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Nikenik
07-11-2013, 06:27 PM
I have a few questions about my planed indoor aquaponic system. Instead of just "spamming" the forum with 5-6 different threads it thought to put them in the same thread...

I'm planning to use a 65 liter IKEA-box as a fishtank and have two 55 liter's boxes as growbeds. (Yes, swede's like Ikea ;) )
http://www.ikea.com/se/sv/images/products/samla-lada__0144440_PE303768_S4.JPG

The fish will be goldfish to start with.

1. Is that tank/growbed ratio ok? 65l FT : 110l GB, almost 2:1.

2. Should the fish tank be transparent or black for the best fish health?

3. How many goldfish should I get?

4. Won't the water level in the fish tank rise and fall a lot in such a system? Should I add one more water tank to have a constant level in the fish tank? I'm thinking about the health of the fish...

5. If a add a large fluidized bed filter can I run the system without fish and just "feed" the plants with seaweed extract, fermented nettles and chicken manure?

6. Will the goldfish like an total empty tank? I'm an animal lover and if I raise an animal for food I want them to be as healthy and happy as possible. The things you can buy from a pet store for aquariums seems more to be for the owner then for the fish.
Not sure if I will eat the goldfish but... :roll:

keith_r
07-12-2013, 05:52 AM
nice bins.. here's my take
1. ratio is good
2. black will get very warm if in direct sunlight, but clear will cause algae buildup,, i'd cover with a reflective material
3. it's a pretty small tank, i'd only go with a half dozen or so.. find a high quality fish food or your fish and plants will suffer..
goldfish can get pretty big, some pet stores will buy them back if/when they get too big for your system
4. yes, unless you use a sump,, then set up as chift pist - constant height in fish tank, pump in sump tank
5. if you don't have fish, you don't need a large fluidized bed filter if you're just feeding seaweed extract.. keep the chicken manure out of the ap system
6. i put a couple of clay pots in my smaller tanks for the fish, no gravel in the bottom of the system tank.. goldfish are eatable, they are just a member of the carp family

Nikenik
07-12-2013, 09:53 AM
nice bins.. here's my take
1. ratio is good
2. black will get very warm if in direct sunlight, but clear will cause algae buildup,, i'd cover with a reflective material
3. it's a pretty small tank, i'd only go with a half dozen or so.. find a high quality fish food or your fish and plants will suffer..
goldfish can get pretty big, some pet stores will buy them back if/when they get too big for your system
4. yes, unless you use a sump,, then set up as chift pist - constant height in fish tank, pump in sump tank
5. if you don't have fish, you don't need a large fluidized bed filter if you're just feeding seaweed extract.. keep the chicken manure out of the ap system
6. i put a couple of clay pots in my smaller tanks for the fish, no gravel in the bottom of the system tank.. goldfish are eatable, they are just a member of the carp family

Thank you for the answers!

1. Okay, will go with that ratio then.
2. Hmm, maybe I'll buy the transparent one and cover it with aluminium foil. I could leave a "window" transparent and just cover it up if there's to much algage.
3. 6 small godlfish, thanks. :)

4. What is the difference between adding a sump and just getting a bigger fish tank?
I'm planning to have the fish tank stand on the floor underneath my living room window and the two grow beds on top with the height of the bottom the window. Kind of like this setup:http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F3X/TOCJ/H742ZVTO/F3XTOCJH742ZVTO.MEDIUM.jpg
Can I have another bin of the same size next to the fish tank, have the pump in the "sump" and have like a overflow pipe between them?

5. Maybe I'll just start a different thread for this question since it actually is "organic hydroponics" and not a aquaponic question.
6. Thanks, will add a clay pot or two for the fish happiness, until I eat them. :P

Aloha Don
07-12-2013, 11:16 AM
Welcome to the forum.
I think the best thing that you should do first is read Olivers AP 101
continue to read/study and ask and thanks for the pics.

urbanfarmer
07-12-2013, 05:20 PM
Does it hold the weight of the water?

Don't make a soup of chicken manure in your house. I'd worry less about the smell and more about the pathogens. Raw chicken manure in your house is a bad idea. I can see the headlines now... chicken manure for your soul, APer dies to strange cocktail of avian-borne pathogens... :o

Nikenik
07-12-2013, 05:34 PM
Does it hold the weight of the water?

