and the bio-filter, before the grow beds to catch the uneaten food, fish poo and particulates before they get there and even then the bed will have to be cleaned every two or three years.

I wish I had better news but that's the way of Aquaponic grow beds which use media. :mrgreen:

[David - WI]

If I have this right... the percentage of "un-ionized" ammonia goes up with temperature and pH; and unionized ammonia is more toxic at higher pH.

So, water temperature & pH are where I would be looking. (At 82F and a pH of 7.8 or 75F and 8.0 pH... 0.5 ppm of ammonia would be toxic).

[Aloha Don]

JCO - wont scuds help clean out the GBs???

[JCO]

Scuds can help keep an AP system clean but they can't perform miracles. If the system is already over the hill, they could maybe help some but never enough by themselves to correct a problem. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

JCO - You mentioned changing the direction of the water. I think I have done that to some degree in the past. For example, instead of it just pouring straight into the grow bed, I attached a 90 degree elbow and extended the output to another area of the tank. If I ever want to change directions, I simply can twist this pipe 180 degrees, and wallah: it will now be on the opposite side of the tank.

Of course, like you mentioned, that doesn't really CLEAN anything, so eventually I will have to clean the grow beds.

But I guess back to my original question: Are there any recommendations on how you would clean out a grow bed that has established plants in there? I just struggle with how to do it and not completely destroy some of the plants. I guess it's going to be somewhat of a compromise: if you want to keep perennial plants, you have to be willing to sacrifice the ability to easily clean the grow bed. Correct?

Thanks for all the help. If I have time, I will post a youtube video just to show what my two year old system looks like.

[JCO]

Photos will do OK and YES, to clean a grow bed you have to take it all the way down, all media out and re-washed to clear water and the gunk removed from the empty bed. :mrgreen:

[Aloha Don]

Just seems bad to take it all the way down like that....
It seems that would eliminate all the good bacteria and nutrients that took so long to acquire.
After you do this, would you have to recycle the system prior to planting again?

[bsfman]

Just seems bad to take it all the way down like that....
It seems that would eliminate all the good bacteria and nutrients that took so long to acquire.
After you do this, would you have to recycle the system prior to planting again?

More than likely you have more than a single growbed so the bacterial population in the other grow beds NOT being cleaned is undisturbed. Also, you don't sanitize the media in the bed being cleaned. You just gently rinse it off and remove the fish turds and muck out the sludge in the bottom of the bed. A viable, healthy population of bacteria should remain.

I have done multiple GB cleanings over the last few years without any adverse impact at all on my water quality. No recycling was required.

Shoveling out 2 tons of gravel from a growbed, rinsing it, and shoveling it back in again is a hot, smelly, nasty, back breaking chore. It is also one best not undertaken without an adequate beer supply on hand! :o

[Jeff]

Touching on this subject........what are your thoughts on the suggestion which was made about FLOODING the grow bed for cleaning?

As an example, I have three 45 gallon grow beds filled with Hydroton. Let's assume that all the plants are pulled so they're empty. The suggestion was made that you can extend the stand pipe as high as you can, and then FLOOD the grow bed. Essentially, your grow bed would look like a big bowl of floating Cocoa Puffs, which you can swirl around.

So if you get a pipe or stick which is long enough to stir up the bottom, you can stir it up, and then pull out the stand pipe to drain all the sludge out. Now repeat the same steps 2-3 times, or until the water exiting the grow bed is no longer dark or murky.

I don't THINK that will have too much effect on the bacteria, since I'm pretty sure all the micro-pores of the Hydroton will still house plenty of bacteria which will pick up again. What are your thoughts on that method, and has anyone here tried it?

[Aloha Don]

That sounds easier than I pictured.
How often should the GBs be cleaned?

[JCO]

You are not going to be able to clean a grow bed very well in that fashion. You would do better by flooding the bed, swishing, swirliing and stirring the bed and allowing it to fill to overflow over the sides taking the gunk and dirty water with it. :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

Jeff, I emptied my growbed just a few months after I started and you would not believe the amount of roots down onthe growbed. Now imagine 2 years of growth and all the fish waiste, dirt and dust, dead bugs etc.. If your going to clean, bite the bullet and remove the hydroton. I think it will be like the old oil filter commercial, "pay me now, or pay me later".

[eddiemigue]

Just one thought on your perennial plantings Jeff, once you bite the bullet and clean out the GB, you may want to plant your perennials in wicking pots set in the media. You can reference JCO's very picturesque thread for a picture of something similar. This way, when you inevitably have to clean out the GB's in the future, you can minimize disturbing the perennials.

I have some smart pots (fabric 5 gal bags) that I plan to set in my hydroton bed in this manner, and I'll post pictures once i have this setup. This may give you a better idea of what I mean.

[winger4647]

Am I understanding from this thread that using a GB for a filter results in cleaning it every two years? A system should have a sump tank and biofilter BEFORE it dumps into the GB to avoid this?
Thanks

[JCO]

Am I understanding from this thread that using a GB for a filter results in cleaning it every two years? A system should have a sump tank and biofilter BEFORE it dumps into the GB to avoid this?

You hit the nail right square on the head. Learn from our previous mistakes and do it right the first time. :mrgreen:

[urbanfarmer]

Hello, what is the pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings of your water at the times around the fish deaths?

I suspect 1 died and the ammonia got out of control because it was left in there too long. The evidence may be "out with the bathwater" given all those water changes.

