Adjusting PH and adding worms

[dsrtlzrd32]

So I finally got my system built and up and running. I have been running for about five days now (I know, that is hardly any time at all) on a fishless cycle adding ammonia. My base PH after adding water and running for a couple days is 8.2. I have read that the ideal pH is 6.8 to 7. I am hoping I can lower my pH some before I get the fish in there, although I don't need to get all the way there yet as I understand a fully cycled system tends to drop pH naturally.

Here is what I have done so far, day 2 I added a tablespoon of general hyroponics pH down to my 600 gallon system (not knowing anything at all about how it would effect it). Then day three added 8 tablespoons but the pH is still 8.2. day 4 added a cup and a half (24 tablespoons) and that brought the pH down to 7.4 when I tested again three hours later. So I thought that was perfect for where I wanted it for now. But today when I did my morning test, it is back up to 8.2. I am using viastone clay rocks, which is supposed to be the same as hydroton and keep a neutral ph. I tested the rocks in vinegar and they do not fizz. Is the pH down supposed to stabalize at the lower setting or will it always go back up to where my base water supply is and I would have to continually add pH down daily (which I would not do). I have not added water to the system but we did have a light rain last night. I don't think I have anything else in my tank that could possibly be raising it. I am a complete amature at this.

Next question I had was about when to add worms. I have a few plants planted and will be adding more soon. I have read they can help add the bacteria needed for cycling but my concern is what would they eat since I do not have fish. Just curious about that. I like worms, and would add them as soon as i can, but I don't want to be too hasty.

Thanks for the help. :)

[keith_r]

you can put worms in now..
i'd wouldn't bother chasing the ph.. it's fine (especially for cycling) and any nutrients that might be "locked out" of your plants during this time can be added with something like maxicrop with iron..
after your system has been running, your ph will drop... and you'll probably have to buffer it back up

[JCO]

A lot of people put worms in their grow beds...I don't. Think about it...what does a worm do :?: They eat...right...and when they eat, what comes out the other end? Worm poo.....DIRT.. :!:

Regardless of what others may say and do in their systems and what you may have heard, sooner or later you are going to have to take all your media out and re-wash it to get the worm poo out, otherwise what you have is a gravel/dirt bed and your dream of an almost maintenance free Aquaponics System is history.

As for the PH, don't worry about it....just let it cycle naturally. If you have any old aquarium filter floss laying around, put that in your A/P filter...that will help jump start the system. :mrgreen:

[dsrtlzrd32]

Thanks, I won't bother adjusting my pH then. Just let it be. I went ahead and added worms, since I love those little creatures :) Good to know I will need to clean out my gb from time to time. I already had to pull out all the rocks from one of my growbeds because it had a leak. Luckily it was not that difficult. I am going to look for some maxi-crop, just in case I need it. Thanks again.

[bcotton]

I run a reasonable fish to grow bed ratio and I've never had to clean my grow beds.

I contest JCO's logic because worms just eat and break down what is already in the grow bed. If you have problems with too much worm poo your problem isnt the worms. If anything they are helping the existing matter break down faster and dissolve.

brian

[JCO]

worms just eat and break down what is already in the grow bed

You are absolutely right in your quote above and I rest my case. They do not remove anything, they just turn it to worm poo and I speak from not only my experience but the statements of others. Worm poo does not break down because it is pure dirt. Maybe you should check your grow beds to see just what you are growing your veggies in, and Aquaponics system or a Aqua/dirt system. :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

a little about "worm poo" or worm castings as they are more commonly called;
Astounding Facts About Earthworm Casts:
Castings contain more microogansisms,
Castings contain more inorganic minerals,
Castings contain more organic matter,
and in a form more readily available to plants.........
........than is contained in soil!

Other Good Things Found in the Worm Poop
The lowly worm cast is chock full of other useful and essential goodies as well. Also included in this tiny little package:

Enzymes
Proteases
Amylases
Lipase,
Cellulase
These compounds continue to breakdown organic matter even after it has been excreted from the worms

worms imho are a good thing in a growbed.. they don't remove anything but they do "mineralize" solid wastes and worm poo is not 100% dirt!

