question on pump.

[pdfangus]

I have just stumbled across this forum while researching aquaponics on line.

I am a conservation Specialist with the local soil and water conservation district. I have worked in Agriculture all of my life and have been at this job going on 15 years. I have become very interested in some of these new and seemingly sustainable methods for food production and am researching how to set up my aquaponics system.

This site looks like a very valuable resource.

i have experience with solar pumping and pump water for my livestock with a home made system that I put together.

Pump longevity has always been my biggest problem until I put in a timer and only run it as long as I need it daily.

looking to avoid those issues with my aquaponic experiment.

I am planning a a 200 gallon start up in modules and can expand in hundred gallon increments after I learn how. I have a 12 volt solar panel avaialble for use. Could use some suggestions on decent but not exhorbitant 12 volt pumps. Have read several threads but have not gotten to one on pumps yet.

[Lordshandyman]

Welcome to the forum and the obsesion.


...I have worked in Agriculture all of my life and have been at this job going on 15 years. I have become very interested in some of these new and seemingly sustainable methods for food production and am researching how to set up my aquaponics system.
Aquaponics isn't new... see this post: Commercial Aquaponics – Why is it not pervasive? (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?1612-Commercial-Aquaponics-%96-Why-is-it-not-pervasive)

It's been around for ages, just hasn't gotten that much attention commercially till now.

As for pumps, I bought a smartpond 560-GPH Submersible Pond Pump from Lowes for around $75. The reviews wasn't the greatest, but mine has run solid for around 9 months with no problems. http://www.lowes.com/pd_26078-60084-DP560_0__?productId=3510010&Ntt=pond+pumps&Ns=p_product_price|0 I forget the watts that it uses, but I remember thinking I could use it with solar if I wanted too. Granted, I would have to use batteries and a converter with a 120 volt pump. Perhaps a 12v pump would be better come to think of it.

From what I have heard, starting and stopping pumps all the time will cause premature wear. I have heard some people that use their pumps on a timer to create their cycles, wear out pumps faster than people that use bell syphons and such.

[pdfangus]

Thanks for the reply....

Perhaps I should calrify my use of a timer.

I built my solar system to water a few head of cattle and first bought a kit from the Ram Company which included a six undred dollar pump and a filtration system. pumping pond water I battled with the filtration system which would clog up every week. Finally the pump expired. Figuring this would be an endless battle I elected to go with a cheaper shurflow pump and also figured out how to filter at the foot valve. (clorox jug over the valve with holes and a nylon ladies stocking over the jug and tied on. that was the end of the filtration problems and did away with the filtration system.) But the solar system ran when the sun was shining pumping water all day long.

Pumps had alife of 2000 hours. was wearing out pumps pumping water I did not need. finally spent some more money and put in a battery, timer and contactor and pump water for one hour every day.gives me more than I need to keep my storage full. Cattle troughs are on gravity flow system form the storage.

However the aquaponics system needs more continuous flow. But I do not have 110 power where it will be. with a small pump I could put a simple inverter and run 120 volt but you loose effeciency that way unless the pump is longer lived than the 12 volt. I was also hoping not to have to use the motor starter relay to run the pump as I do on the cattle water system. (the 12 volt timer won't handle the amperage needed to start the motor.)

[bcotton]

Many people use submersible pumps in aquaponics. From my experience the best way to preserve these type pumps is to leave it on all the time. The pumps are stressed when you turn them on and off and shorten their life. I dont like posting other forums but this was discussed a lot and this post summarizes a lot of great info on pump longevity of http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/barr ... sage/18981 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/barrelponics/message/18981)


far be it for me to try to discourage anyone but for this reason i think solar powered water movement and pump longevity is going to be very challenging. At least with the types of pumps i use. There's other options for water pumps, obliviously.

Something you may look into is air lift pumps. Where you use an air pump to power your water lift. There is no propeller and less moving parts to wear out and you may be able to use pumps with a lot less power requirement than even small pumps.

I've tinkered with them but i have never used one in a system. an example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mEbAWOb ... r_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mEbAWObmvA&feature=player_embedded)

I know that doesnt directly answer your questions abouts olar power but i try to limit my responses to stuff i know something about which isnt solar power =p

brian

[David - WI]

Inexpensive low voltage (12v) DC pumps suffer because it takes so much current through the "brushes" to do any work.

If you have to have DC... I would look for a "brushless" DC pump; possibly something like this: http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Brushless_DC_Magnetic_Drive_Pump_PVDF_3_5_GPM_12_V DC/WU-72021-10?referred_id=778&pcrid=13001626719&gclid=COSzl_2Q1LUCFe0WMgodvUcAZw most of them seem to be rated at around 30,000 hours life.

Also, you lose a lot more energy in the wiring with DC if you have to route the wires any distance; so I would try to keep the solar panel & battery(s) as close to the pump as practical.

[pdfangus]

thanks

I found this one this morning which is rated at 30,000 hrs life as well.

http://opimania.tk/detail/B005EU7ONM.html

[Lordshandyman]

I am planning a a 200 gallon start up in modules and can expand in hundred gallon increments after I learn how. I have a 12 volt solar panel avaialble for use. Could use some suggestions on decent but not exhorbitant 12 volt pumps. Have read several threads but have not gotten to one on pumps yet.
I would think you only need around a 500 GPH pump at least for your first system and next 3 expansions. 110 pumps at this volume are usually under a 100 and last quite a while. I have no experience with 12v pumps, but if they don't last lone, and are expensive to buy... Perhaps you can use a small dc/ac converter and your solar panels to run it. Definitely would need a battery as well, for night water flow and on cloudy days. This could even be an option where you know it is cloudy for a couple days, just bring a charged battery from home and keep your system running during long light outs.