As mentioned previously by David, the unionized ammonia in the water increases with the pH. However, the toxicity of unionized ammonia does not increase, this remains constant. What increases is the respective proportion of speciated unionized ammonia in aqueous solution. In other words, you have the same total amount of ammoniacal nitrogen (ammonia/ammonium), but the balance of lethal ammonia to ammonium tips towards the more toxic version of the molecule in water; thus, killing the fish.

[JCO]

Thanks you "SHELL ANSWERMAN"...now come back with simple layman terms for the "PEANUT GALLERY"...what should he do to correct his problem and prevent it from happening in the future :?: :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

While I don't have any clear answers as to what happened in this situation, I do have some educated guesses.

My GUESS is the following:

1. While my system has been established with healthy fish for two years, I NEVER did any water changes. I only topped off 5-10 gallons a week to account for evaporation. Usually with these top offs, I either never used anti-chlorine/chloramine drops, or I did in small supply.

2. As the fish have gotten bigger, it caused me to feed more. This caused more waste and probably poor water quality. While the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates never appeared dangerous, it may have caused a parasitic infection in the water. Just a guess.

3. Once the first fish died and went unnoticed, it probably spiked the ammonia levels as other fish began to feed off the bodies of these fish. I wouldn't know though, because once I saw dead fish, I began to do aggressive water changes.

4. Due to never having performed a water change, I made a few careless mistakes which I believe contributed to more fish deaths. Mainly, I didn't treat the new water with Stress Coat (which also helps remove chlorine/chloramine), and I didn't acclimate that water before putting it into the system. Since fish can shock and die with as little as 7 degree water temperature difference, I killed a few fish this way.

Overall, I lost 2/3rds of all my fish. I'm down from 29 beautiful fish to only 8, and a couple of those are still being a little anti-social.

Here is what I am doing now:

- Frequent MINI Water Changes. I am changing out 10 gallons every day or two, and adding back the same amount of water which is treated with Stress Coat, and left in an open container for 24 hours.

- I added a Radial Flow Filter to help remove a lot of the fish waste from the tank

- I also began adding some SALT to the new water being added, although I have since scaled that back because I don't have a Salinity Refractometer to keep track of how salty the water is.

I haven't had a fish die in over a week now, and I don't plan on buying anymore fish until I feel more comfortable with how the system is behaving.

I thank ALL OF YOU who have contributed to this thread and helped me out.

[Aloha Don]

Is it REALLY necessary to do that much water changes???
I was under the impression that once the system cycled and stabilized, then the system would basically take care of itself with constant monitoring and tweeking from us.....

[Jeff]

Normally, you want to do a water change to maintain good water quality. This is even more recommended if you suspect that you have some kind of parasite which may be killing your fish.

Due to the problems I've had in this thread, I wanted to rule out that kind of thing, so until I feel like my system is stabilized, I am doing these MINI water changes.

Again, I stress the word MINI. My system probably has about 160 gallons of water in it, and I may only be changing 10 gallons of water at a time. That's not enough to shock the bacteria cycle, nor is it enough to shock the fish.....but over time, it should dilute and replace any water that may not be healthy for the fish (at least that's my thought on it).

I only plan to do these mini water changes for about a week or so. Then I will leave things sit and only do a 10-gallon water change once a week or so (along with topping off the system to account for evaporation).

[dead_sled]

A few questions on the Stress Coat:
1) Is it safe to eat?
2) How will it affect the bacteria?

[JCO]

Some people swear by water changes but I think that initially came from the home Aquarist who kept tropical fish. Since they did not have any sumps, grow beds or bio-filters to take care of the fish waste, it stayed in the aquarium and became toxic when left unattended. Additionally, water changes will not remove parasites from a system.

I personally have never made water changes to my indoor AP system in over 5 years. It consists of a 100 gal aquarium, bio-filter and grow bed with herbs in it. All I have ever done is add water weekly to make up for the natural loss which takes place.

Also no water has ever been removed from my KOI breeder AP system outside in the last 10 years or so. Even when I relined it with new plastic this year, I pumped it out into my swimming pool which contains yearling KOI, and then pumped it back from the pool to the pond. "THE POND", that's what I call my man-made 4,000+ fish tank I built to run my outdoor AP system.

When set up correctly and cycled, an AP system will, over time, become its own eco system and balance itself out naturally on its own.

In your case, it would seem to be by having a fish die off. This was possibly due to the fish having become larger and receiving more feed, thus producing more waste and this created the upset in the system and some of the fish, usually the weeker ones, had to go to rebalance itself.

When I started my indoor system, it had approx. 100 Ryukin goldfish about 1" long. Over time I have culled, removed and sold all but 6 which I have kept as breeders. During that growout I have lost 3 goldfish to swimbladder problems and that's all. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

JCO - Man, I wish I lived closer to you. I'd love to visit your place for a tour!

Back to the point you raised, there is no doubt in my mind that I overfed some of these guys. Instead of feeding small amounts a few times a day (as some recommend), I was feeding 1-2 super large amounts of food. Then when I lost my first initial 6+ fish, I forgot to scale back the food, so I was still feeding the same large amount as if those fish were still there to consume. I'm sure that really caused some havoc with my system.

One thing I am still not sure about is PARASITES. Let me ask you this: I still notice an occassional long CLEAR poop in the water. It looks almost like a jellyfish tentacle, is the best way to describe it.

From my online research, I have found differing answers, but the two most prevalent ones say the following:

1. Clear poop indicates a fish who may not be eating (and therefore, it's just a clear gel that comes out). Fish poo should be the same color as their food.