[jackalope]

I'm with JCO on this ..... unless you want to clean your GB's every so often, I wouldn't bother with worms, whether they leave poop or castings, it still clutters up your GB - more work to do.

As far as getting a system to cycle, I read recently on a Phillipines site that they use a bag or more of chicken manure (high in ammonia) hanging in the water to start the cycling - when the tank has cycled they pull out the manure bag and all is good! I think that this kind of ammonia would probably be more natural (can we say 'Organic' without the USDA suing us for using a term that they have appropriated?), rather than using an ammonia purchased from the local grocery which may or may not be a synthetic ammonia :roll:

[bcotton]

JCO and/or jackalope

Assuming a grow bed with worms needs to be cleaned every so often... Please explain to me why you do not need to clean a grow bed that has no worms?

brian

[bcotton]

I guess i will go ahead and finish my argument. I think my point is obvious that matter isnt created nor detroyed....

the worms are not "creating" castings or "dirt' The castings are converted from pre-existing matter in the grow bed, the worms just change it from fish poo or plant matter or whatever.

Without worms, you would get the same amount of buildup of solids.


brian

[bsfman]

Without worms, you would get the same amount of buildup of solids.


brian

I agree. Worms don't add anything that isn't already there. I also think the worms speed the breakdown of old roots which can trap fish poo and speed clogging.

[JCO]

That's where the true Aquaponic System setup comes into play and in this order:-

1) Fish tank:- contains the fish

2) Sump:- Vessel used to slow down the flow of water so that large particles of poo and uneaten food in addition to micro-particulates can settle to the bottom to be remove at your convenience.

3) Bio-filter:- Vessel used to filter any remaining particulates and house the nitrification bacteria.

4) Grow bed:- Vessel used to house and grow vegetables or any other plant you desire. The only cleaning that may be necessary is to remove any plant root system that might remain in the grow media after the plant has run its course and has to be removed.

I was introduced to Aquaponics in 1967 by a very good friend who is now deceased. I have been actively involved in Aquaponics (a system of one sort or other of my own up and running) since 1987.

My experience level in a very small way, is comparable to Thomas Edison and the light bulb. Over the years I have tried more wild scenarios and configurations of Aquaponic Systems than can be imagined in an effort to recreate the wheel.

I am an Aquaponic Purest. My philosophy is:-

1) Construct the Aquaponic System according to the 4 steps outlined above.

2) Do not add anything to the system that isn't absolutely necessary for it to work properly or that will at sometime in the future create more work.

3) Once set up, keep your finger out of it. Don't try to micro-manage nature.

And that's it.

Now my other philosophy is to always state the facts of how an Aquaponic System works and then allow each and every individual do it their own way.

I consider all the individuals on this forum my friends and I enjoy and delight in reading each and every post made here and I will always try to help where I can.

I will not ever tell anyone "YOU HAVE TO DO IT MY WAY". For every person who has an Aquaponic System up and running, you will find that somewhere in that system, they have inserted a piece of their self. Whether it be worms, or a particular grow media such as fine gravel etc. and that's what makes the world go around.

So with that in mind, I have said my piece about worms in the grow bed. You reap what you sow. :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

if you are overstocking, or underfiltered, you will probably have to clean out your growbeds no matter what you do..
in a discussion, i like to use facts.. and the fact is, worms do add quite a bit to an ap system..and i've seen systems running over 5 years that have not had to have their media "cleaned"
but if you're pushing more solds through the system than it is designed for.. well.. you're going to need maintenance no matter what you do..

[dsrtlzrd32]

Well shoot, this has turned into a pretty good discussion about worms! :) My preference was to just go ahead and add them since I enjoy worms. I even ate one one time to gross out my sisters when I was a boy :shock: . Can't say I would do that again though. Hopefully their castings are benifiting my plants... can't be hurting them at least. I made a mistake of having a bit more shallow growbeds and from what I have read, will mean I have to clean them more frequently.