Don't make a soup of chicken manure in your house. I'd worry less about the smell and more about the pathogens. Raw chicken manure in your house is a bad idea. I can see the headlines now... chicken manure for your soul, APer dies to strange cocktail of avian-borne pathogens... :o

Haven't thought of that yet, will test one bin tomorrow in the hot tub.

I wouldn't worry to much about the chicken manure. It's in dried pellet form, sterilized by the manufacturer and sold as fertilizer. I use a few pellets with 3 dl of good "eco plant-soil" and a bit of seaweed extract for my compost tea. Have it indoors now in a 10l bucket with water and massive areation, a lot of grow media and a lid on. Doesn't smell and I haven't died yet. :P

I think I've seen someone on youtube who has a "chicken ponic's"-system with chickens walking over water on steel mesh and the water is pumped to grow beds. Wouldn't want that setup in my apartment though...

JCO
07-12-2013, 06:41 PM
Welcome to the forum and as already mentioned, I'd be careful about chicken manure in the house even if it has been cooked. It can be re-activated if exposed to water in sufficient quanities it in a short while as bacteria are airborne and bacteria is all it takes. :mrgreen:

Nikenik
07-12-2013, 07:09 PM
and bacteria is all it takes. :mrgreen:

I'm a bit surprised, I know a lot of people that use those chicken manure pellets, and where I'm from the only negative that's mentioned is the smell, never once heard of someone getting salmonella from watering their plants.

I've worked both in a water treatment plant and on a commercial indoor chicken farm. Still alive...

Maybe it's a bit of a cultural thing or it's just me. I know about harmful bacteria, wash my hands and I don't really worry.

Besides, you don't die from salmonella unless your old or sick. And harmfull E.coli don't really grow well in my compost tea because i always add a bit of extra lactic acid-bacteria. The room is well ventilated, not in contact with the kitchen, has a lot of plants in it including air cleaning plants like aloe vera and I always wash my hands after I've handled my tea.

JCO
07-12-2013, 11:53 PM
I hope your good fortune last and keep the photos coming :mrgreen:

Nikenik
07-13-2013, 04:18 AM
Back to topic then.

I've filled the 65liter "samla"-bin from ikea and checked it. It bulges a bit but i think if you just tie a rope around it it will be fine.

I've also read up on sump tanks and haven't find any reason to have one in such a small system rather then just increase the size of the fish tank but keep the same amount of fish as for a 65 liter bin.
Am I wrong in thinking like that?

I've found this "ikea-hack"-system and thinking of doing exactly like that to start with, but maybe not with that many goldfish.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Easy-and-Cheap-IKEA-Indoor-Aquaponics-System/step5/Finishing-up/
Any thoughts on that design?
That's a 50l FT with a 25l GB. Perhaps it's better to start small and expand that system with a larger fish tank and more grow beds when I've learned more. But heard in the "aquaponic secrets"-dvd that a small system isn't as stable

15mules
07-13-2013, 06:55 AM
I think it goes without saying a smaller system is less stable, due to the small quantity of water involved. It takes a whole lot more ammonia to cause a rise in 5000 gallons than it does, in say 50, having said that. I think the smaller system will make you learn AP faster, in that you will not have as much room for mistakes, so you will either learn to keep things balanced and monitor your system correctly, or you will have a dead system. With a bigger system a person can probably get by a lot longer making mistakes, before it really shows up or causes a problem.

Nikenik
07-13-2013, 07:41 AM
I think it goes without saying a smaller system is less stable, due to the small quantity of water involved. It takes a whole lot more ammonia to cause a rise in 5000 gallons than it does, in say 50, having said that. I think the smaller system will make you learn AP faster, in that you will not have as much room for mistakes, so you will either learn to keep things balanced and monitor your system correctly, or you will have a dead system. With a bigger system a person can probably get by a lot longer making mistakes, before it really shows up or causes a problem.

Seems like wisdom what you're saying. This setup is easy to aquire for me, just one trip to ikea and one trip to the hardware store for the plumbing and clay beads and it's up and running in a few hours. No need to rearrange your furniture, order stuff online, build a special stand for the growbeds etc.