2. Clear poop indicates parasites

So assuming that the answer is #2, what would you do in an aquaponics setup? You don't really want to use too many chemicals to treat parasites because of the veggies, but you also don't want to treat for any diseases when it may just be something benign.

Do you ever notice just clear (and I mean CLEAR....SEE THRU) poop just floating in your water? The length of some of these clear wormy-looking poops can be up to an inch long.

[Roger L.]

Jeff, I have seen those type of poop from my tilapia when all they get is store bought fish food. When I started supplementing with duckweed it has a brown color. I would venture to guess that just like humans, what comes out reflects what went in.

[JCO]

I believe you are talking Goldfish here...and that kind of poo is not uncommon for them if being overfed.

Change up the food and add some that contains algae and cut off on the feed for about 3 days...they won't starve. When you start back to feeding them, REMEMBER...SMALL AMOUNTS no less than two times per day...what they will eat in 5 minutes. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

One thing I wanted to bring up on this topic. Every year around this time, my tomato plants develop a white mold on the stem. Do you think this white mold could be causing any issues with the fish (poisoning them)?

[attachment=0:t0snr2gy]mold.JPG[/attachment:t0snr2gy]

The plant is still producing fruit, so that's the only reason why I haven't pulled it out.......but I am curious to know your opinions on it.

[JCO]

Powdery mildew on tomatoes attacks a plant’s foliage and stems.

First off, it will not harm your fish...... 8-)

It’s more common in commercial tomato fields and greenhouses than in the home garden. But regardless of where it attacks, the fungus weakens plants and reduces productivity wherever it thrives.

Three types of powdery mildew fungus plague tomatoes: Oidium neolycopersici, Erysiphe orontii, andLeveillula taurica. Fungi are spread by airborne spores, transported by wind or pests, which land on leaves and germinate.

Powdery mildew needs living plant tissue in order to grow, but the fungi do not directly “kill” the tomato plants. Rather, they feed on the tomato plant’s cells. Yellowed (then brown) leaves remain, accompanied by white powdery growth. This “powdery mildew” (from which the disease gets its name) grows as thin layers on tomato leaf surfaces.

Three factors make tomato plants succumb to powdery mildew: environment (humidity or wet leaves), onset date (the earlier in the season, the more difficult controlling mildew), and treatment (the sooner, the better).

How to treat before symptoms appear.

One of the most effective preventative treatments is sulfur dusts and sprays . But be sure to apply the sulfur product on a still day, when temperatures are well below 90º F. Apply in morning or evening, because sulfur can burn tomato plants in the direct sunlight. If you’ve applied oils to tomato plants, wait at least two weeks before using a sulfur product.

You can also treat tomato plants preventatively with a biofungicide, made up of specially-formulated microorganisms that destroy fungi, it can help prevent mildew from infecting tomato plants. Follow label instructions.

How to treat affected plants.

Begin applications at the first sign of mildew. Horticultural oils or neem oil have helped reduce and sometimes eradicate powdery mildew on plants. Do not apply oils during a drought, when temperatures are above 90º F, or within two weeks of treating plants with a sulfur product.

In all cases, thoroughly cover plant with treatments. Repeat every 7-10 days or after rain.
Once mildew is present and progresses, it becomes more resistant to biofungicide and fungicide. Tomato Dirt best advice: treat preventatively or, if powdery mildew appears, treat as consistently as possible. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

Thanks JCO. It's good to know that it's harmless for the fish. I have never used any kind of fungal spray because I've always been paranoid that it would harm the fish. Have you ever experienced this kind of mildew before in your system?

[JCO]

Nope, I'm happy to say I have never had that malady in my grow bed...knock on wood :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

Ok, another unfortunate update. Just when I thought that I may have it under control, ANOTHER fish has died. :(

He looked otherwise healthy from afar, but upon closer examination, it looks like some of his scales were missing. I took a picture for you to look at.....doesn't it look like their missing and not simply off colored. Note that the nitrite reading looks a little purple on camera, but it really is more towards the shade of light blue:

[attachment=2:3c34woqv]FishDeadMissingScales.JPG[/attachment:3c34woqv]

The only other thing I noticed was a possible red mark on a single fin, but I don't know if that was caused after death (as opposed to being a symptom of it):

[attachment=1:3c34woqv]RedFin.JPG[/attachment:3c34woqv]

All of my water looks good to me. Here's a pic of the exact readings this morning as soon as I took the dead fish out of there:

[attachment=0:3c34woqv]Readings.JPG[/attachment:3c34woqv]

I even have the water temp heated to about 76 degrees because I read that could help. (No, I didn't heat it up too fast.)

Water changes have been frequent. Almost every day, I either ADD 10 gallons of treated/salted water.......or every other day I will empty 10 gallons from the tank, and refill with 20 gallons. That second method is sort of my "gradual water change" approach, by removing a little but adding twice the amount back.

The only thing I can think of at this point is some kind of parasite or bacteria, since my chemical readings don't look to be out of whack. My question is this:

CAN I TREAT THE ENTIRE TANK WITH SOMETHING LIKE MARACIDE OR COPPERSAFE? Normally, we would frown on putting anything into the tank which supplies water to our veggies.....but since the weather is getting colder, I'm not really eating anything from the system anyway. I mainly leave the plants there for nitrate filtration.

I'm just wondering if any of you have ever treated your entire tank with medication before, and if so, have you any thoughts on either of those two as a global application to the entire system? I don't want to harm any "healthy" fish (I only have 7 left), but at this point, even the ones who look healthy may be fighting a losing battle to my untrained eye.