As far as getting a system to cycle, I read recently on a Phillipines site that they use a bag or more of chicken manure (high in ammonia) hanging in the water to start the cycling

I have chickens and boy do they poop! I will have to look into that.

[bbikebbs]

... but if you're pushing more solds through the system than it is designed for.. well.. you're going to need maintenance no matter what you do..

This is very true for ANY system. Overload it for long enough and you will have to do some maintenance.

[JCO]

Brian, I am not trying to be argumentative and that was not intended to appear as my resume.

If, just in case you haven't seen it since it's on the main site and if you are in the least interested to learn something more about me, check out this link. It will give you a better picture of who I am and what I bring to the Aquaponic table when it comes to knowledge and experience. http://www.diyaquaponics.com/about-me/


Now in answer to your question:


I was just asking for you to expand on your previous statement of why a wormed grow bed would require more maintenance than one without worms.

Answer:
what does a worm do They eat...right...and when they eat, what comes out the other end? Worm poo.....DIRT..


and I rest my case. They do not remove anything, they just turn it to worm poo Worm poo is the purest form of dirt but none the least, it is still dirt.

Now how do you prevent the problem of suffering from a clogged grow bed? Ideally you would construct your system as follows and take particular note of number 2. That is the major defense against clogging and solves the problem greatly and that is then backed up by number 3.

Believe me, if you construct it correctly, what I am telling you is fact.

Here are the 4 steps to creating an Aquaponic System (the purest way)

1) Fish tank:- contains the fish

2) Sump:- Vessel used to slow down the flow of water so that large particles of poo and uneaten food in addition to micro-particulates can settle to the bottom to be remove at your convenience.

3) Bio-filter:- Vessel used to filter any remaining particulates and house the nitrification bacteria.

4) Grow bed:- Vessel used to house and grow vegetables or any other plant you desire. The only cleaning that may be necessary is to remove any plant root system that might remain in the grow media after the plant has run its course and has to be removed.

Now please, operate your Aquaponic System anyway you please and only take my advice with a grain of salt if it does not co-inside with your likes or dislikes. I'm' not here to intimidate or coerce you into doing anything other than what you please. :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

sorry, but saying it's "just dirt" is factually incorrect.. and i stand by my statements

[JCO]

As I previously stated Keith_r:-


Worm poo is the purest form of dirt but none the least, it is still dirt.


That should have smooth your feathers I would have thought.

Here again, we are still talking about an individuals choice as to how to operate their own Aquaponics System and as I said:-


Now please, operate your Aquaponic System anyway you please and only take my advice with a grain of salt if it does not co-inside with your likes or dislikes.

This is not the first time the question of worms in grow beds has been discussed on this forum and each time I have posted to it, my stance has been the same. :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

understood, and my feathers aren't ruffled.. . but sometimes statements like "it's pure dirt" or "just dirt"are just factually incorrect..
i like to discuss and debate, at least when facts are used
worm "poop" is "worm castings";
Earthworms derive their nutrition from many forms of organic matter in soil including decaying plant parts, decomposing remains of animals, and living organisms such as nematodes, protozoans, rotifers, bacteria, fungi. They can produce their own weight in castings every 24 hours. During the digestive process, many insoluble minerals are converted to a plant-available soluble form and long-chain molecules such as cellulose are partially broken down by bacteria in the digestive tract. Investigations show that fresh earthworm casts are several times richer in available nitrogen, available phosphates and available potash than the surrounding topsoil.
Worm castings also contain many beneficial bacteria and enzymes. The analysis of wormcastings reveals that the number of beneficial bacteria in the ejected worm casting is much higher than in the material ingested by the earthworm.

i may have a point of view on things, but i don't base my debates on my opinion, i look for results.. and factually speaking worms break down detrious into forms that are more immediately available for the plants.. i want good plants and a healthy system..i'll use composting worms

