Hello from Tampa, Florida!

[FloridaChris]

Hey guys,
Just wanted to say that I am making the jump into aquaponic gardening! Failed a few times at the traditional dirt gardening which was due to many variables; poor green thumb, Florida heat, etc. I am hoping to have better luck with AP as this seems to be a self sustaining, low maintenance approach to gardening. As with any new adventure I have some concerns with the unkown.

Florida heat - I am mostly concerned with our humid, hot Florida weather and how it affects plants. I have done some research and have found a solution, building a stand around my system and securing trellis siding to it. I found a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4QJAGXutow) of the design I am following.

Florida rain - With the rain we constantly receive, over 8+ inches a month (which I feel is low), I am concerned on how this will affect my AP system. Will it be messing with the pH balance, watering down the nitrification process, or flooding my grow beds? If this will be a problem, what are the solutions?

Pest control - In my neighborhood we have a few large oak trees that are still around, the rest get cut down daily by angry senior citizens with nothing better to do but complain on leaves on their yards... These trees house huge families of squirrels, which I feel will be a nuisance to my fruits and veggies. How do I deter these critters from eating my food?? Someone mentioned garlic/chili power and I also heard lime salt (?), can anyone care to further explain these?

Thanks in advance for any help I receive and I look forward to my journey of AP gardening!

Regards,
Chris

[davidstcldfl]

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum.... :)
There are a few other guys here from S FL. Hopefully they'll share what they can grow in our heat.
I'm in central FL near Orlando. It's still hot here too, maybe a few degrees less.. :roll:
This will help some...Here's a planting guide from UFL ...
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vh021

The shade, like in the video will help 'some'. It's our night time tempts and humidity that can play havoc.

Rain...yes, we can get a lot every afternoon....try to keep some of it out of your system. I've placed green house plastic over top of my shade cloth.

Squirrels....I didn't know they ate tomatoes.... :shock: They love cherry tomatoes. I used some bird netting, stretched over the frame. They could chew their way through, but they don't seem to do so.

[FloridaChris]

Dave,
Thanks for the insight! Looks like I'll be making the planting season for some crops by the skin of my teeth!

Do you still grow outside the UF recommended planting seasons?

As for the night temps and humidity? Can you provide some information or insight into how this would affect the plants?

[davidstcldfl]

Do you still grow outside the UF recommended planting seasons?
I use it as a 'guide.'
Example... I wouldn't think of trying to grow lettuce, here in the summer. It's listed as a 'winter' crop. However, with the weather changes going on, I've seen the lettuce try to bolt, even though it's 'winter' here. Same with things like bok choi/pac choi.
I tried to raise spinach last winter, it would start, then die from the heat. I didn't even try this winter.


As for the night temps and humidity? Can you provide some information or insight into how this would affect the plants?
I was mainly thinking of tomatoes.
I can (sometimes) keep them alive during the hottest part of the summer. Once the night time temps and humidity get high...the blooms won't set. They just fall off.
As a rule of thumb....The smaller tomatoes do a little better in the heat then the larger ones. Problem with most cherries and plum tom's are they become a pretty big plant. You have to plan ahead for all the room they'll take up.
The only tomato that may/will keep producing is the 'wild fl everglade cherry tomato'. They go by similar names. The tomatoes are tiny, but taste pretty good. Just remember, they can become a 'huge' plant.

Check out 'tomato growers supply company'. I think they are in FT Myers. They mainly sale tomatoes, also peppers and eggplants. They have hundreds of tomatoes. If you read through, you'll see some are better for growing in FL.

These I want to try... florida 91, homestead 24, kewalo, peron, soux, and solar fire.

I found it's important to have more room between the maters in the summer, then the winter ones. 'Must' have air flow.
Every disease and bug that effects tomatoes is here in FL. ON a gardening forum I go to...(tomatoville) someone said....tomatoes are a plant that is just looking for a reason to die.... :(

In the summer...okra, sweet potatoes and malabar spinach are a sure bet. Some peppers like the heat too. You need to research where they are originally from.