[David - WI]

Your pH looks like it's off-the-scale, so you need to use the "high range" pH test.

[Jeff]

Your pH looks like it's off-the-scale, so you need to use the "high range" pH test.

That's what I thought too, but it's not though. Here is the reading from this morning of the HIGH RANGE pH:

[attachment=0:1abjg8uc]HighPh.JPG[/attachment:1abjg8uc]

Now, I am aware that pH can fluctuate from morning to evening, and I did notice a much higher pH (in the purplish color) when I did an evening test a few days ago.

(I should also add that I checked the pH of the tap water being added, and it's pretty close to neutral, so I'm not raising the pH with my water changes).

From my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong), but the nitrification process will naturally LOWER pH, but the PLANTS THEMSELVES will raise the pH. This is because the plants take out the carbon dioxide from the water making it more alkaline, thus raising the pH.

So my question is.....now that I've lost so many fish (but still have a TON of plants), should I get rid of some of the plants in order to not cause any drastic fluctuations in pH from morning-to-evening? Is that even a viable option? Or would plants have nothing to do with it?

As you can see from the above reading, my pH is probably between 7.6 - 8.0 in the morning, but it's probably only 8.4 during the night. Not sure if that's the cause or not. I am really baffled by all of these fish dying when my water seems to be fine.....doing frequent water changes with treated water, and not in high enough volume to shock the fish.

[David - WI]

I don't know, I'm far from being an expert, but it seems like you are walking a pretty fine line.

At 8.4 pH with your water at 75 degrees... even 0.2 ppm of ammonia puts you well into the "may be tolerated, but will cause long term harm" range; and if the ammonia even gets close to 0.5 ppm (say just prior to your water changes) you're in the "may be tolerated for a few days, harmful" range.

http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcnh3c.asp

I'm thinking you were doing ok until the water warmed up and the fish got bigger this summer... and then the combination of temperature and ammonia levels caught up to you. Heating the water may have contributed to this last fatality?

[Jeff]

David - Perhaps. I think I will turn off the heater and let the water sit at natural temps. Any thoughts on my other question about treating the ENTIRE TANK with some kind of global application of Maracide or Coppersafe (both which are for parasitic treatments, in case the fish have anything)?

[Roger L.]

Jeff, I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I have been following your thread since it started. It seems to me that there my be to much adjustments being made and no solid progress. If it were my system I think I would back off of all adjustments and let Mother Nature take her course. Nothing has worked and all of the manipulation a may be shocking already stressed fish. Just a newbie observation.

[Jeff]

Roger - Believe me, I have thought of that too. My biggest fear is that I may be causing more harm than good. A perfect example is the raising heat scenario. I read that raising the heat gradually until it's in the high 70's or low 80's can help the fish fight off certain diseases and parasites. While that may true, I also failed to realize that the higher the temp, the more lethal even the slightest amount of ammonia can be. So I may have actually killed fish by doing that!

I am pretty disgusted by this whole turn of events. I had the most beautiful collection of fish in there, and now I have about 7 left, and only a few of those look active and social. The rest stay hidden or just sit alone by themselves (which leads me to believe that they need help).

I have vowed to not purchase any more Koi or ornamental fish EVER for this system. If I need more fish, they will be cheap feeder fish, and I will be sure to quarantine them for a week in a salted hospital tank prior to adding them to my AP system.

[David - WI]

I don't know enough to offer any advice on "medication" except to say that I wouldn't add any medication unless there were clear symptoms of a particular ailment or infection.

All medicines have side effects... some are common, some are rare, some are well known and some are not. :cry:

[Jeff]

I was looking in my hospital tank (where I have a dying koi --- swimming sideways, upside down, listing to one side, etc). I try to feed once a day (a cooked, skinned pea, or a single minced pellet of food), but he isn't eating.

Consequently, I just saw this long, stringy poo (?) wrapped around the air stone cord:

[attachment=0:1xprfuev]photo.PNG[/attachment:1xprfuev]

I know that if a fish isn't eating, their poo would be clear.........but does this look normal, or does this ring any bells as being some sort of wormy parasite? I'm leaning towards the poo theory.

[Jeff]

Okay, I am really beginning to question my SANITY. I just went out there and ANOTHER FISH is dead! I am not used to this kind of mass die-off! This wasn't even a fish that was swimming funky or anything. It was just a fish who was being anti-social and hiding, so I knew something was wrong......but if I tried to catch him, he'd swim away very quickly.

Anyway, I just went out there and he's a floater. Completely dead.

Now, I don't know what to look for to see if I can find a clue as to what killed him. Any ideas? Here are some pics.

This first one is just him stretched on my hand. You can see that he appears to have all his scales, and his slime coat appears to be intact (he felt slimy):

[attachment=2:wq3uywlq]photo 1(2).JPG[/attachment:wq3uywlq]

This next photo, I try to highlight a white-line, if you will......sort of a whitish are on the top of his spine. It doesn't look like ich or anything that I'm aware of. I noticed it for awhile, and other fish acting the same way have it. I can't tell if it's just part of fish changing color, or if that is from rubbing against something, or if it's a SIGN of what could be killing them:

[attachment=1:wq3uywlq]photo 2(2).JPG[/attachment:wq3uywlq]

Finally, the only other thing I can see which may look anamolous is next to one eye, there appears to be some kind of "bump" or wart like thing. Hard to tell what it is:

[attachment=0:wq3uywlq]photo 3(1).JPG[/attachment:wq3uywlq]

Either way, that's ANOTHER fish dead. The only thing I did today was add a mere five gallons of treated water to my 110+ gallon system).