[keith_r]

and i forgot to mention the benefits of worm castings as pest control:
Testing has shown that several microorganisms found in worm castings work as effective repellants for a large array of insects. A key element for insect repellency is the level of chitinase-producing organisms. Chitinase is an enzyme that will dissolve chitin. The exoskeleton of bugs is made of chitin [so obviously they don't want to hang out where their skeletons will get dissolved!]. Bugs have various detection mechanisms to determine the level of chitinase in plants and soil. Once the chitinase level is high enough, they will leave the area. Worm castings test with a very high level of chitinase-producing organisms.

Also, some elements in worm castings are able to activate the chitinase-producing organisms found inside plants. Once triggered, these organisms multiply to a level that can be detected by the insects. The repellency effectiveness has been tested and confirmed for white fly, aphids, spider mites and various other bugs. Twenty various plants have been tested showing effectiveness. The rate of repellency is in direct relation to the size of the plant. Spider mites will leave houseplants in about 2 weeks, aphids leave roses in about 6 weeks, and white flies will leave full sized hibiscus in about 3 months.

In November 2002, California Vermiculture was granted a U.S. Patent for the use of worm castings as an insect repellant, and they in the process of obtaining EPA approval to label their worm castings as an insect repellant. Currently, Wormgold® castings are being tested for use against the pine bark beetle.

[jackalope]

The exoskeleton of bugs is made of chitin [so obviously they don't want to hang out where their skeletons will get dissolved!]. :lol: :lol:

Very interesting post .... I've never heard any of that before (Of course, I'm an old redneck and the wife is the gardener - so I don't read a lot about bugs, worms and such :mrgreen: ) If you find any online articles confirming this, I'd appreciate you posting some links so we all can improve our decision-making processes as to whether we want to change our opinion about putting worms in our AP setup - and myself as well when we get back from the Summer in Montana ;)

This is the kind of good info that we all need to learn to make things better in our quest for the perfect 'garden' :!:

[keith_r]

i found this page a while back, it links to several studies (several by ohio state)\
http://www.casting4growth.com/Research.html

here's a newer list of research
http://www.happydranch.com/articles/Wor ... mation.htm (http://www.happydranch.com/articles/Worm_Castings_Reference_Information.htm)

[JCO]

Keith_r,

With all due respect to you as a long time poster and someone I consider a friend and also with respect to the fact that we have been at odds on other things in the past, here is my final response on this matter.

In an Aquaponics System, the sump and bio-filter are designed to eliminate the materials that could clog a system and sooner or later actually become dirt

Worm poo is the purest form of dirt regardless of what it contains... it is none the less, still dirt.

The object of Aquaponics is to raise fish and veggies without the use of dirt...any form of dirt.

My question is this. Is this a forum about Aquaponics or Vermiculture? Your links are to Vermiculture sites and I don't know of anyone who would disagree with them, however...that is not AQUAPONICS. "PERIOD"

"YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO IT MY WAY KEITH".

For every person who has an Aquaponic System up and running, you will find that somewhere in that system, they have inserted a piece of their self. Whether it be worms, or a particular grow media such as fine gravel etc.

But when we talk about the Technologies of Aquaponics, we are talking about the marriage of Hydroponics and Aquaculture and I have never scene it mentioned anywhere in Hydroponics that you should use worms in your grow beds.

SO IF YOU WANT TO ADD WORMS TO YOUR GROW BEDS...HAVE AT IT....

As for this post, I'm out... I find it redundant to have to answer the same question 10 different ways. That isn't a discussion, it's edging on an argument and I won't participate or allow that in any post. :mrgreen:

[Aloha Don]

I have heard that you can maintain a constant ph in your system by adding shells....has anyone tried this or is there a natural way to maintain ph?
Thanks,
Don

[davidstcldfl]

Hi Don,
A mature system usually starts to naturally drop PH. The shells can act as a 'buffer'.
The shells start to dissolve as the ph drops (which slows/halts the PH drop)....if the PH isn't too low, they don't dissolve.

[Aloha Don]

Thanks
That is very helpful.
Since shells are plentiful here, I will throw some in my system.
Don

[keith_r]

sorry to ruffle your feathers jco.. i was just trying to point out that worms in an ap system are a benefit,,, anyone can do it any way they want..
usually when i make a decision, i like to weigh the pros and cons..

regarding the shells.. they'll be more effective if you break them up a bit.. they'll buffer a system to about 7.2-7.4 ph and will gradually dissolve

[keith_r]

scuds perform the same function as worms, assisting in the mineralization of solids in an ap systems. i've found worms and scuds in my filters and my growbeds have healthy populations of both worms and scuds..

[DARRYL]

worms poo dirt where do they find the dirt in an aquponics system??

[keith_r]

worms don't "poo dirt".. read some of the articles posted

[Aufin]

worms don't "poo dirt".. read some of the articles posted

Not intending to be arguementative, but, ummm.......yes they do - depending on your definition of "dirt". According to the online dictionary "dirt" doesn't necessarily have to be anything solid such as tiny, tiny grains of solids such as sand, etc - which is what first came to mind when reading this discussion. From everything I've read/learned from keeping a worm bed for a few years, worms don't eat "dirt". They eat the bacteria that is breaking down the organic stuff in the ground, or in my case, the grow beds. By my reasoning, which to my wife is quite often flawed, worms don't excrete the traditional form of dirt that comes to mind, but rather something "dirty"(doesn't sound right to me either, but I don't know any other way to say it), which may eventually break down further into something else as long as the "dirt" doesn't pile up to an unmanageable level. I don't know what eats worm "dirt", but I would guess something does. Other bacteria, maybe? Just sayin'........
And, I totally agree with the general concensus here........if what you're doing is working for you, then by all means keep on keepin' on.

[multifasited]

I guess i will go ahead and finish my argument. I think my point is obvious that matter isnt created nor detroyed....

the worms are not "creating" castings or "dirt' The castings are converted from pre-existing matter in the grow bed, the worms just change it from fish poo or plant matter or whatever.

Without worms, you would get the same amount of buildup of solids.


brian
That makes prfect sense to me,if it was not already there they could not eat it ,and in mho they probably help keep the
surface area from getting clogged and un-useable ,reducing the surface area of the bed.Very good discussion ,I learned a lot ,There are no real right and wrongs ,the thought and explaininations are very helpful ,understanding
complex processes ,thanks everybody ,I for one learned a lot! Carl

[keith_r]

it gets kind of difficult to get apoint across on a message board, i'm not trying to be argumentative..
no matter what, you'll have solids build up in an ap, or even an aquaculture system.. even if you have the spiffiest filtration system in the world, solids will build up.. (albeit more slowly)
so, my point is that worms do mineralize (to some extent) solids in your media growbed and provide nutrients that are more readily available, or easier to uptake, by your plants..and healthy plants are not only more disease resistant, it's a fact that they are more pest resistant.. so worms in an aquaponic system are not a bad thing.. and i'll leave it at that

[FloridaChris]

So... off of the worms topic. pH - Some things I have found in researching my pH problems I want to share here. The problem with a new system that isn't balanced properly may be due to the akalinity of your water. Carbonate hardness. You want to add Potassium Bicarbonate if you water hardness is to low, this can cause pH to be off. For adding buffers, you can use hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) or a stocking full of limestone and sea shells, but the stocking isn't a quick change measure like the calcium hydroxide. I just did a 80% water change to try to get my system running again, as of last night the pH is holding, ammonia is dropping, and nitrites are on the up. I am going to test the water again in an hour or so. My carbonates from the city range from 170-300 ppm, so I think I am good on carbonates for now, but in the future will be looking for a decent water (kH) test kit. Anyone have a recommendation? The ones in HD are cheap and have horrible reviews from what I have seen. Be careful not to change your pH more than .4 in one day. Although my fish went from < 6.0 to a 7.6 pH a few times and seem to be doing just fine.

