Frustrating

[Roger L.]

I knew going in to this project not to expect bumper crops with a new system but this has got me confused. I have planted lettuce, cauliflower, broccoli, celery, peas, cucumber, summer squash, and kidney beans. I expected the lettuce, cauliflower and the broccoli to do the best and the others to struggle. It has been just the opposite. The lettuce get 1 1/2" and stops, the broccoli has only gotten 3" and stopped, the cauliflower is 1/2" and pathetic looking. The celery has never come up. The kidney beans, summer squash and cucumber plants are up and growing but no sign of producing anything. The peas are the only thing producing and if I get a serving full I will be surprised. My system has yet to cycle either. Nitrates came up (barely) about 2 weeks ago and then back to 0. A few days ago they came up to 5 for about 3 days and once again back to 0 now. PH is at 7.4, ammonia at .25, nitrites are at .25 now (had been above 5). PH had dropped off some but I adjusted that back up, ammonia and nitrites got high but I got that adjusted back down. I started this project on 5/25/13. The fish are doing fine and are growing so I seem to have that part right. I've added more light so that is not an issue. I can't even seem to get duckweed to grow either inside or outside. Do I just have a black thumb?

[keith_r]

couple of things..
plant things that are in season for your zone.. many varieties of lettuce are spring plants.. broccoli and cauliflower are fall crops..i had trouble with cuke's my first year, second year it got so crazy i had to pull the cucumber plants out of the bed (they grew up into the ceiling and started wrapping around wires and stuff) - and i did not have time to hand pollinate them
have you tried planting by "moon phase"? some people swear by it.. i think i've had some coincidental luck regarding the moon..
it's going to take a few months for your plants to reflect the conditions of the growbeds, don't get discouraged..

[Roger L.]

Kieth, do seasons really matter when growing indoors? I forgot to mention my system is in my basement. Fairly constant mid 70's year round.

[Oliver]

You don't have enough Nitrates to support any plants, let alone the ones you have planted. Plant only leafy greens once you get to 40 ppm nitrates and flowering plants only after you are above 80 ppm and on your way to 100 ppm nitrates.

Also, tell us about your lighting, as in what type and how many watts per square foot.

Oliver

[Roger L.]

My first post were lost in one of the site crashes but I am fairly certain I was told to plant as soon as the system would support fish, the sooner the better. Can't prove that but by memory that's what I remember. As far as lights I have 3, 2 bulb, 48" fluorescent fixtures with 6500 lumen (daylight) bulbs at 40 watts per. I figure 240 watts over 12 square feet of grow bed. I tried some blue/red LED's but they didn't seem to do much of anything.

[Oliver]

It calculates that you have about 20 Watts per square foot. Not nearly enough. I assume these are T-8s, which put out about 80 lumens per Watt. You need about 50 Watts per square foot for leafy greens to do well.

The 6500 lumens and 40 Watts X 2 bulbs looks like what you have, although most 48" T-8s are 35 Watts. They are good for leafy greens and should be only a few inches above the plants; but as with all fluorescents, they do not concentrate their light so it can be directed over a distance, which is required in order to grow taller plants, such as those that flower. Go with the highest temperature of bulb you can get, not the highest lumen rating. Lumens are measured at 550 nm, which is green. Not a very usable color to grow plants. Higher temperature bulbs will have more blue, which is what you need for leafy greens.

As to the LED grow lights, most are designed for the cannabis business, which is flowering plant and in need of lots of red light. Not very good for leafy greens; but if you have enough wattage and the proper lenses on the bulbs, they will work well for your flowering plants, once your system is mature enough to grow them.

In order to get enough DLI (Daily Light Integral, the total light needed in a 24 hour period) for leafy greens, you will need about 50 Watts per square foot for at least 8 hours per day. If your light is less than this, then you will see the plants growing long legs trying to reach for the light that isn't there. Much less than this and they may not do well at all.

With your Nitrates where they are, if you have properly sized your grow beds to your fish tank and your fish are small, it is best not to plant very much in your grow bed until your fish grow out some. Your Nitrate levels will tell you if you have the right amount of veggies in the system. Think of the fish as being full grown and grow bed(s) full of veggies and now scale back those plants to amount of fish size you currently have in your tank.

Oliver

[Roger L.]

Is it possible that the water level in my grow bed is to low for the system to cycle? I have thought I was getting there a couple of times but then everything falls off again. I check the water everyday and make any adjustments necessary. I started this project in mid-May.

[David - WI]

I think that, like Oliver said, you're probably short of light.

From everything I've been able to read and/or test even the "leafy greens" like lettuce need a bare minimum of 25w per square-foot for 16 hours a day (or 50w per square-foot for 8 hours a day would be the same amount of light-hours).

With 20w or less per square foot you need 20+ hours of light per day; but then some plants want a "dark" period which could only be 3 - 4 hours in that case.