Here's my line of thinking, and correct me if I'm wrong. I think that FOR THE MOST PART, if a fish is feeling sick (due to poor water quality), then by correcting the water, it should hopefully begin to improve. If it doesn't, then it means the fish either had irrefutable harm done internally (like Dropsy), or it's some kind of parasite that has taken root and killing them regardless of the water quality.

That is my fear. My fear is that now that I BELIEVE that I am controlling everything correctly (temps, daily water changes, daily water testing, etc), and yet still, the fish are still dropping like flies and I have no control over it. I have no idea if it's something in my grow beds doing it, or what!

[Jeff]

I am also attaching a photo to show you the sick koi, in case you have any suggestions. He hasn't eaten anything (that I can see) for at least 5 days. He lists to one side, and when he swims, it's usually in side-winding circles.

xFXnHGCyt8Q

[JCO]

If you have the KOI in an aquarium with a clear glass bottom, that's the reason he is swimming crazy on his side and in circles. He is trying to go deeper in the tank and can't. Turn off the light, cover the top, back and sides and give him a place to hide...stop changing the water...stop adding salt or anything else. He is really stressed out. Leave him alone other than to put in a 3 or 4 KOI food pellets per day. Hopefully he will survive his stress and any nitrite toxicity he may have suffered..

As for your other fish dying, it could be from nitrite toxicity poisioning. Nitrites got real high for a period of time which is toxic to fish and causes damage to the gills which is non-reversable and fish will become weak over a short time thereafter and die at different intervals.

Disease. Inspect the lost fish carefully. Do you see any evidence of diseases? Blood in the fins or under the scales is usually a sign of ammonia poisoning, but it can also be a bacterial infection. Do you see any signs of something on the fish that is three-dimensional? White spots, perhaps, or "threads" hanging from the fish? These can be parasites such as Ich or Anchor Worms. Do you see tufts of white cottony material on the fish's skin, gills or mouth? This could be fungus. Fungus infections can become so bad that they block the fish's mouth, preventing him from eating. Death follows soon after. Again, your first intervention should be several large water changes. This reduces the number of free-swimming parasites, and freshens up the water, which might have been the original cause of the fish falling prey to disease. Treat the symptoms appropriately. For parasites, my favorite treatment is Coppersafe. There are others. For fungal infectiions, you might consider using Acriflavine or Mardel's Maroxy.

Toxic chemicals. Have you recently sprayed your kitchen or bathroom for roaches or ants? Has an exterminator recently treated your house for spiders? All insecticides are dangerous to fish to some degree or another, and it often does not take very much of the substance to kill fish. If you plan to spray your house or kitchen for any kind of insects, it is wise to first seal the top of the aquarium with plastic, and turn off any air pumps. Failing this, cover the aquarium with a large blanket. Allow at least 3 or 4 hours for the toxic fumes to subside before removing the cover from the aquarium. If your filter permits, running some fresh activated carbon in your filter box for a few days will greatly reduce the risk to fish.

Unexpected toxins. Before your fish began to die, did you dip your fingers or hands in your aquarium? Did you wash your hands thoroughly with plain castile soap before putting your hands in the aquarium? If you are a woman, do you use scented lotions on your hands, or do you spray colognes on your wrists? If you are a man, did you shave this morning, and if so, did you use a scented aftershave by splashing it on your face with your hands? These scented substances can be exceptionally toxic to fish, and can kill fish quickly. Before you dip your hands in your aquarium for any reason, first thoroughly wash your hands and arms with a plain unscented soap containing no antibacterial substances. Rinse your hands thoroughly, and then perform your aquarium maintenance. After working on your aquarium, wash your hands and arms again, only this time do use an antibacterial soap or detergent. Rinse thoroughly, to prevent infecting yourself with anything in the tank.

Unexpected chemicals in your water. Municipal water departments occasionally add chemicals to kill algae or to prevent scaling inside the distribution lines. They usually do this on a regular schedule. Call your water department and find out what day of the month they add any extra chemicals. For example, they may make this a regular practice on the 5th of the month. Then, avoid water changes for 5 days after the addition of these chemicals, to prevent their introduction to your aquarium.

Extra chlorine. During the summer, bacteria in drinking water can become a serious threat. The United States is rarely affected by water-born diseases because water treatment plants aggressively treat municipal water with chlorine or chloramine. If you can smell chlorine in your tap water, that means the chlorine levels are very high. During summer months when they are adding extra chlorine, you may want to double the dosage of your dechlorinator. Simple dechlorinators (Yamato's No-Chlor, Wardley's Chlor-Out) cannot be overdosed. Even if you used ten times more dechlorinator, no harm would come to fish or other inhabitants of the aquarium. Don't be afraid to double-dose on dechlorinator during the summer. It will prevent your fish from being damaged or killed by chlorine.

Sorry, that all I can come up with. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

I appreciate all your comments and that gives me some things to think about. I can clarify a few things about the koi.

That particular koi was swimming like that BEFORE I transferred him into that hospital tank. I had come home from an overnight trip, and checked the aquaponics tank on a Sunday evening. I noticed him swimming in spiraling circles. Imagine a plane which only has one wing and how it may fly. It would spin. That's how this fish was acting. Prior to that, I could tell "something" was wrong. He was keeping to himself.....only staying on the bottom of the tank......not socializing.....etc.

But I digress......