[rfeiller]

I use electronic meter purchased at a hydroponics store for about $300 of course they have to be recalibrated with regents from time to time. I think you will
Find the system will run just fine even with fluctuations in pH.
It has been fun ready the post in this thread. JCO is absolutely right aquaponics does not use worms. It would take several different names to identify the several different systems i have. Most incorporate one or more of the composting species of worms. (ironically the common earthworm similiar to the alabama jumper is doing the best in the systems and they were not even supposed to be there!)
Unless you set up your system as JCO explained you will have mucky systems. All but one of systems are mucky. I add azomite and calcium to them also. In my dirty systems with the worms the tomato plants get 4-5' tall and the swiss chard and celery get three foot. You have too decide on how much pain you want to inflict on yourself in exchange fot the results you want and for which crops there needs vary.
My two cents is setup your system according to how the pros do it to be as maintanence free as possible and you will be be very pleased with the results. You can always venture out from there i call mine ponics, since the name bioponics is copywrited. :mrgreen:

[rfeiller]

this is an endless argument. for a cleaner system you incorporate a filter to remove the fish solids prior to entering the grow bed and basically the worms will do very poorly, but a lot cleaner.
i use several systems, i find the cleaner system is less stable and produces less in general, (not talking about lettuce here). my dirty systems (and they do load up) incorporate both worms and organics. if the worms are thriving there is a lot of organics in the water and eventually need to be torn down. I need to tear down four 100gal GB's they are plugged up. they did produce 3 foot tall swiss chard. 5 ft tomato plants, squash, potatoes, sweet potatoes, beautiful flowers, etc. over the last 3-4 years.
if you incorporate worms it becomes an aquaponic/vermiponic system; if you leave plant matter in the grow bed as it rots it produces nutrients and now you have an aquaponic/vermiponic/bioponic system. i have done all three separately and combined. the most productive was the 3-way combination. an aquaponic system is just that aquaponics=aquatic life and water. (composting worms are not aquatic, no matter how long they can survive in an aquais solution.) what's so hard about calling them what they are? worms are not the secrete to successful aquaponics, because it is now more then an aquaponic system. adding additional nutrients to an aquaponic system to supplement the deficiencies could be argued that it is now a hydroponic/aquaponic system ( have a system like that also).
gotta love it; bottom line raising the most nutritious food you can grow while conserving resources.

[urbanfarmer]

Worms poop whatever they eat that is not absorbed into their body for energy or nutrients. Worms do not poop dirt, ever. If a worm eats soil then the worm will poop soil with organic matter. If the worm does not eat soil then it will only poop organic matter.

Dirt is a dirty word; stop using it folks. Worms poop soil and/or organic matter. SOIL IS NOT DIRT. DIRT IS DEAD. DIRT IS DIRTY. SOIL, BY SHARP CONTRAST, IS ALIVE. Do not use this disparaging insult to describe soil; soil has done you no wrong. In fact, all that you are came from the soil! :mrgreen:

Aquaponics is not clearly defined in any scientific or otherwise authoritative literature; therefore, it is not possible to state with any certainty if soil should or should not be part of an aquaponics system. I can tell you that if you use any rock aggregates in your system then you will have soil in your system, inevitably. That's irrelevant. What is relevant is, what does aquaponics mean to you?

Aquaponics is not a science; it's a multidisciplinary application of science into a broad categorization of technologies built around the concepts of aquaculture and hydroponics. The technology has become a spirited movement and to some people imbues a religious type philosophy into their life. I believe in every person's freedom to believe in whatever they want, but those beliefs should not be stuffed down other people's throats. Discussion is quite healthy though! :ugeek: It takes a while to learn that last part... :lol:

[urbanfarmer]

this is an endless argument. for a cleaner system you incorporate a filter to remove the fish solids prior to entering the grow bed and basically the worms will do very poorly, but a lot cleaner.
Define "cleaner" :?: :?: :?:

This statement assumes your use of the word "cleaner" is something good or positive. Please explain why we should make the same assumptions? Are the most productive natural ecosystems that you can think of any "cleaner" than their less productive counterparts?