Just for an inexpensive "test" you could try pointing a halogen flood light at your grow bed for a week... the PAR meter (the "good" light wavelengths) goes through the roof - even a couple feet below the 110w GE halogen floods we have in the building. It's like 10x the PAR reading of the T-5's but from much further away.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcuIlAQyaD8Dg9Y_mD_ql8mE5WEvg 1ea_TMo8KUh8ycrKG5r7zM_ffwbRqZ661IQExaM1wUv9k&usqp=CAY

[Roger L.]

I have agreed with Oliver about the light and will ad more. My first concern now is getting the cycle to finish/begin. I have never had a major spike in nitrates, a couple of minor blips but never a major spike. My ph dropped, my ammonia dropped and nitrites and nitrates went to 0. Fish seem to be happy and no signs of stress.

[Roger L.]

Well here is what has happened. After feeling sorry for myself for a while I got up off my butt and decided to rework the system from all the things I've learned here on DIY. I tore out all the plants and took out most of the expanded clay. The plants didn't grow good on top of the system but they sure had roots. I have replumbed to include a bell siphon to help get some air into the grow bed. I have a couple more modifications to make to make up for shoddy workmanship and then will get the expanded clay back in. I will not grow anything until the nitrates get to 40ppm, and then only leafy greens. When I get to 80ppm I will then open up to a wider variety of veggies. While I am waiting for the system to cycle I will be buying my T-8 fixtures for the lighting and add in a few floods that can concentrate on plants that need more light. I sure wish I had been a part of this group before I built, but I got enough general information before I built it to make me think it was easy and I would be eating veggies and fish in no time.

Thanks for all the tips, advice and encouragement.

[JCO]

Roger, it truly isn't rocket science however there are some hard and fast rules that pretty well govern AP and once you learn them and work within them it will all come together.

Don't give up the ship 'til you see the whites of their eyes or something of that sort :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

While I was reworking the system I hard piped the pump and added control valves, and a bypass that I figured I might as well run through a homemade filter. Yesterday I bought 4 new T8 fixtures to put above the grow bed and I have 1 spotlight and am going to get 3 more to mount one on each side to use as needed. Now I just need some nitrates.

[Aloha Don]

I like your setup...
I do not see any fish in there...are they hiding...
I may have missed it but what type/how many fish do you have?

[Roger L.]

I have 16 guppies, water test fish, and then added 30 Tilapia. I have lost 6 Tilapia for unknown reasons and I squashed one trying to net him. All had nice words said over them before I flushed, an extra few for the one I squashed. Largest is about 4" now.

[dead_sled]

Tell us about the filter. I can't quite make it out in the picture.

[Roger L.]

I used 2 old peanut jars that I had sitting around. Ran a stand pipe in the top one that feeds the bottom one. The bottom one has an outlet pipe about 2/3 up the side. Initially first stage should capture solids and if not hopefully the bottom one will. If neither captures them then I'm no worse off than before and legitimizes years of drinking beer and eating peanuts.

[Aloha Don]

I may be thinking about this wrong but...
Wouldn't you want the filter before the GBs so no particles would clog your holes there or get into the GB?
Just asking....

[JCO]

That was my question but you beat me to it. :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

Yes it should be. It was a last minute thought and figured taking out some anywhere in the system was better than nothing. When I add another grow bed I will be adding it in at the appropriate position. Will probably make a bigger one when I do that to slow the water flow more.

[Roger L.]

YAHOO!!! I finally have nitrates up above 40ppm. I, in my perpetual state of impatience, thought it would never come around. Thanks to all who have guided me though the rework process. Fill and drain working well and have doubled my lighting with spotlights on each side of the grow bed soon to come.

[Aloha Don]

You have your lights on a pulley system?

[Roger L.]

No. Just small link chain and hooks so it is very adjustable. 10" has a bigger length which can be used also. Between the 2 chain sizes I can get the lights just about anywhere.

[Aloha Don]

When you get time, please give a comparative description from your old system to your new that allows your nitrates to rise this time around....
I just bought a test kit and although my system appears to be functioning ok, the levels suggest that it could be doing a lot better...

[Roger L.]

Well Don I think my impatience and ignorance is what my problem was the first time around. I got the idea of aquaponics from another site that told me how to build a constant flow system but not much else. So I built it and put it in my basement, put 2 T5 shop lights over top of it and planted a full bed of veggies. I stumbled upon this sight at sometime during all of the construction but but did not begin to read it until everything was already underway. I figured it would all work without much research. The only thing that got me reading was I did not want to kill fish so I started reading and looking at all the systems. Most of the systems were fill and drain and fully cycled. I started out fishless cycling and got a little blip of nitrates so I added fish. They stayed alive and I thought everything was coming together so in came the Tilapia. The plants, some of them anyway, came in and I was excited. Some plants seemed to flourish and some did not. All nitrates went away and I could get no flowers to open to pollinate and the leafy greens grew about 2" and quit. Miserable failure. So by now I had learned a lot by following the conversations on the forum and by reading "DIY Aquaponics" and Oliver's Aquaponics 101. So I then ripped out all the plants and removed the expanded clay, not easy for a guy with a severely bad back. Since then I have built my bell siphon and got the timing correct and replaced the lighting with6 T8's with spotlights coming. I have had to wait for the nitrates to get to 40ppm before planting anything and then only leafy greens. I'm not sure any of the rework added to the creation of nitrates other than removing the plants that were a constant drain to the nitrates. I have waited and waited for the nitrates and finally they are here. I need more grow bed to balance the system and now that the water has come in I am going to add additional growing area.

[Aloha Don]

Impatience is the one thing that gets me too.
I need to learn to stop tinkering and wait....... :?

[Roger L.]

Wow, when a system decides to cycle it really cycles. Nitrates above the 160ppm level. Nitrites at 0. Ammonia is at .5. PH at 7. I couldn't be more happy. I am still going to go slowly with the plants. I have spinach, broccoli and lettuce planted to see how the growth goes. My solar panel is in place and I have the air pump and a light on that, the pump and grow lights on house power.

[Aloha Don]

Good job...

[JCO]

OK, where's the photos of all these veggies that should be growing like carzy from all the nutrients they are receiving :?: :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

That's the aggravation JCO. That's why I started the thread about me and my black thumb called "Starting plants" in plants in general.

[JCO]

What are you sayng, that your veggies are not enjoying the high nutrient levels :?: :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

The lettuce has gotten better, the broccoli came out and stalled and the spinach will not even start.

[JCO]

My Father was killed in the South Pacific during WWII 6 days before I was born. My mother didn't know what to do so I was raised by my Grandparents. My Grandfather and I use to go fishing quite often (as often as field work would permit). He some how always managed to catch almost all the fish (I was lucky to catch 1 or 2). :shock: :o

One day I asked him why I couldn't catch as many fish as him when I was actually sitting right beside him. His response was "You're not holding your mouth right". :?

With that weighing heavy on my mind, I began to secretly watch him out of the corner of my eye and try to memick the way he held his mouth. ;)

It was years later, long after his passing that I thought about what he had done and that he had intentionally been making funny faces just for my benefit and what a kick he must have gotten out of watching me trying to do the same riduculous faces with my mouth as he had done. ;)

Then again maybe there was something to what he said because I never was able to catch as many fish as he did even when I was 18 years old and getting ready to leave home and him still "SITTING RIGHT BESIDE ME" on that same ditch bank we had fished on from the time I was able to toddle.

We had the same kind of cane poles, shame kind of hooks and the worms, well I was the one that had dug them up and they all looked the same to me. :roll:

Could there have been something to what he said :?:

My point Roger:-

"MAYBE YOU AREN'T HOLDING YOUR MOUTH RIGHT!" :lol: :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

:o how's this? :? Or maybe this? ;) he'll, I'll try anything once!

[dead_sled]

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!! :shock: :o

JCO's next informational publication:

How to Hold Your Mouth for a Successful AP System

:lol: :mrgreen: I can't wait to read this!

[JCO]

No reading necessary....it will be all graphics :shock: :o :lol: :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

Big ones so I don't have to hold the iPad so far away to see them please! :D :lol: :P :geek:

[JCO]

You have an iPad....WOW :shock: :o ...I'm still locked into my Comodore64...1 pixel at a time :( ...someday when I grow up I'll have an iPad and an iPhone...just your wait. :| :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

Come on JCO. Everybody knows you truckers make money hand over fist. All you do is sit, steer and make money.

[JCO]

Before April this year I was getting in anywhere from 40 to 45 hours per week...then Obamacare came along and the USPS Mail contractor I work for did what most corporations are doing...cutting hours so they have no full time employees.

My hours have been cut to 31 hours per week.

Thats a total of 468 hours per year shortfall which is equal to a $10,300.00 loss in income. If you include the 260 hours at time and one half...that's another $8,580.00 income shortfall for a total of $18,880.00 income loss for the year...but Obamacare is really great for those that don't work for a living.

Yep, this 70 year old trucker is really rollin' in the dough

I truly do not understand how no one can put a stop what OBAMA and his mafia are doing to America :(

[multifasited]

There ARE too many, too MANY {entitled } HOLDING THIER MOUTH RIGHT!!!

[Roger L.]

JCO, the congress and representatives are as crooked as Obama. The whole system needs an overhaul, but you know who would have to decide that. People must stand up and say we will not take this crap anymore. Revolution is unfortunately what it will take but I'm not sure there are enough of us to over-ride the sheeple.

[JCO]

You truly said a "MOUTH FULL THERE" :lol: :mrgreen:

[semi]

this was a helpful topic for me. In my month old system, I have had 4 watercress replants limping along and i suspect retarding the nitrate development. Amm=2, nitrite. 5, & nitrate. 25or so for nearly a week. So, I have pulled the plants. I'll post results as they develop. Thanks for the thread Roger:-) Good light info too, Oliver:-)