And perhaps set my mind to that a smaller system is a bit harder to control and be prepared that I'll maybe have to start over again. Have found a place nearby that sells goldfish for about 2€ a piece, so no big economic crisis if I have to get more and start over. Would feel bad if I accidentally killed the fish though...

15mules
07-13-2013, 09:01 AM
Yes, But think how much worse you would feel to start with a 2000' system and kill a large amount of fish and plants ( now we are talking a large financial loss), as you are learning!!! Much better to learn and experiment on a smaller system.

Nikenik
07-13-2013, 09:49 AM
Exactly! Better to make, if any, mistakes in the beginning. Of course you'd want to live in the country, have a big ap-system and have a few fish and salads a week right away...
But if a system like that would fail I guess I could lose interest, and a lot of money... :P

Will start small and work my way up. If it goes well I could just by another setup just like it and run them side by side for some experimentation.

Would you change anything from the setup I linked?

I'm thinking about cover the outside of the growbed with aluminumfoil to keep out the sunlight from the roots but haven't found anything else in the design that could be made better.

15mules
07-13-2013, 11:54 AM
I will be honest, I am going in kind of a different direction, as I am looking to start small (as in a small commercial setup 250-300') and then expand to a larger system next spring in the neighborhood of 3000'. I plan on all DWR, not media beds, although I may do a few media beds for experimentation, with different crops, such as tomatoes and fruiting plants. having said that, I think the system you are building is a great indoor system for areas with limited space. The only area of concern I see, as others have mentioned is the possible algae growth, due to the white (somewhat translucent container) with no cover. Personally, I may would spray paint the FT brown or some color that looked ok in your house and make some sort of cover for it, to keep the light down. i think in an indoor system that size though, some type of algae eater fish may also be an option?
Keep in mind also, even though you are building a media bed system, it does not hurt (is will be beneficial) to research other AP systems just to get a well rounded perspective of what can be done with AP. I am sure, if you are like the rest of us, once your system is up and running, guest will have lots of questions and you will also be so amazed at the opportunities AP presents that you will find yourself talking about AP, to anyone who will listen.
By the way, Thanks for Listening!!!

Nikenik
07-13-2013, 12:55 PM
God idea about the lid for the fishtank. There is a lid that goes with the "antonius"-frame, think I'll buy that and maybe drill a few extra holes in it, or just have it sit askew on top of the fish tank.

I don't really care about what color looks good. Right now I kind of like alumunium foil (you call it "thin foil", right? Even though there isn't any thin in it...) Well, anyways. Alu-foil reflects light witch means I get a few lumens more out of my grow.lights in the winter time. Makes me think of the future as well... :geek:

Should the lid be white to let some light in, if the tank is lightproof on the sides, or is that to dark for the fish? The tank won't get that much sun it, just shade underneath my window.

About an algae eater that might be a good idea but I think I will start without them and just scrubbing the tank every now and then and let the algae get pumped up in the growbed and hopefully the worms, that I'll add, will eat the algae.
I think my local pet store charges 20-30€ for a small algae eating fish. And that's almost the price of the whole system!

15mules
07-13-2013, 01:38 PM
No Tin in Tin foil, you are absolutely correct, just another of those American slang terms meant to confuse the rest of the world!!! I just know in today's modern society, some folks are really concerned about DECOR !! haha.!! Fish actually require very little light at all, so i would not worry to much about keeping the tank fairly dark. Have you ever been fishing, The fish do not stay out in the open, they hide under rocks where it is dark. In a small shallow tank they will probably feel much more secure in a darker covered tank, than in a open tank where every time you walk by, they think the "Predator can see them, and they have no place to escape being eaten by it. 20-30, WOW, maybe growing and selling Algae eaters is a good market in your area then??

Nikenik
07-13-2013, 02:33 PM
No Tin in Tin foil, you are absolutely correct, just another of those American slang terms meant to confuse the rest of the world!!! I just know in today's modern society, some folks are really concerned about DECOR !! haha.!! Fish actually require very little light at all, so i would not worry to much about keeping the tank fairly dark. Have you ever been fishing, The fish do not stay out in the open, they hide under rocks where it is dark. In a small shallow tank they will probably feel much more secure in a darker covered tank, than in a open tank where every time you walk by, they think the "Predator can see them, and they have no place to escape being eaten by it. 20-30, WOW, maybe growing and selling Algae eaters is a good market in your area then??