Well, I may be entering the TMI zone.... :geek: ...so that's all for now.

[FloridaChris]

I'll definitely have to research some more on the tomato plants! That is one of the main reasons I wanted to start this system! Maybe I can keep a small planter going inside my house during the hot summer months for larger tomatoes. The girlfriend already gave me the 3rd bedroom for my "beer factory". I wouldn't mind a nice looking tomato plant in here :-P

I saw a few cherry tomato plants at HD today, do you think those would survive a transplant?

So summer months do you only grow the okra, sweet potatoes, and spinach? Trying to figure out what plants I can start planting now.

Off topic from plants and over to the build, when I was in HD just now I was pricing out the lumber I am going to use for my build. Is if safe to use treated lumber? Everything there is "weathershield" wood. The wood will just be a stand to support the halved barrels, but I may be running 2x4's up the sides to nail trellis to for shading. How high should I build the cover for this?

[davidstcldfl]

Trying to grow indoors, especially something that blooms... brings up other issues with lighting.... :(
I don't think the cost is worth it. Our tomatoes aren't worth thousands of dollars like some folk's plants may be... :lol: . We only have a month or two, where you won't have tomatoes growing.

Yes, tomatoes are very easy to transplant into aquaponics. I normally fill up a bucket with water...and gently raise and lower the plant's roots in and out of the water. Just trying to get most of the stuff off.

If your buying bonnies at HD...you might consider a 'patio tomato' or two. The plant doesn't get too big, and they taste decent. They are a medium size fruit.

fyi....just because the big box store has starter plants in stock, doesn't mean it's the 'correct' time to plant them.
Also...flowering plants like peppers and tomatoes don't do as well in a new system, as compared to a mature system... :( You can stick them in, most of has done it... :roll: .. with our brand new systems and they kind of sit there for awhile.
Check out your local hydroponics shop, and look for some 'maxicrop with iron'. It's made from seaweed and has some trace minerals. It gives a new system a kick start.


So summer months do you only grow the okra, sweet potatoes, and spinach? Trying to figure out what plants I can start planting now.
I just mentioned them because , they are a pretty sure thing, to grow in the heat.
Make sure to note....that is 'MALABAR' spinach, not the stuff that popeye ate... :P It's a vine and is from a tropical area....and it 'loves' the heat.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-6044-red-m ... inach.aspx (http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-6044-red-malabar-spinach.aspx)

http://parkseed.com/product.aspx?p=05660-PK-P1

Check out the link I shared earlier....look for the chart on plants for 'warm season'. The charts have FL broken into 3 areas with different growing times. Make sure your looking at 'south fl" planting times.

Hope this helps some.... ;)

[bsfman]

Trying to figure out what plants I can start planting now.



I've found this quide very helpful. If you scroll about half way down to table #3, it gives some very useful info!
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vh021

Welcome to the forum by the way! (I'm about 120 miles south of you in Cape Coral.)

[FloridaChris]

Check out your local hydroponics shop, and look for some 'maxicrop with iron'. It's made from seaweed and has some trace minerals. It gives a new system a kick start.


Dave, do I just pour the whole thing into my GB's and let it cycle through a few times? Do I wait to add the fish? I have a hydroponics shop about 3 miles down the road, been meaning to stop in and this will be my reason.

[davidstcldfl]

Hey Chris,
I've seen folks recomend 'as much as' a quart to 250 gallons. I don't know if I used that much when I 1st started...? I did the guy thing...I shook the bottle and poured some in and said ......that looks good... :)
Don't freak when you add some...the stuff is really dark and it will stain your water. (and it'll stain your clothes too) Your water will eventually be stained anyways.

You can always add more to the water over time..or...I also spray my plants with a weak mixture of maxi crop and molasses.

You can put the plants and maxi in the system, before the fish...or at the same time.