So Monday, I immediately go to Petco and purchase an airstone, a filter, and some Marcyn Two for any bacterial infections. I set up this extra tank (used to house a turtle back in the day), and that's the tank you see in the video. It IS reflective which I agree could be an issue......but that's not the cause of him swimming that way (or at least, it's not what started it). He was swimming this way prior to even going in the tank which is why he was there in the first place.

I don't think he's eaten anything, and all he does is swim on his side.

I will try to put in a place that he can hide to possibly provide some shelter and less stress.

Aside from that, I don't know what else can be causing my other fish to die. I am leaning to one of two things:

1. Either it's a parasite of some kind. In that case, I don't know what to do. I don't want to treat the entire system with a global application of Coppersafe unless it won't harm any healthy fish. If you think it will be fine, then I have no problems putting Coppersafe into the system. I just don't want it to kill any nitrification bacteria or the plants in the grow beds.

2. If it's not a parasite killing the fish, then it may be pH swings. If that's the case, let me ask you this. During the day, when plants are sucking up CO2 from the water, the pH will naturally rise. At night, when there is no sun, the opposite happens and the pH will drop. My question is this. If you have very little fish (producing CO2), but have a TON of plants (sucking up CO2), are the pH swings going to be greater than if I had fewer plants? In other words, if you have more plants than the fish can support, does that increase pH swings? I wouldn't THINK so, but then again, I have no idea what could cause pH to swing so high when I'm not adding other chemicals (besides Stress Coat Dechlorinator and Salt), and my tap water is pH neutral.

Any additional thoughts on these points would be appreciated.

[Jeff]

This is beginning to sound like a broken record. I woke up this morning and another juvenile Koi is dead.

Looks otherwise healthy when I inspect him. I suspect if it's not some parasite, then perhaps it's a pH swing from day to night. I have a LOT of plants, and now barely any fish. Could that be enough to swing pH to toxic levels?

I did a pH test first thing this morning, and if I am reading it correctly, it looks like it's around 7.8:

[attachment=1:254ve6wc]photo 2(3).JPG[/attachment:254ve6wc]

And here's a pic of the fish. It should be noted that this is a fish from the main tank (where all the fish are dying one by one).

[attachment=0:254ve6wc]photo 1(3).JPG[/attachment:254ve6wc]

In addition to the other questions, if you think it's a high pH problem, should I just get some pH down or hunt down some HCl? If so, how much would I apply?

I am really trying to "not do anything", but it seems like the more I don't do anything, the more nothing happens and fish die. Then I try to do something, and fish still die. So if it's not the pH, then maybe it's something in the grow beds (anaerobically speaking)?

[Jeff]

Another question I have: why does this always happen in the middle of the night? Is it because fish are less active and more susceptible to dying? Or could that be a CLUE as to what's happening (again with the pH swing theory, where pH will be lowest during the night but highest during the day)?

And also.......do you think getting more FISH (like cheap feeder fish) would help with any pH swings? More fish could equal more CO2 for the plants, which would also mean more ammonia to feed the bacteria cycle which ultimately brings DOWN the pH. I just fear getting more fish if there is a problem with the system.....but at the same time, perhaps more fish could balance it out by having more activity in the tank for the system to function (as well as add some energy into the tank for the few remaining fish in there).

[Jeff]

Okay - I think I found the problem but I really need your advice. I am THINKING that the problem is definitely related to pH. If you look a few posts above this, you will see the readings I took in the MORNING, where the pH looks to be about 7.4-7.8.

I just took an evening reading (below), and it looks to me like it's around 8.4-8.8 if I had to guess:

[attachment=0:153we320]HighPh (2).JPG[/attachment:153we320]

So this goes back to my previous questions, which are still unanswered:

- Would REMOVING PLANTS help with this large pH swing? The theory would be less plants would mean less CO2 pulled from the water which would keep the pH more acidic (and low). Keep in mind I only have SIX small/medium fish in this 110 gallon system, just to give you an idea of what's swimming in there.

- Would ADDING MORE FISH help with the large pH swing? The theory behind that would be more fish == more nutrients for the nitrifying bacteria, which lowers the pH during the bacteria cycle. Perhaps not having enough fish to provide enough nutrients to the plants is causing these high pH swings during the day.

What are your thoughts based on the above chemical readings?

[David - WI]

This is all I've go for you, the whole thing is worth reading: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/#11

[Jeff]

Thanks David - I am going to read that over right now. While I do, let me ask you this. In YOUR system, do you notice as wide a range in pH swings? I personally never knew that pH could swing do drastically from daytime to nighttime, so I am left to wonder if my system was always like that, or if it's more extreme now due to an imbalance of plants vs fish.

So does your system swing that wildly? If you said no, then I know that there's definitely something amiss with mine. However, if yours also has that range of swing during a 24 hour period, then that would tell me that it's normal and not something I should be focusing on for the problem.

[David - WI]

I honestly don't know... I've never gone to work at night to check the pH; plus I'm only testing ideas right now so I've been moving plants & crayfish around and mine is in a climate controlled building with almost all artificial light - so day & night don't mean much.

I honestly think that if you ran more in the mid-to-high 6's then your "spikes" might only go into the mid-to-high sevens and you could forget about ammonia toxicity?

[David - WI]

By the way, last week I had 6,000 gallons of water cycled and after 3 weeks of fighting (and 3-1/2 gallons of HCL) the pH bounce... the tank ruptured and leaked 5,000 gallons out on my floor overnight.
So, I made a quick silicone patch and refilled the tank.



And the patch didn't hold and I leaked another 5,000 gallons on the floor the next night. So, I'm here more for moral support than "expert" advice.