Decor??? That's what the plants are there for! ;)

Okay, rather more dark then light then.

Yes, the prices for aquarium fish is quite high around here. Big business I guess with all the things you can buy for your tank, those that just want pretty and exotic fish to display and don't really care bout the cost.
Breeding and selling exotic fish could perhaps be a great source of income in the future. There's a lot of used aquarium's for sale in the classifieds. That should mean people get tired of them, throw the fish out and sell the aquariums to someone else who has to buy new fish. :idea:

But first things first.
Small moves, Ellie. Small moves. /Contact 1997

JCO
07-15-2013, 11:50 PM
That should mean people get tired of them, throw the fish out and sell the aquariums to someone else who has to buy new fish.

Usually what happens is misinformed/uninformed persons get enthusiastic about tropical fish because a friend/acquaintance has them and they are so pretty so they rush out and buy the entire show...tank, stand, hood, pumps, filters and anything else the salesman says they need and then they buy a bucket load of tropical fish and take it all home and try to set it all up complete with fish the same day.

Naturally the fish die and so they go back to the salesman and he starts selling them all kind of chemicals he says will prevent that from happening, OH and some more tropical fish.

They go home put in the chemicals (usually too much or not needed at all) and the fish and this time some of the fish miraculously survive for awhile. The tank gets dirty due partly to overfeeding and live plants that are no longer living littering the bottom of the tank and the misinformed/uninformed person gets tired of the continuous work at maintaining the tank and quites paying attention to it all together and then the rest of the fish die and now you have someone advertising a complete aquarium setup for sale.

The fish were not thrown out until they died right along with the misinformed/uninformed persons' interest. :mrgreen:

Nikenik
07-17-2013, 07:56 AM
JCO: It's a shame that business is built upon the death of so many innocent fish. Big business anyhow...

Nikenik
07-17-2013, 08:14 AM
I've bought most of the stuff I need for my system. Will start a new thread with pictures after I've cleaned the floor in my workshop/livingroom enough to take descent pictures of it.

I'm wondering: In such a small system like this wouldn't a loop siphon be better?

In this picture of the kit I'm building the bell siphon takes up quite a large size of the growbed.
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FYG/GODC/H7A8PA5Z/FYGGODCH7A8PA5Z.MEDIUM.jpg
Seems I could fit in one plant more with a loop siphon... Just be sure it doesn't clogg up.

There a so many threads about "bell vs. loop" and when you try read about "small systems" you'll just come across some American whose "small 5000 gallon aquaponicsystem" uses bell siphons... :roll:

15mules
07-17-2013, 10:01 AM
I will be the first to admit I know little about media bed systems, but to be honest I never really understood the whole siphon idea? Don't get me wrong, it takes an ingenious mind to design some of the various siphons I have seen. However, you already have a water pump to move the water up there, why not add a simple timer and make drain holes in the bottom of your media bed the correct size, so that in the time your pump runs, it floods the bed to the level you want, because the pump, pumps water faster than it can drain out. Then you have your whole bed open to do whatever you want?? and do away with a siphon altogether?? Just my thoughts on it anyway??

keith_r
07-17-2013, 12:04 PM
yes, a loop siphon would be better.. saves real estate on a small system, you only need half of an ag pipe for the guard..
my pumps run continuously, flood and drain..
power cycling of equipment does tend to shorten the life of it, but i've seen timer based pumps run for a long time so who knows..i'll keep my small pumps running 24x7
i know my pump is really low wattage and doesn't take much battery backup to keep running if there's a power outage..
my airpump is huge and is only 40watts..(pondmaster ap 40)
any way you drain the system, you need to have some kind of guard in the bed, you will get roots into the plumbing..

JCO
07-17-2013, 12:07 PM
Then slowly the holes get plugged (under the media) and they will and KaBOOM !...the whole thing blows up ..... basically.

I used a simple siphon (not simon) when I had media grow beds. 3 pieces of 2" PVC and 2 90 degree elbows. One piece was the stand pipe which fixes the water height, one short piece to connect the elbows together and the last piece elbowed down toward the bottom and just off the bottom to insure a good drain. Takes some experimenting to get it just right, but when you do....it can't be beat....breaks and drains perfect every time.. OH and as Keith_r said... the pump runs continous.:mrgreen: