Eddie's AP system with soil and hydroton as media

[eddiemigue]

Hello all. I have been reading this forum for quite a while, and wanted to share my system with you, but since this is my first post, I might as well say a bit about myself. I am in Rockland County, NY, just NW of NYC in USDA zone 7a. My passion has become growing quality, nutritious food for my family, and started this in 2010 with a few egg laying hens and a small garden in an urban lot. Since then, I have continually expanded my growing space, learned more and more about gardening, extended my growing season with hoop houses, and tried my hand at AP. Future plans include some fruit trees, more edible perennials, BSF and red worm composters, and rabbit and/or quail.

I started my first AP proof of concept system last year in a 35 Gal FT with goldish and a DWC tank to F&D bed. I am now on my second system (taking lessons learned) which is centered around a 150 Gal tilapia tank, with two GB's (currently) with continous sub-surface flow, one with hydroton, and the other with a soil mix over a few inches of hydroton. The system also has a radial flow solids filter (with matala filter in a weir-like setup), and a moving bed bio-filter/sump. Once I figure out how to post pic's, I'll share these and welcome any comments/advice.

[eddiemigue]

Here are some pic's.
[attachment=1:fkwd1h91]Aquaponics.GIF[/attachment:fkwd1h91]
System layout
[attachment=0:fkwd1h91]20130424_200007.jpg[/attachment:fkwd1h91]
Overall system

[keith_r]

nice!
any pics/details on your filters?

[eddiemigue]

Thanks Keith. Here you go...
[attachment=1:uiocr42g]20130405_231517.jpg[/attachment:uiocr42g]
Radial flow solids filter
[attachment=0:uiocr42g]20130405_231456.jpg[/attachment:uiocr42g]
Moving bed bio-filter/sump with K-1 kaldness media

[JCO]

Welcome to the forum. Everything looks great...keep the photos coming. :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

Thanks JCO, will do. We fanatics need an outlet to share with like-minded folks; most folks that I know think that what I am doing is pretty cool, but they don't want to hear me go on and on about the wonderful world of bacteria and their role in our food production.

Also, I expect to reach out to you in some time for an order of those nice scuds. The system has been running since early March with plants on a fishless cycle, and I introduced the tilapia fingerlings about a week ago. How long do you think before the system has enough organic materials to support a scud population? Note that I am removing solids.

[JCO]

I think about another month should be sufficient. How big are the Tilapia and how much and how often do you feed them? They are little pigs when it comes to food and can really dirty up a system quite fast. The will also usually mature at about 3 1/2 months of age and start breeding.

I took the Scuds off the order site because I have been out of town so much here recently and with me gone, there is no one to ship them. Let me know when you are ready and I will let you know an approx ship date. :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

They are about 1.5" and I feed them twice a day as much add they'll eat in a few minutes. I'll reach out to you in another month or so and we'll see what works for you.

[JCO]

I await your word :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

So it looks like I'm going to have to reduce my feed rate and add a bunch more plants soon. Nitrates have been consistently in the 100-120 range and today my nitrites just ticked up to 1.0 from 0.25 over the last few weeks. I plan to add some NFT tubes and a DWC tank. Anyone know if strawberries do well in NFT?

[foodchain]

Where did you find those grow beds? I love them.

[eddiemigue]

They are 100 Gal hydroponic reservoirs, measuring 36"x60"x14" from my local hydroponics guy. I can get you the brand if you like, because they are very rigid and sturdy, unlike some of the other hydroponic supplies that I have checked out.

My original plan was to go with a few rubbermaid 50 gal stock tanks, but Tractor Supply only had one when I was setting up the system, and I did not have time to wait for an order (was on a break from work and on limited setup/construction time). Fortunately, these where available at the hydroponics store and they have worked out nicely thus far.

[eddiemigue]

Here are some close-up pictures of the GB's from a month ago:
[attachment=1:98pphw30]20130405_231436.jpg[/attachment:98pphw30]
[attachment=0:98pphw30]20130405_231443.jpg[/attachment:98pphw30]

[keith_r]

strawb's will do fine in nft or towers.. but they don't handle salt to well.. and with your nitrites going up, i'd be inclined to salt to 3ppt..

[foodchain]

In your growbeds, that doesn't appear to be a bell siphon. What is that?
Any information you can provide on those grow beds would be greatly appreciated. Preformed, as long as cost effective beats building with wood and lining any day.

[foodchain]

Also, what is K-1 kaldness media? I am not familiar with this. Do you like it? In your experience what are the pros and cons? Filters are a hot botton for me right now...as I am currently tackling this issue.

[foodchain]

Could your nitrates be going up, because you have covered (mulched) with pine shavings? As these break down, won't this increase the nitrates? I am thinking outloud here, I don't know for sure. But my experience has been anything organic breaking down produces nitrates/amonia in the cycle.

[eddiemigue]

The GB's were quite pricey ($200 each) - I wouldn't call them cost effective by any means, but I wanted something functional and neat.

The pipes that you see are 4"PVC with a drain cover sitting on a toilet flange as a base. Their purpose is to allow access to the inlets and outlets for the subsurface flow. I can post a link to a site with very detailed instructions on the design, but not sure if that would violate forum policies.

The K-1 is a plastic filter media with a lot of surface area (wagon wheel structure) that becomes neutrally buoyant. It works well in moving bed filters because as bacteria build on it, it churns readily with an air stone in the filter. This serves to knock off dead bacteria and is partially self-cleaning. The inside bacteria is protected so you get both older bacteria on the inside and newer bacteria colonizing the exterior. A quick Google search will show you a closeup of the media. I'm very happy with the media thus far (mind you that I've only been using it about two months). Another advantage is that you can see the bacteria accumulate on it because it goes from white to brown with time. The only con that I have identified is that it is pricey ($90 for 1cuft).

As far as the nitrites, I think it's due to the liquid seaweed that I recently added. The pine shavings are a top dressing of mulch over the soil mix to retain moisture and all this is well separated from the water flow. It's only been on for a short while so I don't think it has had much time to break down, let alone make it into the water column.

The system is salted to 1ppt, which I believe should be ok for strawberries, right?

[foodchain]

I have had a lot of success with strawberries. As long as I kept salt a long ways away......I added salt once....never never again.
Salt and strawberries are mortal enemies.

[eddiemigue]

I only added salt once just before adding fish, and since then I have changed out a portion of the water (watering soil gardens and topping off tank). Since I started off just below 1ppt, and this has dropped since, do you think that I should give it a go or wait some more time? Don't have much experience with strawberries.

[foodchain]

Me personaly, others may have a different opinion. BUT I would would change out more of your water.

[eddiemigue]

K. Thanks.

[eddiemigue]

Foodchain, let me know if I answered all your questions or if you want more details, which I'll be more than happy to provide.

[eddiemigue]

Hello all,

Here's a quick update with system progress/expansion. Tilapia have been growing nicely and are getting close to 4" and continue to look very healthy. Plants have grown well, with a good amount of flowers, but no fruit yet. There are some that show light deficiencies, and I am tweaking layout/lighting accordingly.

Also, just added a DWC/duckweed tank, which is before the FT in the water column. The inlet T's into the duckweed area, which is separated from the growing area by matala filter, and I have lettuce, chard, dandelion and cress growing there. This should improve water quality even further, give me greater redundancies, and lower my nitrates, besides providing more food for us and the fish. Also have an air stone next to the matala, on the DWC side.

[JCO]

Looking very good...keep the photos coming :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

Thanks JCO. Just noticed that I don't have any recent pictures of the whole system (may have been lost in the purge) so here it goes. Also, any chance that you're ready to send me some scuds?

[JCO]

Yes I can send the Scuds, but give me until next Thursday before you make your purchase. I will be back in town then. :mrgreen:

[davidstcldfl]

Looking nice... 8-)

[eddiemigue]

Good stuff JCO - I'll order then.

Thanks David. Looking at your avatar reminds me of the growth in the fish, which are now about 4" and starting to really look edible. :D

[eddiemigue]

Hello all. How long does it take for a system to be mature enough to support fruiting plants? I have a bed with soil, which should support plants right off the bat, and a hydroton one, but neither is producing fruit. Some of the plants are doing well, while others are meek, but while I get tons of flowers, no fruit. I have been using a small brush to hand pollinate the eggplant, pepper and cucumber, but nothing yet.

I can't imagine that the soil side would have any nutrient deficiencies since the soil could support the plants without the AP water. Could insufficient light, or excess nitrogen be the issue?

[eddiemigue]

JCO. Got hammered at work recently with the recent weather and haven't been able to get my order of scuds in. Still a good time?

[JCO]

When ever you are ready...waiting on you. :mrgreen:

[dead_sled]

23 scud -do!

[JCO]

and zippity-do-da to you to :lol: :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

Order is in JCO. I plan to place them in my solids filter, MBBR, and duckweed tank. There is plenty of organic matter in all these for them to consume, but nowhere for them to necessarily hide (unless they hide in the K1 and matala filter material). Should I add some hydroton to the bottom of the duckweed tank for them?

[JCO]

If there are no fish in the duckweed tank, they should be able to hide quite well in there and the filter and you'd be surprised where else you will find them :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

It's been a while since an update, so I figured that was due. Have my JCO scuds hopefully doing their thing and multiplying in the system. I haven't seen them since I put them in - probably happily hiding in the copious organic material in the duckweed tank. I figure that once they multiply enough, I should start seeing them again.

As far as the overall system, I concluded that my indoor lighting was very insufficient and the system was too immature for what I was trying to grow. Thus, I am in the process of some changes, namely, converting the hydroton bed to a DWC tank mainly for salad greens, and leaving the earthan bed fallow for some time, which will later serve as a wicking bed where I transfer a few fruiting plants over the winter.

Growing indoors has been a bit of a humbling experience. Whole new learning curve compared to growing outdoors. My latest challenge is what appears to be a fungal disease on my greens. I have some HAF fans in the room, and there is decent air circulation, but perhaps not enough. Humidity is usually in the 70% range. I may direct the fans over the plant canopy to see if this makes a difference, but not really sure how to proceed.

[15mules]

How is that fan working. Did that seem to fix the fungus problem??? Seen any of them scuds yet???


Oops, I did not notice the date and time on your last post!! I guess the few minutes the fan has run has probably not made a difference yet. Sorry!!


But seriously, have you seen any of them scuds yet??? :lol:

[JCO]

These are not the ones that fly through the air and go "BOOM"...you knew that ... RIGHT :?: :lol: :mrgreen:

[15mules]

JCO
They don't go BOOM!!! Ok, I will admit, I am a little disappointed, but none the less interested. Would be nice to see that they done well for him and he has a tank full of tiny crustations in short order.
Eddie, I wish you the best of luck and look forward to an update, I have really enjoyed this thread.

[JCO]

You're absolutely right, I forgot....it's KaBOOM..! :lol: :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

Thanks 15mules, glad you have enjoyed the posts. I figured that sharing a blow by blow is my way of sharing and giving back, since I have gotten so much from the fine folks on this forum. Hopefully others can gain something from my experience and avoid some of the same mistakes.

As for an update, I was cleaning my system this week since the system had developed some flow issues (bioslime buildup in the lines) and the water quality was not so good. I transferred the fish to a glass aquarium during the process and was finally able to count the fish since I transferred them 1-2 at a time. I had ordered 30 tilapia and while I knew that I had received more, I was shocked that I had 69! No wonder the system that was sized for 30 is having trouble keeping up.