[FloridaChris]

Dave, just to be clear this just adds minerals in the water to help the plants. It does not help speed up the nitrification process, correct? So it'll be a small shot of energy for the long haul ahead of me correct? I have read that the nitrifying bacteria takes about a month to build up and you should wait until then to plant anything. Just debating on whether I should spend my time and money on planting any seedlings I buy from HD or a grower now or to wait...

[bsfman]

Dave, just to be clear this just adds minerals in the water to help the plants. It does not help speed up the nitrification process, correct? So it'll be a small shot of energy for the long haul ahead of me correct? I have read that the nitrifying bacteria takes about a month to build up and you should wait until then to plant anything. Just debating on whether I should spend my time and money on planting any seedlings I buy from HD or a grower now or to wait...

Correct. It won't help nitrification but it will add nutrients. Best to get the type with chelated iron as iron may be difficult for plants to uptake with our high ph Florida water.

So long as you have an ammonia source, there's no need to delay in adding plants. Plants will uptake nitrogenous waste whether it's in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate form.

[FloridaChris]

Hey guys, definitely going to be adding plants this weekend. I was able to get my build done in less than 5 hours. That includes the two trips to Home Depot and the entire build process. I have posted a few pictures of my day below.

Anyone happen to be in the Tampa area that knows any gardens that have fruit/vegetable seedlings for sale? I want the HD plants to be last resort. As for fish, figured I will pick up 8 goldfish and 2 small catfish. I'll make sure to pick up the maxi grow with iron to get that all in the system. In the mail today came my freshwater aquarium test kit. Planned on taking a reading after a weeks worth of cycling, unless I should sooner or later.

A problem I did have was a leaky bung fitting. Any tips? I have a tube of bathroom silicone, but don't know if it is safe to use in a AP setup like this.

The pump I am running is 800GPH, which I know is overkill, but plan to use it as I expand. I was only able to get two cycles in before the sun called a close to my day, but my cycle time is 1 min from trickle to full blast siphon drain and 4 more minutes after that surge for the siphon to break. Is that quick enough? Should I speed it up? Haven't times how long it takes to fill, if I were to guess I'd say 7-8mins.

Pictures:
Start of the day
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps30d8ed5a.jpg

End of day
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpsb9100ef7.jpg

Behind the scenes

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps89312e4d.jpg
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpscbb095fa.jpg

Put a little to much water in... Wops!
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpsa8fb2e85.jpg

Leaky bung cap... Any solutions?
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpsb0a89724.jpg


All in all. It was a great project, I had a ton of fun doing it, and I recommend it to anyone! It was easy as pie, now for the hard part... actually getting something to grow!! Can't wait for the next step in this AP adventure!

[davidstcldfl]

Looking nice... :)
Did we tell you this was addictive...?... :P


A problem I did have was a leaky bung fitting. Any tips? I have a tube of bathroom silicone, but don't know if it is safe to use in a AP setup like this.
Most of the bathroom silicone has an anti-microbial in it. I don't know if that little bit would matter...? The silicone isn't going to stick to the plastic anyway.
Plumber's putty should work....it's used in potable water, so you'd think it would be safe.
The best thing...a boat caulking made by 3M. I've seen it in small tubes, like a toothpaste tube. The one draw back is, the 'fast cure', takes 24 hrs.

[bsfman]

Great looking build!

The GE type 1 silicone is safe to use. The GE type 2 has anti-microbial agents in it.

[FloridaChris]

Hey guys, not sure what type of silicone it is (type 1 vs 2) so I am just going to return it and try to find some plumbers puddy. Going to try teflon tape on the bungs first, maybe that should help.

Questions:

Now that I am getting my fish, what to feed them? I want it to be an organic feed, to not defeat the whole purpose of doing this. Eventually, I'd like to grow my own duckweed, but that is further down the road. What do you all use?

Also, I read that when you put your fish in the system that you don't want to feed them for the first few days. Is this the case?

Has anyone ever tried growing peanuts in AP? If so, any pointers?

Also, how do you keep your electrical connections outside moisture proof? Was thinking of just wrapping with seran wrap!

[davidstcldfl]

Chris, teflon tape acts as a lubricant for the threads. I'd skip it and just use the plumbers putty.

The fish are 'usually' stressed for the first few days. Even if you feed them, they normally don't eat.
It seems to take them several weeks to get 'really comfortable' in their new environment.
Another interesting thing... they have to get use to, seeing 'you' peering into their tank. They'll actually recognize you after awhile.

[FloridaChris]

I actualy got out there this morning and gave a little extra elbow grease I was lacking from building all yesterday afternoon! The threads tightened down enough that I didn't have to use anything. I still have a leaky PVC fitting, where the water drains out of the siphon, but I am just going to rig a trap that funnels the water back into the FT.

As for fish feed, I am looking to do duckweed. Doesn't seem to complicated. Has anyone harvest from the wild or grown their own? If not, what do you do for fish food?

David - I like your Reagan quote by the way, first time I noticed it.

[davidstcldfl]

I use purina's 'aquamax' products. No, it'd not organic.

I raised duck weed before. I harvested some form a local pond. I brought it home and put it in a small tub and added lots of clorox. I was hoping the clorox would kill any nasties. I did end up with snails in my system about a month or so later. I'm not sure if they came from the duckweed.

I set up a kiddies pool to raise it in. I had a very slow flow of system water coming into the pool. I had to add shade to it when it got warm out. The duckweed doesn't like water flow or sunlight.
The stuff does grow really fast. And dies off fast too. The bottom of the pool always had parts of dead duckweed in it.

My tilapia loved the stuff. They also loved sweet potato leaves and most other greens that I raised.

You'd have to raise a ton of the stuff, to feed only it to your fish. That would take up a lot of room. Also have to consider....the duckweed can clean up the water so well, that if you raise enough, you may not have enough nutes for the plants you want to eat.

[FloridaChris]

Hmmm, maybe I can subsidize with duckweed and not feed full time with it. I'll look into my options, I've got some time.

Quick update - I got fish today and introduced them into my system, as well as an aquarium jump start kit. Also, I introduced the grow medium to the system. I think I did everything in a rush and may potentially took me a step back.

So I put the jump start kit in first, then the fish, then the gravel.... Did that ass backwards.

My fish were loving their new massive tanks swimming around freely, until I put the grow medium in. I hosed down each bag for about 2 mins straight, until it ran clear, but when I poured it into the GB it immediately clouded up. After I fully filled the first GB, two fish were floating at the top. Filled the second bed, after a trip to HD to get more gravel, and two more popped up dead. Well now I have really milky water and down to 6 fish within 4 hours of having them. I expected them to die off, but not this quick and to my airhead error.

Anyways, will this water clear up or should I dump the tank and start over?

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps067abfb6.jpg

Here is the thing done, just waiting on plants to go in.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps623b80a3.jpg

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps63a5c668.jpg

And to have a kicker at the end of the day, there is now a nice Florida thunderstorm monsooning outside! So much for my bacteria I introduced to the system... it is all getting flushed out by this downpour. Next step.... build a solid cover.

[bsfman]

Anyways, will this water clear up or should I dump the tank and start over?



The water will clear up within a day. No need to dump and start over.

[FloridaChris]

Hey guys, just wanted to give you a little update. I planted these plants back on Saturday and they're still looking good, as of this morning. We have a little cold and wind going on, but don't think it's going to do to much damage. The tomato plant and the bell pepper plant were banging into each other from the wind and have a little leaf damage, but they should hold up.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpsab7f8146.jpg

[davidstcldfl]

"Houston, we have plants ".... :)

[hawkiye]

Nice Job looking good... That what i should of done for starters... ;)

[FloridaChris]

Hey guys,
Another update. Having some pepper problems, everything else is alive but stagnant growth. Going to add some Easter egg shells tomorrow. I am also going to pull the seeds placed in rock wool as there is nothing happening with them.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps153c00d3.jpg

Took my first first water test too. The pictures are below. Everything looks normal for a 1 week old system. Please let me know if you find anything odd. I thought it was odd ammonia was low, but I only have 9 tiny feeder goldfish in the FT; left over from the original 20.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpsf971478a.jpg

I am going to top up Monday. Tomorrow I am going to fill up two five gallon buckets so they can evaporate off all of the chlorine and chloramine in a day or so.

[FloridaChris]

Question, how many small feeder goldfish should I have in my system? Per some general rules I have read, one 1" fish per 1 gallon of water. I couldn't imagine this system needing 40 goldfish.

[badflash]

You need enough fish to provide the nutrients for the plants. Your test show nada, zip. I would go with fish worth something and a lot more. Goldies are cheap, but they stay cheap. In the same family are Koi and they can be valuable.

[FloridaChris]

badflash - I am thinking of doing tilapia, as they can handle more of my produce scraps then the goldies. Does the 1" per 1 gallno still hold true? How many tilapia can I fit in my system? The FT is a 55 barrel on it's side, I figure it's about 40 gallons.

[keith_r]

1" per gallon is an aquarium thing..
in aquaponics (or aquaculture for that matter), the fishload is based on the amount of filtration.. you'll hear several "rules of thumb"..
in a new system (first year) i'd go a maximum of 20lbs of fish for every 100 gallons of growbed..that's grown out size, so 20 fish that you would harvest at about 1lb... in a mature system i'd go 25-30lbs for every 100 gallons gb
if you add filtration you can stock higher.. but you always base your bioload on filtration

[FloridaChris]

So seeing my system is approx 50 gallons (a 55gallon drum halved), I should have about 10 tilapia, correct? So probably 15 fingerlings, anticipating some will die off.

[badflash]

Fish grow, so fish per gallon is a poor measure. 1 pound of fish per gallon of watter is a better fit, but there are also issues with space. In a 55 gallon tank you could have hundreds of fingerlings, but less than 25 2 pound adults. The fish need to be able to move and access food easily to avoid agression. Your system needs to be able to remove particulates efficiently. Be wary of table scraps. This can foul the water quickly depending on how it is handled.

The key to plant growth in nutrients. Start the fish first and let the nutrients get up to a good level before adding the plants. When harvesting, do so in small amounts and replant to not upset the balance.

[FloridaChris]

badflash - I seemed to have done everything in reverse on this. I put the fish in the system with no plants, then added my grow medium killing all of my fish. Well let that cycle for a little to let the dust settle then added more fish. I have about 5-6 goldies left, but they obviously aren't providing enough nutrients to the system. Unfortunately, I already have plants in the beds and I am keeping them alive with daily dosages of MaxiCrop w/ Iron, unless those goldies are producing too. So I want to step up to tilapia and hope to pick some fingerlings up this weekend. Do you suggest then 50 fingerlings for the time being and pull them out as they grow and take up to much space? 25 2 pound fish in a 55 barrel drum seems excessive, but then again I am new to this.

[badflash]

To begin with, limit 1 pound of fish to 5 gallons of water. Once you gain experience and have a mature system and skills, you can push it up. There is a lot to learn, so take your time.

There are ways to calculate how much your fish should put out, but that is just a starting point. You need to constantly watch and adjust.

[FloridaChris]

Hey guys, so I am having problems with keeping my pH up. I think the river rock or something in the system is acidic... I am pulling the fish out and doing a water change with tap water that has been dechlorinated with vitamin C and has been left out for 24 hours. I hope this water change helps with the pH, but have a feeling it will fall again. Can anyone give me an idea on how much shellrock or oyster shells I will need to make a perm. buffer in the system? I ordered the parts to make a sump tank connected to the FT to allow more water in the system and what would house the oyster shells.

[FloridaChris]

So... I think I have just dug my hole even deeper. Let me begin with the start of the process.

Sunday afternoon I carved out a sump tank to be used as a water holding tank for the transfer and to be included in the expansion. I filled it to 50 gallons and treated it with about 750mg of Vitamin C (Ascorbic acid).

Today, I prepped for the transferring of fish out and the new treated water in. Here are my supplies: 18 gallon tote (temp fish holding tank), 10 gallon tote (to hold extra tank water), 5 gallon pale (to hold extra tank water).

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps7899b51d.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/Chris7687/media/image_zps7899b51d.jpg.html)

Here were the last test results of the FT before any changes:

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps3364df0b.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/Chris7687/media/image_zps3364df0b.jpg.html)

After the last test, I drained the FT into the 18 gallon tote, 10 gallon tote, and 5 gallon bucket. I then filled the FT from the treated tap water. The tap water was between 8.0-8.2, you can try to decide.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpsbca0212a.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/Chris7687/media/image_zpsbca0212a.jpg.html)

This was added to the system and cycled through once and then I took a complete reading. This is where things get a little odd.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps245dd3fd.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/Chris7687/media/image_zps245dd3fd.jpg.html)

I would assume everything would dilute and drop, what I was surprised to see was the nitrites went up. Can anyone explain this anomaly?

I went back to check on pH about an hour after I took this test. pH had already dropped. I am uncertain whether this is a 7.8 (right) or 7.6 (left). I used the normal pH test (bluish color) and high pH test (peach/orange), either way, it's dropping... Which is back at my original problem.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zps894a1d42.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/Chris7687/media/image_zps894a1d42.jpg.html)

Anyways, a few low blows from researching more today while at work. The lime I purchased isn't the right lime. I needed calcium hydroxide and I picked up and have been using calcium carbonate... Boom, one low blow. Second, after further research into ascorbic acid (vitamin C) it is a hindrance and detrimental to bacteria growth. So, all in all I think I just dug myself a little deeper in the balancing out of my system.

I am open to any and all suggestions. I plan to take a complete reading again in the morning to see how everything has changed. I am anticipating the pH to be at or below 6.0, I swear I have a freaking pH devil living in my GB.

On the bright side of things, I am water testing my wicking rain gutter system tonight for leaks. So far so good... knock on wood.

[bsfman]

I would assume everything would dilute and drop, what I was surprised to see was the nitrites went up. Can anyone explain this anomaly?



From the photo, it looks like your ammonia dropped as the nitrites increased. You get an initial ammonia peak when cycling which is followed by a nitrite peak. The fact that you increased the pH provided a more favorable environment for your nitrifying bacteria to do their job which is probably why you saw a sudden ammonia drop and nitrite jump. If you can keep your pH in the high7 to 8 range for a couple of weeks, it will speed up your cycling process. It's not the ideal range for your plants, but it won't hurt them and it will certainly help your bacteria growth.

[FloridaChris]

These were the results this morning.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/Chris7687/image_zpsc4b7964d.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/Chris7687/media/image_zpsc4b7964d.jpg.html)

So am I pretty much going to have to restart from the beginning now? I have a pale of fish with rising ammonia that I need to figure out what to do with. Going to play the transplant game I guess. Move em from bucket to bucket.

[jackalope]

Try checking the PH of the water you are starting out with .... in a bucket, then go along to the next step - put whatever gravel you use in that bucket of water and check the PH next day (try to make it 12-24 hours in-between steps) - I've had to do this before becuz I couldn't figger out what the cause was - - one step at a time - until you find your culprit! In the meantime, if your fish aren't suffering, leave them in the original tank whilst you go thru the steps to find out the reasons for your problem in a separate container. bsfman may have already answered your question - don't be in too much of a rush to give them fresh water, your original water may just be going thru a weird cycling event - (personal experience :lol: :lol:)

Just my 2 centavos .......