[JCO]

Forget the plants..they will survive without the fish...do you have another receptical you can house the fish in out of the AP system...anything that will hold water with a sponge filter and air stone. Do not add salt to it, just the fish then we will see if anymore parish. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

Forget the plants..they will survive without the fish...do you have another receptical you can house the fish in out of the AP system...anything that will hold water with a sponge filter and air stone. Do not add salt to it, just the fish then we will see if anymore parish. :mrgreen:

JCO - Yes and no. Here's what I have done thus far (it's literally a day-to-day thing, with new theories and approaches to this perplexing problem).

I had an old turtle terrarium tank which hasn't been used for years. It's about 20 gallons to the top. I cleaned that out, filled it with about 15 gallons of water, and put in that really sick (dying) koi, as well as my last ornamental fantail goldfish who looked a little lethargic. When I set that tank about (almost a week ago), I did have salt in the water 0.3ppm. No more salt has been added to that tank. I also have been treating that tank with Maracyn Two, just as an anti-bacterial precaution. The tank has an airstone and a filter for moving the water around.

After almost a week, both fish look the same in there. I am wondering when this koi is going to die because he appears to just be hanging in there. I don't see him eating or improving. As for the fantail, he looks the same as well, but he's eating and swimming around, so I'm not concerned about him. He will move back into the main tank either today or tomorrow.

Now onto the main tank.........

My current theory as to the problem has NOTHING to do with ammonia, or disease (although I agree that some fish may be fighting some kind of illness due to the past issues). My current theory is that my fish are slowly dying from large DIURNAL PH SWINGS.

You see, I NEVER considered to check PH twice a day, nor did I know that pH could swing so wildly in a 24 hour period. It appears that my pH was swinging more than 1.0 point, from the high 8's to the low-mid 7's. That meant that at night, when the water was very alkaline, it would change to very acidic in a matter of 10-12 hours. I think this may have been the main cause of either KILLING the fish outright, or making them sick and weak to succumb to something else later on.

MY MISTAKE - I assumed that three powerful grow beds returning water to the tank would be enough "aeration" to prevent these large swings. Apparently, I may be wrong about that. So last night, I went out and purchased a 4-line air pump, made for 170 gallon tank, and I put all four lines into the tank at full blast. From my research (thanks to the article David posted above), it says that AERATION will help minimize large pH swings.

I never knew that! So here's where we stand. I am currently aerating the CRAP out of my water. I have that air pump running 24/7, in addition to the 3 grow beds returning the water during the siphon cycle, and my Radial Swirl Filter constantly pouring water back into the tank as well.

We will see if that will minimize the pH swings and help the fish.

That's where I am right now. I don't know if the pH swing was the initial cause of all these fish deaths, but I do know that it's a PROBLEM regardless, and it needs to be corrected. That's my focus right now and I will keep you posted on how it goes. So far, this morning I had no dead fish (although I'm only down to 5 in that main tank).

[Roger L.]

Jeff, I just thought of something that relates to your last post. All of this began to happen after two years of successful operation right? If so, have you cleaned the grow beds out in that period of time? If not the water may be channeling thus losing some aireation properties you enjoyed before. This would all match the facts that you have ph swings and the heat factor all effecting the oxygen content of the water. Just another newbie thought.

[Jeff]

Roger - I did consider the problem happening with the grow beds (since they have never been cleaned out), but I never thought that it would do with aeration. I was thinking perhaps it was something anaerobic or something poisoning the water........but now that I know for a fact that my pH swings are really drastic, it would make sense that something effected the CO2 levels of the water.

I honestly think that may have been the issue: lots of fish, hotter temps = less O2 in the water and more CO2......which lead to big acidic/alkaline swings in short 12 hour periods, and that stressed/killed the fish off. It was like a perfect storm.

Hopefully, with this new 170 gallon 4-line air pump, it will stir the air from the bottom of the tank 24 hours a day, and help equalize the CO2 levels. I will keep you all posted.

[Roger L.]

Still need to clean those beds. Take one off line and start cleaning. When that one is done, move to the next. Good luck.

[Jeff]

Still need to clean those beds. Take one off line and start cleaning. When that one is done, move to the next. Good luck.

Yeah, my plan is to clean during the cooler months when they're relatively empty and not producing. I may have mentioned it previously, but two of my grow beds have established plants in there (peppers) which I don't want to "kill" by yanking the root ball out of the bed. I fear it would kill the plants if I do that.

Now, one bed that I have doesn't have any peppers in it, so it will be easy to empty and clean (well.....easy for a 300 pound tub filled with hydroton!). The others though.......I am thinking about flooding it, stirring around the floating media (away from the plant roots), and then draining into an empty part of my yard. I would repeat this until most of the gunk in there is flushed out and the water is coming out clearer.

I know that's not the best approach to really "CLEAN" the beds, but it may be my best shot without removing the established plants in there.

[Jeff]

Just an update on things.........I have had the new 170 gallon airpump running in the tank 24/7 for two days now. I still see a large pH swing (from 8.6 at dusk to 7.4 at dawn). Do you know if this is normal or should there be something else I do to help buffer this?

Most products on the market (like pH down) are only temporary things, so I really don't want to use those since I'm trying to tackle the root of the problem. During the day, the plants pull all the CO2 out of the water (driving the pH so high)......but at night, when photosynthesis isn't taking place, the CO2 drives the pH back down (to 7.4). I have read that fish should only experience a .4 to .8 change in pH.......and my swings are greater than that.

Hopefully it all balances out soon. I don't know if that's even the root of my problem, or if the problem has been fixed yet (as far as improved water quality)......but I will keep you all posted.

[JCO]

Jeff, I wish I had an answer for you but at this time I am as mystified as you are. Sorry, hope you find your answer soon. :mrgreen:

[Jeff]

Thanks JCO - I really do appreciate all the help you've given me up to this point. I think the problem is probably with the pH buffer (I think it's called KH???)......which is allowing such huge swings in pH from day to night.

I also have a theory (although I don't know if it's true......you can give me your thoughts), but if a system has TOO MANY PLANTS, then they could add more CO2 into the water at night time which, depending on how many plants you have, it could really impact the pH swings.

So I am thinking of cutting back on some of my plants with hopes that it will not cause the pH to swing so wildly. Aside from that (and the additional aeration I've already done), I don't know what else to do.

I read about buffering the KH of the water, but I don't know if that's a good idea, nor do I want to keep messing with a system to make it worse. I am hoping that somehow, someway, it will naturally equalize and stabilize.

[Roger L.]

Jeff, while you take one grow bed at a time offline to clean them you will be removing the amount of plants in the system. You can use that time to verify your latest theory.

[Jeff]

Well it's been a couple of days, so I thought I would post my progress.

I am not seeing the wild pH swings anymore. I attribute this to the following

- I've added a LOT more water to my system. Normally, my fish tank has a 110 gallon capacity but it's usually only filled about HALFWAY. So I have filled it up with treated water, roughly 2/3 of the capacity.

- Every couple of days, I have been dumping about 10-20 gallons from my Radial Flow Filter (which captures some of the solids and crap from the water), and then replace this with 10-20 gallons of new, treated water.

- I have noticed a fine brown film along the sides and bottom of the tank, which I have NEVER bothered to mess with. Now I am using a sponge and periodically wiping it off. This creates a little murkiness to the water, but the filter and pump seem to clear it up within 30 minutes or so.

Since the wide pH swings are not happening, I have noticed the 4 remaining fish begin to swim around more. They're still not social (coming up to my hand), and they act very skittish if I approach the tank......but that's a far cry from the behavior I had been seeing. At least now, if I sneak up on them, I can see them floating near the surface, or at least "not hiding." They still aren't "PLAYING" with each other, but I'm not too worried about that.

My only concern is that the used to come out when they saw me about to feed them, and now, they still are very hesitant. I have only been feeding a little food once or twice a day, but I may cut back to once every other day.

I have also been pruning any dead or dying branches from my large tomato bushes, since less branches means less plant, which means less CO2 being returned to the water at night time.

Aeration has been going full blast with the new 4-line air pump I got.

My only remaining "tragedy" is a sick koi which can't swim right. He's been hanging on for almost two weeks now. (I thought he would have died a long time ago). He has began losing scales, and he can only swim in a tight circle when he's not laying on his side......but he's hanging in there. So I gave him a SALT DIP last night (3% salt solution for 30 seconds). It didn't really change his behavior, but he didn't get worse. If anything, he became more active (probably to the irritation that the salt has on the skin, but I figure it could help kill any parasites if he's afflicted with them).

Here's a video of him BEFORE I applied the SALT DIP:

RMN9YK86o5s

More posts to come soon after I see how things happen.

[Jeff]

I just started a new topic to isolate an issue.....but it may be related to this. Basically, I had a "dead" fish come back to life. Read it here: Dead Fish Brought Back to Life --- How and Why? (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?1920-Dead-Fish-Brought-Back-to-Life-How-and-Why)

I wanted to make it a separate issue because this current one is going on 8 pages, and I felt it would be best to handle that as a separate discussion.

[Jeff]

For anyone who has been following this thread, you know that I have been going crazy trying to figure out what has been killing my fish. I've suspected ammonia (even though the readings were low)......I have suspected pH swings (which still may be a factor).......but I think I found something which is a HUGE RED FLAG.

Over a year ago, I purchased a homemade DIY water heater. It works great. You simply set the temp you want the water to be, and it will shut on and off from a built in thermostat, maintaining the temperature. This was a good investment last winter, and once the weather warmed up, I just left it in the water because it was something the fish could swim around.

Anyway, I pulled this thing out of the water a few days ago and I was HORRIFIED to see what it looked like. In fact, I filmed a video of it once I took it apart:

sOfwRayQrfA

I don't talk in this video, but you can see the following:

- Something that looks like a RUST material. Granted, this could be dried fish poop since it's been out of my tank for a couple days now. So I can't tell if it's poop or metallic rust. Either way, it's not something healthy for fish to harbor that in the tank. My guess is that it's RUST because it looks more orange than brown.

- More alarmingly, you can see the bare COPPER of the heating coil. This is because the silver coating is flaking off quite easily. In the video, I can easily scrape it off with my fingernail and it leaves a fine, powdery coat on my hands.

I can only assume that is TOXIC to fish as well. Since pulling it from the tank, I've had no fish deaths, and they're starting to look more social.

This may explain why no matter what I did, no matter how many water changes or water treatment, the fish kept dying....because this festering thing was in the water the entire time!

[dead_sled]

Very interesting. It could be metal poisoning as well. I don't think the ph swings helped either.

[David - WI]

That's kind of weird, but I just saw a water heater element for sale with a notice saying:
*THIS IS A RESTRICTED ITEM IN CA, LA, MD, VT. IT CANNOT BE USED FOR POTABLE WATER APPLICATIONS.* which would make me really suspicious about using it in a fish tank.

[Aloha Don]

Did you ever use the sea shell grit or egg shells to try to buffer the ph?