So, since I am in the process of changing my system, this development narrows my focus. I will get a larger tank (or setup several) in an indoor RAS setup and plumb the lines to outdoor GB's in an open loop arrangement. This will eliminate all my indoor growing issues, and allow for much more fish (including future generations as they breed). Now I just need to figure out where to get a reasonably priced tank. I currently have a rubbermaid stock tank, and while it works fine, it is black and makes it hard to see the fish. I would like get a light colored tank, but have not seen anything that is not beaucoup bucks.

[JCO]

Get another Rubbermaid stock tank and paint the inside with swimming pool paint; white, light blue or pink to please the wife. Allow it to cure properly then put water in it and throw in some of your used filter material, the dirtier the better, let it set in the sun for a 3 - 5 days, then it should be ready for service. :mrgreen:

[15mules]

JCO, that is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for for my system, something that likes to live in dirty water. The dirty the better as you say, they like? I think me and these things will get along fine. i wonder if they would live in my pond with my catfish?? That water is dirty?

[eddiemigue]

Thanks JCO for the great advice. I was actually thinking of something similar last night as I lay in bed unable to fall asleep (I often get creative at bedtime and have bouts of inspiration, design new projects, run calculations, etc. when I should be sleeping). I remembered reading somewhere about folks who paint the inside of concrete tanks and thought something like that should work on the rubbermaid tanks, just have to figure out what kind of paint is safe. Lo and behold, you have answered without my asking. I'll get some swimming pool paint, pickup the tank and I'll be set.

Update on the scuds, as I was emptying out one of my GB's and when only a mm or so of water remained, I noticed a bunch of scuds scurrying around. Looks like they are flourishing and I probably have a bunch throughout the system. Hot dang!

[JCO]

Be very careful when you are working around them, they are easily crushed :mrgreen:

[15mules]

Glad to finally find out that they are growing well for you.

[eddiemigue]

They seem to be doing well mules, just so tiny that they are hard to see. When I setup the new FT, I'm going to have to empty the duckweed/scud tank. Now how do I coral a bunch of tiny critters that dart around??? Guess I'll just have to drain all contents to a holding tank pending transfer.

JCO is a scud whisperer since he can get them to line up and enter a bag for shipping. :D

[15mules]

Put some minnows in the tank and let them catch the scuds for you. :lol:

[JCO]

What kind of container is the scud tank now. If it can be lifted, position it over the new tank and rinse them out along with their eggs. :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

I had some scuds in the DWC tank that is now drained. I probably lost some scuds/eggs in the process but I know that I got a bunch. Drained the last bit of water into the duckweed tank and I could see them scurrying about before and after. Most of the bag contents went into the duckweed tank so I should have a decent population.

Got my 300 gal tank today and had the kids paint it with some white pool paint. After it dries and then cures with some "dirty" water, the fish will get their new spacious digs. I'll post pictures.

[eddiemigue]

Another question for y'all - I'm adding another filter to my system when I setup the larger FT and was looking for some feedback. I currently have a radial solids filter and a moving bed bio filter, and am thinking of adding a trickling filter filled with hydroton in between the two current filters.

The tilapia produce copious amounts of waste and I'd like to keep the water clearer. I have a bunch of hydroton and I figure that it'll help trap small solids that make it through the radial, add bio filtration and help aerate the water.

[JCO]

We await your unveiling of the master piece. :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

should work well.. good luck!

[eddiemigue]

Here are some pics. Came out pretty decent - only concern is that the paint may peel. Hope that not scoring the tank doesn't bite me in the rear.

[Aloha Don]

Love the happy workers you "hired" there....

[eddiemigue]

Thanks Don. I like to involve the kids as much add possible. Lends for some nice quality time, opportunities for lessons, builds character and makes helping out a habit. Everyone wins!

[Aloha Don]

I have to say....all else aside (different systems, stocking levels, water readings, styles, etc) THAT is what makes AP worth while...
Good Job eddiemigue!!!

[JCO]

So, did they get as much paint on themselves as they did the tank or were they pros? :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

They were pretty pro, with only the occasional bit of paint on their arms/legs.

[JCO]

I have to say one thing, the inside of the tank sure is white :!: :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

... like the driven snow. ;)

[eddiemigue]

Just got back from a camping trip and found my first dead fish. The eyes were gone and a hole had been ripped in its side. All others look fine, and wondering if this could have been a battle to the death as the fish are just about sexually mature.

[JCO]

From the description sounds like he died and the others wanted something to remember him by so that had a party and he was the main course. Mature or not, they very seldom ever fight to the death. :mrgreen:

[eddiemigue]

"Something to remember him by" - nice. :)

No mortalities today so hopefully this was an isolated incident. The paint in the new tank is cured and it is now full of water and sitting in the sun. Expect to empty it, set it up and refill it Monday.

[eddiemigue]

Setup my new 300 Gal tank, extra filtration and transferred the fish today. I'll post pics when I have the GB's setup in the next few days - may have to start a new thread since the title no longer applies...

[eddiemigue]

Setup my GB's and lights this weekend, one bed as DWC and the other filled with hydroton. Have to take care of a leak - broken bulkhead fitting - and will post pictures soon. Now if those seedlings that I started will just hurry up and grow, I can add some plants to start soaking up those nutrients.

[Aloha Don]

Can almost taste those veggies now....
Oh wait...Need more patience...
That is MY one downfall....need to wait and keep my fingers off.....
Looking forward to more updates..

[JCO]

Just like the little girl told the little boy about her birthday cake, "KEEP YOU FINGER OUT OF IT, IT DON'T BELONG TO YOU" in this case it's an AP system and it belongs to Mother Nature. :mrgreen:

[winger4647]

I think about another month should be sufficient. How big are the Tilapia and how much and how often do you feed them? They are little pigs when it comes to food and can really dirty up a system quite fast. The will also usually mature at about 3 1/2 months of age and start breeding.

I took the Scuds off the order site because I have been out of town so much here recently and with me gone, there is no one to ship them. Let me know when you are ready and I will let you know an approx ship date. :mrgreen:


I thought SCUDS were missiles??? :mrgreen: :lol:

[JCO]

Go here to learn about Aquaponic Scud MISSILES The Lowly Scud (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?1688-THE-LOWLY-SCUD) :mrgreen:

[winger4647]

So it looks like I'm going to have to reduce my feed rate and add a bunch more plants soon. Nitrates have been consistently in the 100-120 range and today my nitrites just ticked up to 1.0 from 0.25 over the last few weeks. I plan to add some NFT tubes and a DWC tank. Anyone know if strawberries do well in NFT?


NFT & DWC ??

[Roger L.]

Winger, I would suggest 2 sources of information for you to read. The first is JCO's DIY Aquaponics that you can find on the home page. The other is a series of post by Oliver called Aquaponics 101. These two sources are my go to reference for everything I have questions about. Then if I have further clarification needed, which is often, away I go to posting.

DWC=Deep water culture
NFT=Nutrient flow technology

[eddiemigue]

Hello all,

Been a while since an update, so here goes...

Fish have been growing nicely, and are in the 6"-9" range (starting to wonder how big is big enough for dinner). The only losses have been to suicide by jumping out of the tank through either small openings in the FT cover, or pushing up the netting in a violent jump. Since, I secured the cover more tightly and have clamped it down.

The DWC setup is working out well now that temp's have come down. It had been too hot and humid to grow indoors, and my plants had been getting fungal diseases. The media bed is ok, with chard and tomatoes, but will have to wait to see if production is worth the lighting costs. I'm continuing to lean toward an open-loop system in the spring-fall, with indoor greens DWC production late fall to early spring.

Anyway, here are some pic's of the fish and the DWC tank...