Here is the info on the two pumps that I use.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_26078-60084-DP560_0__?productId=3510010&Ntt=pond+pumps&Ns=p_product_price|0
http://www.lowes.com/pd_81350-48650-WPR2000_0__?productId=3345482&Ntt=waterfall+pump&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dwaterfall%2Bpump&facetInfo=
both are 120 volt smartpond pumps.
560 GPH @55 watts or .55amps = roughly 1320 watts/day or @40 KWH/month which would require at least a 275 watt solar panel system here in Florida, not sure at your location.
2000 GPH @150 watts or 1.4 amps = roughly 3600 watts/day or 108 KWH/month which would require at least a 800 watts solar panel system here in Florida, not sure at your location. But this size pump is way overkill for your small system... It would be more for a 2000 gallon system.

I have not had a chance to prove these numbers, they are just quickly put together from various websites. I do have plans on putting together complete solar pump systems for sale later on. At the moment, my current day job and new son take up most of my time.

[Lordshandyman]

thanks

I found this one this morning which is rated at 30,000 hrs life as well.

http://opimania.tk/detail/B005EU7ONM.html

This one is rated at 11.5 liters/minute or 3.04 gallons/minute or 182 GPH and at what amps/watts to get this 182 GPH? If your first system is 200 gallons, that really isn't enough, could probably skimp buy, but is the 200 gallons including the sumptank and growbed capacity as well, or is this just the fishtank capacity? As soon as you add another bed, you would need another pump, or bigger pump.

[bcotton]

the turn over your tank once an hour is a rule of thumb. Given the constraints it's possible you could compensate for slower turnover with low stocking densities. You could consider adding a substrate to your fish tank to improve ammonia breakdown as well. However, another thing to keep in mind if you are going with slow flow is the dissolved oxygen level. Specifically on hot summer days where water carries less oxygen.


I just caution that the 182 GPH is probably the max the pump will run and will scale down based on how high it needs to pump (head height) and wouldnt the performance change based on how sunny or how good your battery charge is? (i;m asking not telling)


brian

[keith_r]

i'd avoid substrate in your ft, unless you have an undergravel filter,,, even then you'll have to clean the gravel or have to worry about creating "dead" zones, and if you disturb a dead zone, you can release enough toxins to kill your fish

[pdfangus]

wow...I have been reading about this for several days now and the first articles make it sound like any well intended third grader could do it but you guys have thrown enough obstacles at me that I am beginning to think I am not smart enough and I have a college degree.

I can grow vegetables without the fish. I wanted to add the fish but do not want to invest in a start up business...

300 watts of solar and batteries to size and pumps....might be cheaper to buy the catfish.

[dead_sled]

It may be cheaper to buy the fish, depending on how many you plan to consume. If you are looking for an instantaneous cheap way to have fresh fish, this may not be the way. You should way the planned cost of consumed fish versus the expected payback of your new system to determine its financial value. Another value to consider is the quality factor. Do the producers produce a fish of equal or greater quality compared to what you will produce? Are you concerned with the quality of ingredients used to grow the fish that you consume? If you are, you have the ability to produce fish that meet your standards of meat. This value may change the balance considerably. ;)

[pdfangus]

It may be cheaper to buy the fish, depending on how many you plan to consume. If you are looking for an instantaneous cheap way to have fresh fish, this may not be the way. You should way the planned cost of consumed fish versus the expected payback of your new system to determine its financial value. Another value to consider is the quality factor. Do the producers produce a fish of equal or greater quality compared to what you will produce? Are you concerned with the quality of ingredients used to grow the fish that you consume? If you are, you have the ability to produce fish that meet your standards of meat. This value may change the balance considerably. ;)

actually i was more interested in the sustainability and the self sufficiency aspects.....if I am being poisoned by food additives etc then it is too late for me as I am not a spring chicken....I raise my own beef and have for 25 years...don't garden as much as I used to....try to garden pretty organicly now and want to return to producing more of my own food.

but I don't have thousands of dollars just to add fish to the menu.

I am inclined to try some lower cost alternatives to give it a try....if it works then perhaps I can relocate my setup closer to the house and have 120 volt power.

I pump water 800 feet in distance and 40 feet uphill with an $89.oo shurflo pump and a 75 watt panel but I only run it an hour a day.

this setup would be using harvested rain water that I currently do not use for anything else.

thinking of using cheaper 120 volt pumps and having some built in redundancy and running them off of an inverter from my battery on an existing 75 watt solar system.

If this works I can expand based on my livestock water tanks where I have two 250 gallon totes for storage. I have power there as they are nearer the house.

[David - WI]

thanks

I found this one this morning which is rated at 30,000 hrs life as well.

http://opimania.tk/detail/B005EU7ONM.html
The info on that pump is here: http://www.heliatos.info/inserts/topsFloInsert.pdf

It looks like it would possibly be adequate if your grow beds are at the same level as your fish tank; and you're not pumping "up" from a sump or up to a "waterfall" or "spray bar" type aerator. The flow drops off rapidly as the head height increases above 0 feet.

With a 300w solar panel and decent batteries, you ought to be able to run 2 of these plus an air pump if you wanted. You might want to put a strainer on the inlet, I would be worried about "solids" plugging/locking the pump... they are really meant to circulate clean water in a solar heating loop.