:mrgreen:

[urbanfarmer]

So... off of the worms topic. pH - Some things I have found in researching my pH problems I want to share here. The problem with a new system that isn't balanced properly may be due to the akalinity of your water. Carbonate hardness. You want to add Potassium Bicarbonate if you water hardness is to low, this can cause pH to be off. For adding buffers, you can use hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) or a stocking full of limestone and sea shells, but the stocking isn't a quick change measure like the calcium hydroxide. I just did a 80% water change to try to get my system running again, as of last night the pH is holding, ammonia is dropping, and nitrites are on the up. I am going to test the water again in an hour or so. My carbonates from the city range from 170-300 ppm, so I think I am good on carbonates for now, but in the future will be looking for a decent water (kH) test kit. Anyone have a recommendation? The ones in HD are cheap and have horrible reviews from what I have seen. Be careful not to change your pH more than .4 in one day. Although my fish went from < 6.0 to a 7.6 pH a few times and seem to be doing just fine.
Yes, carbonates will act as a buffer that will hold the pH in a certain range depending on the equilibrium with other chemical species in the water.

There are some inexpensive and reliable titration test kits from API Master for pH, ammonia, carbonates, etc. A lot of us on here use them with success.

I would stop playing with the pH. If it's between 5 to 9, just give it a while. You're making this too hard on yourself! Have more fun with it! :D

[rfeiller]

this is an endless argument. for a cleaner system you incorporate a filter to remove the fish solids prior to entering the grow bed and basically the worms will do very poorly, but a lot cleaner.
Define "cleaner" :?: :?: :?:
urbanfarmer wrote:
"This statement assumes your use of the word "cleaner" is something good or positive. Please explain why we should make the same assumptions? Are the most productive natural ecosystems that you can think of any "cleaner" than their less productive counterparts?"

I could have probably explained it clearer; cleaner referring to reduced particulate matter reducing the amount of suspended organics the water appears cleaner. also removing the poop and rotting root mass in the GBs reduces the available food for composting worms which can take in up to their weight per day. without sufficient food they will not reproduce, they will shrink in size and cease to exist. Cleaner means little particulate matter to load up the GB aggregate, or in a raft system reducing the sediment.

aquaponics is a compromise of plant and fish growth to attach the term "clean" to it is relative at best. the only "clean" productive ponics system to me is hydroponics. :)

[urbanfarmer]

Okay good! :D

[JCO]

And in next Sunday's sermon we will discuss the question of whether they incorporated worms into the "Hanging Gardens of Babylon!" which I have heard were Aquaponically grown. 8-)

There will, of course, be the usual controversy and dissenters. Don't forget the donation plate when is comes your way. It's all for a worthy cause. 8-)

You want to put worms in your grow beds...have at it...it's your Aquaponic System..! :mrgreen:

[rfeiller]

Love you JCO! Are you giving the serman! If so looking forward. Maybe you can incorporate how you suppliment the nutrients in your systems. I gotta say greens do extremely well with pure aquaponics. I end up not doing so well with fruiting and flowering plants. I have several different types of systems going and trying to get this all wired. Doing a lot with flowers also, wife has a florist business.
Looking forward to you serman on Babylon elevated aquaponics.

[rfeiller]

By the way i look at this forum as a learning tool, not a place for controversity or desention; but as a place were folks can be more productive and compare methods on an apple to apple basis. It does no one any good to read about how great a gardners results are, but fails to include the fact he added five pounds of fertilizers and three pounds of worms and the reader gets discouraged becausr his didn't do so well. UG will let me know if this makes sense! :-)

[JCO]

UG will let me know if this makes sense! Who is UG? :mrgreen: