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Neil H
01-08-2013, 05:11 AM
Hi All …

While I am not an active member, I am an avid reader and consumer of information….

I come from a large projects environment and for some time now have been trying to figure out why Aquaponics (AP) has not caught on in mainstream farming in a “Big Way”? Aside from the usual barriers to new technology or ideas there must be something else that is hindering the commercial application of this technology….. I thought I would post some thoughts and see what other members think ….?

Is this new unproven technology ? …. The word may be unfamiliar to some, but the concept is readily accepted by many, indeed there are a number of farms in the US which have been recognised and certified as organic AP producers. Hundreds of back yard enthusiasts have proved that AP works, however scaling up seems to be an issue…??? But what is the issue with scaling up? The minute we scale up we are worried about profit, because well that is what scaling up is for … profit. So is AP unproven technology? At a backyard level NO

I believe there is a disconnect between the DIY / backyard enthusiast philosophy and a commercial approach to AP. Let me qualify that statement, I am not saying backyard does not work, it clearly does, but the same philosophy cannot be applied to a commercial setup……

Example 1 : I set up a small AP system at home using IBC containers…. 1000L tank, 1000L growbed, 500L odd sump, pump in sump, flood and drain system with gravel as the grow medium, a couple of tilapia in the tank. The system worked as it should have …. The fish grew and the plants grew…. Yes AP works… Can we take this system and make it into a commercial venture … my suggestion is…………. not with the same sort of thinking.

With AquaCULTURE (AC), specifically the farming of fish, the world is littered with fish AC projects which have failed…..and others that have achieved success …. What is the fundamental difference between the ones which succeed and the ones which fail? In my mind the greatest difference between these is the value of the product for sale at the end of production….. we have open systems, closed systems, filters of an infinite description, but at the end of the day the value of the end product reigns supreme as the key difference. Point in case look at the value of trout vs the value of tilapia….. food conversion rate is not dis-similar, value of end product is vast. As backyard AP enthusiasts we tend to tinker with the systems and more often than not marvel at our success but we like to have hardy fish as the lifeblood of the system and tilapia, carp etc fit this bill perfectly (I am not suggesting that there is an error in this approach from a backyard AP perspective) but they have little value at the end of production. So in summary commercial AP operations not using a high value fish are missing out on a serious revenue source. I am not suggesting that trout are the solution, there may be other options such as barramundi (sp) in Aus, the key is that the selected fish should be of high value, not simply the easiest fish to keep. If the fish are not high value then aside from the “organic” production method, there is no benefit in AP vs a system like Hydroponics, and the operator is looking after fish without the full financial benefit of doing so

The next key failure I believe is the failure of the systems to keep it simple, and the failure of the commercial systems to fully appreciate the cost of power. Certainly from an African perspective the cost of power is astronomical and will not come down any time soon, so systems should be simple and energy efficient. If we go back to my example above …. Perfectly good system, for a backyard enthusiast, but very poor power efficiency if scaled up. I needed a 2000LPH pump to pump the 1m head efficiently enough to effectively flood and drain the system….. this has a minor impact on my utility bill, but scale this up 1000 times and whoa, the effect is no longer negligible ….. Is the solution then not to eliminate the “head” requirement…. Bury the main tank into the ground, so that the elevation of the tank is very similar to or the same as the elevation of the grow beds ….. the efficiency of the pumps deployed are exponentially better…. Power usage is thus exponentially better. A deep water system could potentially eliminate the requirement of a sump all together – further eliminating the requirement for a pump that deals with head.

With small systems we tend to not worry about the solid waste produced by our couple of fish …. We may siphon it out once every two weeks, but further than that we don’t really worry about it. Experience with Koi has taught me that effective and efficient removal of solid waste is critical to maintaining water quality…. Should the same systems employed in koi ponds not be in place for commercial AP? Essential to this is the concept of “bottom Drains” the solids gravitate to the lowest point of the tank or pond and water pumped through the AP system is removed from this point, passing through something like a swirl filter to remove the solids before entering the AP grow beds

Commercial AP systems need to be viewed in a holistic manner…. It is a neat trick that you can grow plants from fish poop, but a trick it will remain until a high value fish is selected along with a high value vegetable crop, in an energy efficient system designed to cater for high stocking densities. Of course the final closing of the loop is to eliminate costly fish foods, while I will not discuss this in this first post, I believe that the trend towards protein recycling and the use of the humble maggot will ultimately solve this issue.



I am really interested in what everyone has to say about the above comments / thoughts … in summary

This is not a critique on existing AP farms in any means, really just discussion points........

keith_r
01-08-2013, 06:44 AM
i think it's because "commercial" producers of vegetables can hydroponically raise more for less, just as an aquaculturist can raise more fish for less $...as an example, an aquaculture company started up near me about a year and a half ago.. indoor facility, with 1 wall of nft tomatoes under lights.. (just as an experiment).. they're running a ras operation, and to be comfortably profitable, they need to raise 100,000 yellow perch/year - this is a small operation, the owner, 1 fullt time guy basically running it, and a couple of part timers - the ft guy also cleans their fish, and they also clean fish that people bring in for a charge - an extra expense - many hoops to go through certification for cleaning/selling cleaned fish - one way around that is to sell live fish but you have to have or create a market.. they "dump" about 300 gallons of water a day which is pretty efficient if you see all the water that they have..the last time i talked to them they were preparing one tank to try raising malaysian river prawns
i think it's more a matter of marketing.. as you note, having the right fish would make a difference (i've seen koi going for thousands btw!) but having commercial quality veggies that you can sell to niche markets would be the key..
i'm sure there are a few "commercial" ap enterprises but i'd bet that most of them rely on other streams of income, such as seminars, training, equipment etc....to be profitable.. friendlies in HI has basically evolved to a low density system where the fish are considered an "extra"
i think it's more a matter of the initial cost at this point.. but really, to make money at it, you have to take a close look at the markets available and target them specifically.. and then look to expand that market and develop secondary income streams..

alex281
01-08-2013, 10:07 PM
I'm really looking forward to the input in this discussion, lately i have been thinking of doing a commercial aquaponics greenhouse. I haven't quite fully moved forward to begin searching for prices and finding out the investment costs and profit margins, but i agree with keith that finding the right market is key and very possible.

urbanfarmer
01-08-2013, 11:41 PM
While I am not an active member [...]
YOU ARE NOW! :lol:

I would like to address some of the things you said in parts as your post is quite comprehensive. First of all, welcome to the forum. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we are all very happy you have decided to join our discussion, and wow what a discussion.



Of course the final closing of the loop is to eliminate costly fish foods, while I will not discuss this in this first post, I believe that the trend towards protein recycling and the use of the humble maggot will ultimately solve this issue.
You have made 2 excellent points here. First, the rising cost of fish food due to the heavy reliance on fish meal as the protein source for fish feeds coupled with the rising cost of energy results in a rising cost of fish feed worldwide. The associated cost increase in fish production significantly narrows the profit margins attainable for low to medium value fish thereby eliminating the viability of some business models and, in some cases, in entire geopolitical areas of the world.

Second, any type of nutrient recycling in a closed system needs to approach high efficiency to become part of a commercially viable model. The spirit of the aquaponics movement aims to do just this. The BIG IDEA here is that we need to turn byproducts into coproducts in our production systems. This is not limited to agricultural systems. This philosophy has been at the heart of human progress and innovation from before recorded history. It's nothing new. What is new are the scientific discoveries and their subsequent applications to technology that fuels all of this "tinkering" we are all doing. For example, a lot of ideas I have independently come up with that seem so amazing and revolutionary often become reality in just a few years. Someone else figures it out just the same or sometimes in a better way! There are millions of people out there with the right education and intellect to come up with the best ideas of our time. To draw analogy, Einstein was just the guy that got off his butt and published his papers and let the world know "HEY WE CAN DO THIS!" In no way was he the only human being during his time that had figured out or would have figured out the same ideas. Similarly, we all share the same thoughts and concerns for this world and I hope we can all move forward together so that our children and our children's children will have a chance to carry on their fathers' work. :mrgreen:

urbanfarmer
01-09-2013, 12:03 AM
I come from a large projects environment and for some time now have been trying to figure out why Aquaponics (AP) has not caught on in mainstream farming in a “Big Way”? Aside from the usual barriers to new technology or ideas there must be something else that is hindering the commercial application of this technology….. I thought I would post some thoughts and see what other members think ….?

Is this new unproven technology ? …. The word may be unfamiliar to some, but the concept is readily accepted by many, indeed there are a number of farms in the US which have been recognised and certified as organic AP producers. Hundreds of back yard enthusiasts have proved that AP works, however scaling up seems to be an issue…??? But what is the issue with scaling up? The minute we scale up we are worried about profit, because well that is what scaling up is for … profit. So is AP unproven technology? At a backyard level NO

It really is just as you say. It has not caught on because of the usual barrier to new technology. The scientific community has not quantified the mechanics of aquaponics. At best, we can qualify some, if not most, of a system's parameters. However, we can quantify very few and the supporting research is nearly nonexistent. With that in mind, consider the process of creating a business plan, proposing it to investors, and winning commitments from funding sources to create your capital investment and turnover capital. It's not that easy. For example, how hard is it to get the money to start a "regular" farm? If it was that easy, a lot more people would be starting a business (and a lot more people would be going out of business). People with money to invest do not just throw it away. They have to quantify their investment. If we can't even quantify our inputs and outputs to a system that is far less variable than the marketplace, what hope do we have of securing funds for a commercial aquaponics venture? Anyway, I could go on, but I think you see my point.




I believe there is a disconnect between the DIY / backyard enthusiast philosophy and a commercial approach to AP.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. :mrgreen: Commercial operations are inherently for profit. DIY / backyard operations are done for so many reasons, well, there's just no comparison. I've met folks doing it simply for the fun of it. I have met people doing it to offset their food bill. I'm sure we all know someone running a backyard system in the hopes one day they will go commercial. I have even heard of folks doing it to grow most of their food while they are completely off-grid in a zombie apocalypse style living scenario somewhere in Montana (or the like).

urbanfarmer
01-09-2013, 12:22 AM
Is this new unproven technology ? …. The word may be unfamiliar to some, but the concept is readily accepted by many, indeed there are a number of farms in the US which have been recognised and certified as organic AP producers. Hundreds of back yard enthusiasts have proved that AP works, however scaling up seems to be an issue…??? But what is the issue with scaling up? The minute we scale up we are worried about profit, because well that is what scaling up is for … profit. So is AP unproven technology? At a backyard level NO

Hm, this is a tricky question. How do you prove technology in your terms?

What if I told you I have designed a system that can produce 1000 pounds of fish a month with all the fish feed grown onsite for free and your only cost would be a few hours of labor a week and the whole system including processing facility for the fish and feed would fit in a 30' x 30' area (roughly) and the whole thing could be built for under $1000 USD. If fish price is $4 per pound that's a $4000 per month income and your electric bill would be under 5 kWh for the month (that's about 170 watt pump running 24/7). I have this much unused space in my backyard right now... imagine! (I know it sounds insane, but I call her the world hunger problem solver, haha)

However, is this technology proven? I can argue yes. But, if you tell me to prove it by building it and showing it works. Okay, let's say I do that too. Now is someone going to loan me the money to do this on a large scale? Let's say 100 times bigger? Who will loan me $100K to do this? Maybe some angel investor, but they require clean and clear business plans that at least give them some idea for their ROI. Can we propose such a business model with a high level of confidence for success? How on earth do we quantify that? Or maybe we have to go THAT FAR to prove a technology?

Well, this post made a lot less sense than I had hoped, but I maybe it will open up some discussion and I will have a chance to clarify.

Neil H
01-09-2013, 01:04 AM
Thanks for the replies guys, some interesting points raised

@ keith_r Excellent points, a commercial market for what you produce is key, but AP is not selling new products, simply food, the local market would need to be defined of course but they exist worldwide
I think the initial costs are driven by the design and if the correct design is implemented then the capital costs may look very very different to an upscaled backyard version

@urbanfarmer .... wow some great discussion points there....
nutrient recycling will be the fuel for farming of the future IMO.... whether this is in the form of maggots digesting slaughter house waste or animal waste fueling biogas generators to offset power costs, with shrinking agricultural land and increasing populations, this is a no brainer

I agree that the backyard and commercial AP systems are apples and oranges, that was essentially what i was trying to get at in a round about way ..... have commercial operations being trying to make apple pies using oranges? Have commercial operations based their systems on the wrong foundation??

Your points on proven technology are valid ..... and perhaps one of the biggest hurdles for funding ....

Here are some other thoughts
AP requires only a clean water source, NO arible land .... a mine waste dump cound be used where nothing else grows.....

How would you design a commercial operation if you had an option for funding?

urbanfarmer
01-09-2013, 01:32 AM
nutrient recycling will be the fuel for farming of the future IMO.... whether this is in the form of maggots digesting slaughter house waste or animal waste fueling biogas generators to offset power costs, with shrinking agricultural land and increasing populations, this is a no brainer

I have to stop you there. It's not the future anymore, it's the present. :mrgreen: Exciting times! Albeit, we're just at the cusp of the modernization of ancient agricultural concepts, but that's always the case; is it not? I know for a fact very large commercial aquaponic systems are being built in the central parts of the US, and I mean BIG. They take time to build. Everything is happening, but it will take time. Legal red tape, construction delays, and (as we have been discussing) procurement of capital investments. All the technologies you have discussed have already been implemented and successfully and profitably used in the last decade. Governments, financial institutions, corporations, NGOs, and individual investors are all flooding money into these agricultural technologies. Aquaponics will be mainstream in the following years, worry not on this. (No puns were harmed in the making of these sentences.)



How would you design a commercial operation if you had an option for funding?
That's a tricky question with no one-size-fits-all answer. Climate, seasonal patterns, availability of cheap system inputs, government regulations, and local market prices would strongly influence the design. Furthermore, what type of funding options are available? Is it a loan or a grant or a silent partner or an operating manager type partner? Does the design need to account for a small upfront investment with the system having upward scalability as profits come in or is the system designed for a specific annual revenue dictated by the investors portfolio size which is already predetermined? What I'm saying is, it's not aquaponic technology that really presents the challenge to an aquaponics business. It's designing a business model that works and gathering the funding and leading a team to make it happen. Because if you're not making money, it's just a hobby.

"Efforts and courage are not enough without purpose and direction." --John F. Kennedy

JCO
01-09-2013, 06:59 PM
Welcome to the forum...and thanks for the great post. I realize I'm not on track with the subject, but would like to know where you live. :mrgreen:

Neil H
01-09-2013, 10:25 PM
Welcome to the forum...and thanks for the great post. I realize I'm not on track with the subject, but would like to know where you live. :mrgreen:

Thanks

I live in South Africa at the moment

urbanfarmer
01-10-2013, 05:56 AM
I live in South Africa at the moment
What are your ideas for aquaponics? :D

Neil H
01-10-2013, 06:50 AM
I live in South Africa at the moment
What are your ideas for aquaponics? :D

was waiting for that Q

your points on a system designed for the local environment and capital available are valid

but what if we as a community designed what we think is a good commercial AP system ....... there is vast experience in this forum ... could be fun .... disclaimers would be very NB though

its a funny thing AP we think it is this new technology and a wonder method for farming and dont really want to talk about commercial plans and operations because we think it is this trump card .... so we work in isolation .... but at the end of the day the more commercial AP projects there are the better our understanding the more this will be main stream .....

discussing plans are the first port of call .....

urbanfarmer
01-10-2013, 12:43 PM
Okay! Where do you want to start?

alex281
01-10-2013, 08:10 PM
Now Things are Getting even more interesting :mrgreen:

Neil H
01-11-2013, 01:31 AM
Okay! Where do you want to start?


Assumptions

Location:
Where are we... i.e. climate .... i only know moderate sub tropics climate well.... but we could do two systems.... one for a moderate env and one for a cold climate??


over 100 views, is anyone else going to participate??

davidstcldfl
01-11-2013, 04:48 AM
Hi Neil, welcome to the forum.... :)


over 100 views, is anyone else going to participate??
Sorry Neil, In the AP forums, we quite often see the 'new guys' come on board, all excited and immediately wanting to go commercial.
There's nothing wrong with that, a good percentage of us here and at other sites have had that 'bug'.
Answering the same questions and talking about the same topic, over and over again...well, it's not that we don't enjoy it, but....

I'll try to post my thoughts soon, right now I should already be getting ready to go to work at the farm.

urbanfarmer
01-11-2013, 06:33 AM
Aquaponics, she is a harsh mistress indeed.

David - WI
01-11-2013, 07:52 AM
If you have time to read through this, you might get a feel for some of the "problems" that people face going "commercial": http://bayviewcompass.com/archives/11665

Here is a real estate listing for one of the other commercial systems that was in all the local newspapers as a "cutting edge" urban farm: http://www.bizbuysell.com/Business-Opportunity/Urban-Sustainable-Aquaponics-USA/667278/

If they were making money, they wouldn't be trying to sell out just because they didn't have money to expand. :roll:

dead_sled
01-11-2013, 09:18 AM
I am definitely not a fan of publicly funded bailouts. I hope they come out of all this with a better understanding of how to make it work. That would benefit all of us. I don't like seeing fish and Benjamins wasted.

davidstcldfl
01-11-2013, 04:37 PM
Aquaponics, she is a harsh mistress indeed.
She sure can be...just getting home from my mistress.

davidstcldfl
01-11-2013, 04:43 PM
Wow Dave, thats an interesting link you posted. I just wanted to glance at it, but I ended up reading at about a 1/4 of it.

Neil H
01-14-2013, 04:58 AM
Hi Neil, welcome to the forum.... :)


over 100 views, is anyone else going to participate??
Sorry Neil, In the AP forums, we quite often see the 'new guys' come on board, all excited and immediately wanting to go commercial.
There's nothing wrong with that, a good percentage of us here and at other sites have had that 'bug'.
Answering the same questions and talking about the same topic, over and over again...well, it's not that we don't enjoy it, but....

I'll try to post my thoughts soon, right now I should already be getting ready to go to work at the farm.

Hi David,

I hear your comments on the "new guy commercial" side of things and yes i can see how this thread would be viewed in this light... I have been actively reading up about aquaponics for several years now, so i would like to think that post count would not be the only criteria for the new guy definition .... none the less i fully understand where you are comming from.

For the record i have no plans to go commercial at this stage, i dont have the space nor am i in the country i intend settling down in ....

Perhaps i should have explained the above in greater detail at the onset ....



If you have time to read through this, you might get a feel for some of the "problems" that people face going "commercial": http://bayviewcompass.com/archives/11665

Here is a real estate listing for one of the other commercial systems that was in all the local newspapers as a "cutting edge" urban farm: http://www.bizbuysell.com/Business-Opportunity/Urban-Sustainable-Aquaponics-USA/667278/

If they were making money, they wouldn't be trying to sell out just because they didn't have money to expand. :roll:

Thank you for the links .... and i guess it really does speak to my thread title ... why is it not pervasive ???

the first link i found fascinating ....

1. for the initial phase they scaled up a small system ..... exactly what i said shouldnt be done...... it did not work
2. the fish were not high value
3. the investor clearly misunderstood or miss interpreted the technology
4. system was not balanced, there was a conflict between the invester and the experts
5. on face value anyway the emphasis seemed to be on fish not on combined fish and veg produce
6. as i said in my initial post, build up of fish solids was a huge problem, the system was not designed to handle this.

It would be great if we shared more experiences and thoughts around commercial operations..... in my mind anyway the think tank that will give rise to the full commercialisation of these systems lies within forums like this one ...............

urbanfarmer
01-14-2013, 08:29 AM
The Natural Green Farms model is similar to plans on the drawing board in Chicago. The Chicago Sustainable Manufacturing Center is working with the Illinois Institute of Technology to develop a vertical farm called The Plant for a former meatpacking plant. It would raise tilapia and vegetables by recycling wastewater from fish tanks to nourish the plants.REF: http://www.jsonline.com/business/98569659.html

When I first saw this system I thought, it sure seems like they're copying that Chicago meat factory AP setup. This article confirms it. I thought, "GEE, someone didn't do their market research because the economic feasibility of this kind of operation faces many challenges in an strongly agricultural state." Running this thing indoors is what put the nail in the coffin. The investment capital is absurd for the production. Their electric bill is over $3000 a month. I'm not even sure how many fish they have in there, but I would estimate their fish feed cost in somewhere in the $300 - $500 range a month, and that's assuming they're not maximizing their fish production (less feed, slower growth).

FOLKS, THE POINT OF ANY AP SYSTEM IS TO RECYCLE WASTE BYPRDOCUTS OF A SYSTEM AND REUSE THEM CHEAPLY OR FREE AS A COPRODUCT FOR A 2ND CASH CROP. IN PURE AQUACULTURE 1/2 YOUR OPERATING COST, ALONE, IS USUALLY FISH FEED BASED ON PRODUCTION/YIELD. IT WOULD BE CHEAPER TO GROW THE LETTUCE OUTSIDE IN CHEAP POLYTUNNELS THAN THIS MADNESS.

I can't imagine what other costs they have associated with their operation, but it looks like more than 1 person runs this fiasco. $3000 a month is too little to split for a full-time salary for more than 1 person. The high investment cost, high cost of operation, and poor market positioning has doomed this operation to fail from the start. Never underestimate the power of laying out a good business model and taking the time to research and draft a business plan. Problems like this would have been avoided before spending a penny (not to mention the likely million or millions they spent). Whoever buys this business is a complete idiot. $1.5 million investment to generate a few thousand dollars a month? Juts retired off your 1.5 million, the interest off that will pay you more sitting in the bank.

Man, what a joke. If this business was a boat, I would liken it to the Titanic sinking except it would have to strike the iceberg that sunk it as soon as it left dock (the champagne wouldn't even have time to wash off). I have never seen an actual business with a negative ROI built-in from the start. I hope the folks who set this thing up come out of it okay. I hope their story serves as a portend to those that expect the "if you build it they will come" philosophy to carry their business to success. Do not let their sacrifice be in vain folks! Let us learn from this monumental failure! :mrgreen:

David - WI
01-14-2013, 08:53 AM
They are (or were) also here in Wisconsin, not Florida.

http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/aquaponics-farm-closed-farmer-hopes-to-restart-it/article_441e5aa2-3c4f-11e1-89ae-0019bb2963f4.html

urbanfarmer
01-14-2013, 09:03 AM
They are (or were) also here in Wisconsin, not Florida.

http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/aquaponics-farm-closed-farmer-hopes-to-restart-it/article_441e5aa2-3c4f-11e1-89ae-0019bb2963f4.html
OH, I gotcha. The for sale pages showed "Racine, Wisconsin (Racine County)". To be honest, putting it in Florida only makes things worse for this type of indoor AP business.


Investment is the key to unlocking any Natural Green Farms future, Olson continued, saying, “I don’t know a guy who works harder than Joe. And I’m a firm believer that hard work eventually pays off.”
This kind of thinking is what kept these fools on their sinking ship. Just jump off already; save yourself and what you can! Unfortunately, this is not Disneyland. Hard work does not eventually pay off if working harder does not yield profit. This is business. We compete in an open market against other for-profit organizations. The name of the game is profit not hard work. You can't take the wonderful philosophy of green technologies or aquaponics and translate that into a for-profit business model. Non-profit is a different story, but as the original poster stated, scaling up a backyard system to a commercial system has inherent flaws. Well, this example failure is why.

davidstcldfl
01-14-2013, 03:00 PM
Hi Neil, Sorry, I was rushing to get ready the other day. It's tuff to communicate by written word alone.

Here, and at almost any forum, there will be lots of folks that will follow along and not add anything. They may feel like they don't know enough yet, to feel comfortable doing so.
I belong to a garden site where it's mainly about growing tomatoes. I've grown them for many years, but once I started reading there.... well, I realized how little I knew about tomatoes.


You made some good points...

1. for the initial phase they scaled up a small system ..... exactly what i said shouldnt be done...... it did not work
2. the fish were not high value
3. the investor clearly misunderstood or miss interpreted the technology
4. system was not balanced, there was a conflict between the invester and the experts
5. on face value anyway the emphasis seemed to be on fish not on combined fish and veg produce
6. as i said in my initial post, build up of fish solids was a huge problem, the system was not designed to handle this.



Here's my 2 cents on the above...

1- Your correct, if you add part of #4 to #1. Start with a bad 'small system', scale up, and it's just going to be a bad 'big system'.

I think anyone wanting to go commercial 'must' try it small scale 1st. This applies to someone wanting to run a commercial setup and/or invest in one. (see # 3)

So much can be learned this way. Reading training manuals and all the posts at any of the AP forums is a great foundation. Getting fish pooh on your hands is a whole another story.
Friendly's AP in HI, USA teaches this in their courses. They teach to start with a small system and learn by doing. Plus, then you have your 'now grown' fish to move to your 1st commercial system.

I work at Sahib aquaponics in Orlando (Winter Park) FL. I've given lots of tours and have seen the 'light bulb' go on, (many times) when I explain something to a person, rather then the person seeing something on-line. It's even more so, when we have volunteers come and work there.

Back in the day, we'd call the idea of aquaponics "COOL"...now they say it's "SEXY" Once someone realizes that it's actually kind of boring, doing the same thing over and over. It losses the sexiness pretty quick.



2- Most seem to like tilapia because it's so easy to breed your own. Your correct, fish with a higher value 'could be' better. You mentioned barramundi as an example, but I understand that in AU, they are getting them to breed in lab's. That means even higher start up costs

The feed cost has already been mentioned.
I went to an ag conference here in FL. One of the speakers were talking about aquaculture. What stuck out to me was, when he said 'a penny a pound' difference in fish feed cost, could make or break a farmer. He said aquaculture farmers in FL made less then ones in GA, simply because the other guys were closer to the factory, where the fish feed was made.


#2, 5 and #6.... Friendly's just issued their newest newsletter a few days ago.
PM me if anyone would like a link to the newsletter. It's not on the 'back issues' list yet...#106



In it, they shared how one of their students built a low density system and only had 6 pounds of fish. The 'Friendly's' recommendation for their size system was 76 pounds of fish. Then, they figured the student was only feeding aprox 1/10th of the feed they should be. The plants were starting to show signs of deficiencies.

Now Friendly's will be doing more studies on how little fish, one really needs. This sure would eliminate a lot of cost, problems and extra work.



#3 and the second half of #4

I know that dance..... :roll:



On another note...which I believe Urban Farmer already mentioned ....ROI.

Sahib did a search and found out the average organic farmer, only made 25K a year. I'll have to ask him for more info on details with that figure.

I just mention it because, if you have a large investment, and your actually successful/profitable...will you make enough to even pay the investors, let alone make enough to live on...?



As far as the commercial farm it's self...to me, it seems like one needs to build a smaller commercial system, being able to be run by one or two people...maybe with a part timer or two, when needed.

OR...go MEGA commercial size. But then it's back to 'where' does the funding come from ?



As far as the manager/farmer....you better have it in you, being a farmer that is. Not just day dreaming and thinking how 'cool or sexy' it would be, to be a 'famer'.

As far as an investor, if your the kind that hears your manager/farmer tell you, the drain needs to be a 2 inch line and run down hill....

as you sit behind your desk and you 'invision' making it a 1/2 inch line that can just be thrown on the ground with no problems.. :? ..you best stick to the stock market instead.

urbanfarmer
01-14-2013, 06:58 PM
True, we didn't even address that being a farmer is hard work. I think most people really enjoy hard work if it's something they love or at least like. The stress level in farming is the exact opposite of trading the stock market. I will take farming any day!

Compared to most small businesses, starting a farm is one of the easiest things to make successful. Being in direct control of the cost and quality of your product is an inherently rewarding aspect of it... well, to me! :lol:

urbanfarmer
01-14-2013, 08:23 PM
Here's a neat one I ran across: http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/economi ... onics.html (http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/economics-of-aquaponics.html)

dead_sled
01-15-2013, 11:16 AM
Great article. Thanks. Definitely stresses the need for a good plan, including what and where to market the goods. Similar to any other business.

davidstcldfl
01-15-2013, 02:54 PM
Interesting article UF.

Looking at the picture in the article....I wonder why they spent all the extra money to have rasied raft beds...?

thcoolest
01-15-2013, 09:38 PM
Interesting article UF.

Looking at the picture in the article....I wonder why they spent all the extra money to have rasied raft beds...?


Cause it saves them from having to bend over all the time would be my guess. I have raised beds, and my back still gets tired after a while.

David - WI
01-16-2013, 03:05 PM
When I first saw this system I thought, it sure seems like they're copying that Chicago meat factory AP setup. This article confirms it. I thought, "GEE, someone didn't do their market research because the economic feasibility of this kind of operation faces many challenges in an strongly agricultural state." Running this thing indoors is what put the nail in the coffin. The investment capital is absurd for the production. Their electric bill is over $3000 a month. I'm not even sure how many fish they have in there, but I would estimate their fish feed cost in somewhere in the $300 - $500 range a month, and that's assuming they're not maximizing their fish production (less feed, slower growth).
When I first saw them in the newspaper several years ago, there were some things that made me say "That's not going to work"; but running the thing indoors wasn't one of them. There are a lot of advantages (and some big disadvantages)... it's been 10F here at night and we had 18" of snow in one night; heating a greenhouse & keeping the snow off of it are not easy in this climate.

Our days are short (sunrise 7:22 and sunset 4:43 today) and the sun is low in the sky... so it makes some sense to run the lights at night when electricity is cheaper and have it dark during part of the day instead. In the summer, the heat from the lighting is being generated at night instead during the heat of the day when it's it's harder to manage.

Security (bio-security), pest control, temperature control, should be easier in a building than outdoors or in a greenhouse. Also, an old factory offers 3-phase, high-voltage (480v sometimes) power and usually plenty of water/sewerage capacity which ought to save both initial investment and operating cost.


I can't imagine what other costs they have associated with their operation, but it looks like more than 1 person runs this fiasco. $3000 a month is too little to split for a full-time salary for more than 1 person. The high investment cost, high cost of operation, and poor market positioning has doomed this operation to fail from the start. Never underestimate the power of laying out a good business model and taking the time to research and draft a business plan. Problems like this would have been avoided before spending a penny (not to mention the likely million or millions they spent). Whoever buys this business is a complete idiot. $1.5 million investment to generate a few thousand dollars a month? Juts retired off your 1.5 million, the interest off that will pay you more sitting in the bank.
If you believe the numbers in the last article, they were selling up to 5,000 heads per week (at $1.50/each?) plus some fish... about $35,000/month in sales maybe?

That being said, we're building in an old factory and expect to do a similar dollar volume in sales for 1/10 the price they are asking. :o

davidstcldfl
01-16-2013, 06:25 PM
Interesting article UF.

Looking at the picture in the article....I wonder why they spent all the extra money to have rasied raft beds...?


Cause it saves them from having to bend over all the time would be my guess. I have raised beds, and my back still gets tired after a while.


At 1st, that's what I was thinking too. But, they still aren't very high...not even close to waist high. They spent the extra $ to add bottoms to the beds (instead of on the ground) and to support all that weight. Just a little higher would of been nice.

My buddy has a raft bed at waist high, he has a slight physical handicap. It sure is sweet working on his system though.

Maybe their ground is so hard, it was easier to pipe the beds by raising them...?

davidstcldfl
01-16-2013, 06:31 PM
That being said, we're building in an old factory and expect to do a similar dollar volume in sales for 1/10 the price they are asking.
Wow Badger,keep us posted ... :)

David - WI
01-17-2013, 08:05 AM
Also notice the real estate listing is $1.1 million for the property... which is a 185,000 sf four-story factory building. That leaves roughly $500,000 for the aquaponic system and inventory (plus I suppose whatever else is left in the building).

The aquaponics people didn't own the building, they were renting about 1/10 of it... but I imagine they owe the landlord a ton because he was also their main investor. It looks like they are trying to recoup some of their losses by adding them into the purchase price; and the investor is trying to unload the building in the bundle?

davidschaffer
01-21-2013, 07:44 AM
Has anybody experienced these numbers? " A commercial aquaponic system utilizing maximum floor space and a strict, balanced diet for the fish are the mark of a successful system. Such system can produce an extremely high numbers of final food stuffs. For example, a greenhouse approximately 37 feet wide by 100 feet long (3700 sq. ft.) can house an aquaponic system capable of producing 50 to 60 thousand heads of premium lettuce and approximately 11,000 pounds of fresh Tilapia per year. An aquaponic system of this size can be a rewarding and profitable business and could be operated successfully by a small number of persons or a family. "

I am hoping to start with a green house about half of that size and expand as finances allow. I will be taking one of Will Allen's ( Growing Power ), weekend courses this winter/spring and am planing on using the model of a 4' wide by 5' deep in ground trench setup. Any thoughts?

Thanks

David - WI
01-21-2013, 10:47 AM
I think you would be hard pressed to heat a greenhouse in Michigan for less than $1,000/month in the winter. (edit)

Try the calculator here: http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/heat-calc.shtml

Assuming only 60F inside temp and a decent twinwall polycarbonate greenhouse; I come up with about 40,000 cf of natural gas per month, and I think ours costs about $0.022 per cf = $880 per month? (It shows 443 gallon of propane at 2.43/gallon = $1076 or 11,889 kw of electric and ours is about $0.11/kw = $1308.)

If you just have say a 6 mil poly greenhouse instead of the twinwall polycarbonate panels, the heating cost is more than double.

davidschaffer
01-21-2013, 11:52 AM
I think you would be hard pressed to heat a greenhouse in Michigan for less than $1,000/month in the winter. (edit)

Try the calculator here: http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/heat-calc.shtml

Assuming only 60F inside temp and a decent twinwall polycarbonate greenhouse; I come up with about 40,000 cf of natural gas per month, and I think ours costs about $0.022 per cf = $880 per month? (It shows 443 gallon of propane at 2.43/gallon = $1076 or 11,889 kw of electric and ours is about $0.11/kw = $1308.)

If you just have say a 6 mil poly greenhouse instead of the twinwall polycarbonate panels, the heating cost is more than double.

Thanks for the info.
My plan is to use an outdoor wood boiler. By keeping the tanks in the ground, It shouldn't be a problem to keep the water plenty warm. With all that mass and the heated cement slab, I shouldn't have to much trouble keeping up on the wood supply. I will likely run loops in a raft type system. I have a lot of plumbing/electrical experience that should come in handy. There is a guy in my area that heats 5 green houses year round using an outdoor woodboiler. I am going to check out his set up a little closer this week.

David - WI
01-21-2013, 07:05 PM
Hmmm.. it's a full cord every two days, according to the fuel conversion numbers on that site; you would need a full-time stoker! :o

If you can pull it off, more power to you... the greenhouses around here (that I see anyway) are empty & cold in the winter, but I have no experience with them, so who knows?

davidschaffer
01-21-2013, 07:32 PM
Hmmm.. it's a full cord every two days, according to the fuel conversion numbers on that site; you would need a full-time stoker! :o

If you can pull it off, more power to you... the greenhouses around here (that I see anyway) are empty & cold in the winter, but I have no experience with them, so who knows?

I talked with the owner today and it is actually 8 greenhouses and I believe 5 outdoor wood boilers. He spends around $25 grand per winter to heat them. He doesn't use in floor radiant heat, he uses heat exchangers/blowers. I told him of my thoughts on heating a slab and the tanks and he had concerns with its ability to heat the greenhouse as a whole. Very nice guy. I look forward to meeting him. I do believe that if I had a north/south green house, solid wall on the north end, heated slab and tanks, maybe along with forced air exchanger, I could make it work. Using a new biomass boiler wood likely help. Although, maybe growing indoors ( insulated ) and using grow lights might be more cost effective. Considering the advancements with full spectrum led's. Man, I have a lot of homework to do. I do appreciate the feedback and will keep you posted on the progress.

davidstcldfl
01-22-2013, 06:18 AM
Check out this style of green house. Looks like it would help in your heating battle....
http://energyfarms.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... ese-style/ (http://energyfarms.wordpress.com/2010/04/05/solar-greenhouses-chinese-style/)

http://www.roperld.com/science/solargreenhouses.htm

Here's something else to consider...
SHCS...How It's Done..! (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?51-SHCS-How-It-s-Done-!)


Keep your fish and veggies warm, says the guy that lives in FL and gets cold @ 75.... :P

David - WI
01-22-2013, 11:54 AM
I like the idea of the solar greenhouse, but I'm still not sure it's cost effective if consider the cost to build it and provide supplemental heat.


On a chilly mid-February night, the temperature inside their greenhouse remained 10-15 °C (18-27 °F) warmer than outside. The effect was even more pronounced in Manitoba, where indoor temperature on a cold February night remained 30 °C (54 °F) warmer than outdoors.

I suppose it depends on what your "target" temperature is.

It was -6°F here this morning so "54°F warmer than outdoors" is only 48°F... when it gets down to -22°F outside the water in the greenhouse would be frozen! (We occasionally have -30°F temperatures.)

The cost for supplemental heat to maintain 75°F might still be very high?

davidstcldfl
01-22-2013, 08:47 PM
I like the idea of the solar greenhouse, but I'm still not sure it's cost effective if consider the cost to build it and provide supplemental heat.

The cost for supplemental heat to maintain 75°F might still be very high?

Heating to 75F in a 'cost effective manner'.... Most folks can't even do that with their house... :(

Did you look at the 3rd link I posted on Subterranean Heating ?
SHCS...How It's Done..! (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?51-SHCS-How-It-s-Done-!)

Combine that and a solar green house, that's about the best as it's going to get.

Looking at your winter tempts.....forget the greenhouse.....move to FL... :P

bsfman
01-22-2013, 10:16 PM
Looking at your winter tempts.....forget the greenhouse.....move to FL... :P

Way cheaper in the long run! :)

davidschaffer
01-23-2013, 04:45 PM
What do you all know about yellow perch? I am sure they take longer to raise then talapia but I believe they are much more tolerant of the cold. What I could do is keep the water at ideal perch temps for 9 month of the year and focus on cold weather crops like spinach and Kale for the the coldest 3 months letting the water drop to the 50's or so. I am going to do some research on this and report back. The idea would be that if I can make a living off of the cold weather produce, The perch harvest every year and a half would be the bonus. Also, I was just reading that Talapia can reach market size 1.5lbs in 9 months. Is this true? Nine months of 75 degree water might not be to hard to maintain.

davidstcldfl
01-23-2013, 07:23 PM
What do you all know about yellow perch? I am sure they take longer to raise then talapia but I believe they are much more tolerant of the cold. What I could do is keep the water at ideal perch temps for 9 month of the year and focus on cold weather crops like spinach and Kale for the the coldest 3 months letting the water drop to the 50's or so. I am going to do some research on this and report back. The idea would be that if I can make a living off of the cold weather produce, The perch harvest every year and a half would be the bonus. Also, I was just reading that Talapia can reach market size 1.5lbs in 9 months. Is this true? Nine months of 75 degree water might not be to hard to maintain.

Dave, Please start your own new thread for this question(s). Maybe in 'BACKYARD SYSTEMS" or in "FISH...?" section.
It's not your fault... I should of said something sooner. We have almost a page and a half way off topic, from the original thread content.... :? ... :oops:

godspeed007
02-12-2013, 02:00 PM
I am a cattle rancher in Oklahoma and I have been waiting for a market to arise in order to invest in Aquafarming. My only issue tht needs to be resolved is "where do I sell my Fish". There is a very active cattle market nationwide which allows for an easy sale of livestock almost every business day. This discussion has not addressed in detail an outlet for production. The last thing I want to do is raise 10 or 20 tons of fish and have no place to sell them. That is the biggest issue with a commercial fish farm today. Quit frankly, I do not want to invest millions and raise a bunch of fish and then have to create a market for them after I did my part already. As for the commercial Fish Farms online today I would guess that they belong to pre-existing Companies in the fish wholesale market, ie; Gortons, Stoufers,ect. The gentleman that stated earlier in this discussion that a market would need to materialize is exactly right, there is no place to sell at the end of all of your investment and time. Is anyone aware of a Company in the US where you can call them for pick up or you can deliver an iced down load of fish for sale?

davidstcldfl
02-13-2013, 06:34 AM
Hi Godspeed, welcome to the forum... :)

Yours is an interesting question. I don't know of any companies off hand...?
I even did a quick search of fish processors in OK...I didn't see anything...?
You might consider contacting your local Cooperative Extension office. They may have info on processors and you might even get some contact info for others doing aquaculture in OK.


I was curious about aquaculture in OK and I found this, written by OK state U....
http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare ... 201web.pdf (http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1861/NREM-9201web.pdf)
They start right in on the realities of trying aquaculture. I don't see 'when' it was written...?
I did learn that you have paddlefish there. They mentioned about possibly raising them for their caviar. Too bad the females can take up to 10 years before laying eggs.

dancinhrblady
02-21-2013, 12:48 PM
[quote="Neil H":3ep25rvp]
I live in South Africa at the moment
What are your ideas for aquaponics? :D

was waiting for that Q

your points on a system designed for the local environment and capital available are valid

but what if we as a community designed what we think is a good commercial AP system ....... there is vast experience in this forum ... could be fun .... disclaimers would be very NB though

its a funny thing AP we think it is this new technology and a wonder method for farming and dont really want to talk about commercial plans and operations because we think it is this trump card .... so we work in isolation .... but at the end of the day the more commercial AP projects there are the better our understanding the more this will be main stream .....

discussing plans are the first port of call .....[/quote:3ep25rvp]
Actually... there's nothing new under the sun... ever hear of the 'hanging gardens of Mexico City'? They were doing AP when the first conquistadors hit... so, no. It isn't new...
However, it isn't 'western' particularly, either... i.e.; it isn't traditional. Traditional farmers can do things to increase yield the bankers understand...

There are some real commercial systems on the market right now. Why aren't there more? Money. The folks that are willing... or that have some experience, haven't been able to get funding.

For the most part, bankers think that traditional is more 'control' able... they're wrong, but they are the ones that make the decisions about the money to float a big operation. We are talking a roughly 1mil. to do an operation that would turn out 1800 lb of fish, and, say 28K produce every six weeks... and do you have an idea the square footage required... even if one uses towers for 'small' leafy greens?? You are looking at mechanics, plumbing, insurance, monitoring, licenses, packaging, transport, rent, power (even if you do renewable-- still have to do the installation...) and training personnel.

So, say, you need 1.5 mil to start, and roughly six weeks to get cycled... another six weeks to start producing greens... then 4-6 months before you have sale-able fruit or veg... and at least 8 months to have sale-able fish.

Once you are running, the pay-back would probably exceed expectations... expansion would be able to go to the roof tops, {my suggestion was to utilize empty grocery stores... they already have a separate meat section that would work for processing... loading docks, water, a/c, and the capacity to open up more 'window space' so one could avoid grow lights} and you'd be so incredibly 'low carbon' for the neighborhood you are located in...

Which brings me to my next issue-- and may actually be a part of our problem moving from small to commercial scale. We would supplant the local groceries. They may be chains, but they ain't gonna be happy about a system that supplants their carbon-heavy model. They are in place, they have clout in the community... and would not look fondly upon our endeavor.

Just my $.02.

bcotton
02-22-2013, 01:55 PM
I've heard of hanging gardens of babylon


brian

jackalope
02-23-2013, 03:19 PM
I live in South Africa at the moment

What are your ideas for aquaponics? :D

was waiting for that Q

your points on a system designed for the local environment and capital available are valid

but what if we as a community designed what we think is a good commercial AP system ....... there is vast experience in this forum ... could be fun .... disclaimers would be very NB though

its a funny thing AP we think it is this new technology and a wonder method for farming and dont really want to talk about commercial plans and operations because we think it is this trump card .... so we work in isolation .... but at the end of the day the more commercial AP projects there are the better our understanding the more this will be main stream .....

discussing plans are the first port of call .....
Actually... there's nothing new under the sun... ever hear of the 'hanging gardens of Mexico City'? They were doing AP when the first conquistadors hit... so, no. It isn't new...
However, it isn't 'western' particularly, either... i.e.; it isn't traditional. Traditional farmers can do things to increase yield the bankers understand...

There are some real commercial systems on the market right now. Why aren't there more? Money. The folks that are willing... or that have some experience, haven't been able to get funding.

For the most part, bankers think that traditional is more 'control' able... they're wrong, but they are the ones that make the decisions about the money to float a big operation. We are talking a roughly 1mil. to do an operation that would turn out 1800 lb of fish, and, say 28K produce every six weeks... and do you have an idea the square footage required... even if one uses towers for 'small' leafy greens?? You are looking at mechanics, plumbing, insurance, monitoring, licenses, packaging, transport, rent, power (even if you do renewable-- still have to do the installation...) and training personnel.

So, say, you need 1.5 mil to start, and roughly six weeks to get cycled... another six weeks to start producing greens... then 4-6 months before you have sale-able fruit or veg... and at least 8 months to have sale-able fish.

Once you are running, the pay-back would probably exceed expectations... expansion would be able to go to the roof tops, {my suggestion was to utilize empty grocery stores... they already have a separate meat section that would work for processing... loading docks, water, a/c, and the capacity to open up more 'window space' so one could avoid grow lights} and you'd be so incredibly 'low carbon' for the neighborhood you are located in...

Which brings me to my next issue-- and may actually be a part of our problem moving from small to commercial scale. We would supplant the local groceries. They may be chains, but they ain't gonna be happy about a system that supplants their carbon-heavy model. They are in place, they have clout in the community... and would not look fondly upon our endeavor.

Just my $.02.

Excellent observation and analysis :mrgreen:

In my opinion, it's always the bankers and/or the government bureaucrats that plug up everything for the little guy with their rules and regulations, so when an outfit with the big bucks decides to get into the business, he's got no competition from the many little guys that beat him to it! I know that sounds paranoid, but after 50 years of trying to get many businesses off the ground on a shoe string, I've seen a lot of my ideas gobbled up by someone else, their only advantage was the money, not the know-how, so some of them didn't survive :!: My plan is to start out small, build up the clientele, and work up from there - I'll never tell a banker or investor my ideas and plans again ;)

jackalope
02-24-2013, 12:52 PM
Here is an article about setting up a commercial fish farm and the associated costs, etc. as well as dealing with the difficulties of convincing a banker to let loose of some of the money he gets to loan out at exhorbitant interest rates. This article was written for North Dakota in 2004 and could possibly give you some guidance as you go forward in a venture ..... should that be your intent :| - so when you read the costs, expenses, and other figures, keep in mind that according to the Social Security Administration website, we who are on SS recieved no COLA's (cost of living adjustments) in 2010 and 2011 - IOW, according to the Obama Administration the cost of living did not rise between Feb 2009 and Jan 2011 :o :shock: :roll: . Even leaving those two years at a 0% increase, from 2004 to 2013 there has been a 25.6% increase in the cost of living here in the USA :!: So if you intend to start up a fish farm, be sure to take those costs of living increases in you own home area into account when you put a business plan together :!:

Farming Tilapia 01 March 2004 Clik ;) (http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/13/farming-tilapia)
History of Automatic Cost-Of-Living Adjustments Clik ;) (http://www.ssa.gov/cola/automatic-cola.htm)

15mules
07-06-2013, 01:09 PM
Ok, I have to admit, I am new to this forum and this thread is what got me to join.
This has been my question for months.
If Aqauponics is so good, then why is there no one doing it commercially. I have searched the internet for successful commercial operations, and they are few and far between?
The comments so far in this thread make a lot of sense. Lack of financial investment! But there has been large operations put in, with millions in investment capital, that have gone bankrupt? Now, I have made the same conclusions many of you have. The systems they invested in were doomed for failure, before they started in most cases, because of poorly planned systems, or poorly developed markets.
Are we really in the beginning stages of the next big thing in agriculture, AP??
Are we going to be looking back in 10 years and see the current development in AP technology as the beginnings of a farming revolution? Or are we going to look back and see this period as a passing fad in the new GREEN wishful thinking, where a few made millions selling smoke and mirrors to the many?
The point has been made that a good backyard system, is not going to be the same system as a good commercial system. This does seem somewhat correct to me, with some exceptions. The backyard "Hobby" gardener has no expectation of a ROI, in many cases, because it is a small system, he also has no concern on how efficient it is (production, electrical consumtion, building cost) Who cares it is a hobby right. Commercially, this just cannot work, all these factors matter.
The fact is all these efficiencies should matter to everyone wanting to further AP as a legitimate farming method.

My research tells me that my state University studies (Arkansas) rates aquaculture as a risky business proposal. They rate AP as an unproven business model. They rate Tilapia as a low profit fish market.
To be honest, the numbers on my paper says there is great risk in a commercial AP business. My numbers for my local market also says there is not a huge profit for a local commercial AP business. Then my other side, my American "I can do it" side kicks in and I say. Yes, But others made mistakes and I can do better.
I have had several different small businesses over the years and the same laws govern them all.
Do you have a market for the service you are offering?
What is the actual cost of the service of are offering?
Will your client pay enough for your service to leave a profit?
The biggest mistake I think people make is to err on the side of frugality. Your business WILL cost more than you think to start and you will need capital longer than you thought to run it, until a profit starts to come in.The second biggest mistake I have seen people make in a service business is not charging enough. That is right, not charging enough! Americans want the best, they want to think they are getting a premium product. A person must educate their client on why their product is worth more, even though the same product is available cheaper. You will lose some clients, but the ones you keep will be good ones. Now make no mistake, you have to provide a premium product, but in the case of AP produce I do not think that is a problem.
I attended Horseshoeing school in Oklahoma, years ago. The teacher told me, "Do not take offense" but, "You do not want to work for people like you, you want to work for people with money" I went home and charged more than others, but I provided a premium service and I had clients, but first I had to educate them on why my service was worth more. I think this is lacking in AP. AP is new and the consumer does not yet see the products as premium products because they have not been educated as to the benefits.
Remember to you AP is not Rocket Science. To you growing produce is not Rocket Science, but to the average consumer with no background in farming, it is Rocket Science. Convince them you are the best astronaut around with the best Rocket ship and you have a client. ( yes you will have to prove it, by providing them with a ride to the moon, figuratively speaking that is)
Ok, I am done with my first post, thanks for listening.

urbanfarmer
07-07-2013, 04:07 AM
15mules welcome to the fray!

The majority of new APers are learning about agriculture for the first time. Combine that with a complete misunderstanding of the business sciences, and you have a disaster waiting to happen in any attempted commercial venture. It is absolutely possible to build a successful business based off AP. You can't run before you learn to walk, at least not where I come from (A planet called Earth).

However, it is worth pointing out that any business that produces a resource by harvesting the power of the Sun should be profitable. Anyone serious enough to start a business or rely on AP for their livelihood should be willing to put in the serious effort into preparing for it.

JCO
07-28-2013, 12:52 AM
OK 15mules, somehow I missed your first post, however you have the answers to a successful commercial Aquaponics operation:-


state University studies (Arkansas) rates aquaculture as a risky business proposal. They rate AP as an unproven business model. They rate Tilapia as a low profit fish market.

AP is an unproven business model and I would say mainly because the people with the knowledge to accomplish it don't have the means $$$$$.$$ to put it into operation.

Also Tilapia are a low profit fish market. That is a complete fact. As long as China is the world's largest producer of Tilapia and as long as America allows them to ship their product (Tilapia Fillets) to our shores, no one in America will ever be able to compete with them.


I have had several different small businesses over the years and the same laws govern them all.

You and me both. In fact just like you now, I use to be a licensed firearms dealer back in the 70s LONE PINE SPORTING GOODS
Additionally, I got my first merit badge in the Boy Scouts at the age of 10. It was in leather works and I still do leather today. I have created about everything you could do with leather from shoes, purses to a full blown roping saddle with no pattern.

I have started and successfully run more than one business in the past, but when the real estate bust came, like so many, I didn't see the writing on the wall, I lost everything. Now I have no way of rebounding until I can find a vehicle (business not auto) to get me healthy again.


Do you have a market for the service you are offering?

You can jump out and start a commercial system raising whatever, tomatoes, eggplants...makes no difference. If you don't have a market for your product, you'll be feeding it to the BSF to keep it from stinking up your yard.


What is the actual cost of the service of are offering?

In getting started, you must know what it's going to cost and most of all when you build, don't build with a small operation in mind. All construction plans should be geared toward easily adding to, building on, expanding with little to no interruption of your operation. Never build a "TEST COMMERCIAL SYSTEM". A test system mean you are possibly expecting a failure and therefore, you are only going to test it.

Know your "Sh*t" and get your ducks in a row and start off with success in mind or go home.


Will your client pay enough for your service to leave a profit?

Here again we go back to marketing. This is an item you need to establish in the beginning, not after you've raised a 1,000 bushels of tomatoes etc before you decide on how much you will need to charge to make a profit and OH yes, will the market pay the price?

Remember, if your are raising food stuffs to sell to the public either directly or indirectly through grocery stores, there will be tons of red tape, hoops to jump through and continuous irritating government inspections to put up with done by people who would just as soon you would fail so they wouldn't have to actually work for their money.

Now, can it be done. The answer is quite simply "YES". When will it be done, like Atlas said, "Give me a place to stand and I can lift the world" or something like that.

In other words, give me the cash and I can show you how it's done.

Aquaponics isn't rocket science. It's the marketing of the product that is where the actual work comes in. Convincing the world that Aquaponically grown fish & veggies, raised "FREE OF ALL CHEMICALS" is far more healthy and better for you and your loved ones than organic or any other form of food farming.

Name recognition is the key:- XEROX (no longer in business but people still make Xerox copies), IBM, FORD, CHEVROLET.

Develop a Brand and promote your BRAND and "CHEMICAL FREE" grown fish and vegetables and you could be the next Campbell Soup, Heinz, Del Monte. Sorry to quote big names, but you get my gist. 8-)

WHAT TO DO???

I HAVE 46 (SOON TO BE 47) YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN AQUACULTURE, AQUAPONICS AND RAISING VEGETABLES AND OTHER PLANTS.

GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I'LL SHOW YOU HOW IT'S DONE :mrgreen:

Aloha Don
07-29-2013, 07:12 PM
Now that is motivational!!!
I'm Ready JCO......Let's go get em!!!

winger4647
09-14-2013, 06:23 PM
Okay! Where do you want to start?

over 100 views, is anyone else going to participate??

Be glad to participate, my background in heating/cooling and solar

JCO
09-15-2013, 12:09 AM
The subject ... though very viable...has pretty well run its course... MONEY TALKS AND BULLSH*T stands around wishing they were able to "TALK"..!

No Shoes, No Shirt..... NO SERVICE... :!: :mrgreen:

winger4647
09-15-2013, 07:18 AM
The subject ... though very viable...has pretty well run its course... MONEY TALKS AND BULLSH*T stands around wishing they were able to "TALK"..!

No Shoes, No Shirt..... NO SERVICE... :!: :mrgreen:

too bad, would have been interesting to see where many "heads" would take a project. Used to do that in business and usually turned out very positive. I digress!

JCO
09-15-2013, 09:28 AM
I agree and that's what I was hoping....kind of an AP "THINK TANK" with many minds, with many ideas coming together to make a project viable. :mrgreen:

winger4647
09-15-2013, 09:35 AM
I agree and that's what I was hoping....kind of an AP "THINK TANK" with many minds, with many ideas coming together to make a project viable. :mrgreen:

Reading your book right now, was surprised to see we USED to live only 40 miles or so from each other. Last house (2008) on the inter coastal in Brunswick GA., used to ride with my M/C group each week to Jacksonville for chow or some M/C event.

JCO
09-15-2013, 12:26 PM
We probably even went to different schools together..! :shock: :o :lol: So why did you move? :mrgreen:

spartan081
12-18-2013, 05:49 PM
Hi Everyone! I just found this forum and post today after doing some google searching for an efficient pump for a new AP project we are starting. After some reading, I can see that there are many experts here on the forum.

As an intro, I have been researching and doing AP in my own garden and networking with local friends that are doing the same for a few years now. We have launched a non-profit food coop that plans to grow veggies and fish aquaponically in order to share with all member of the coop. It'll be urban AP farming with each family in the coop specializing in a few crop and sharing/selling their surplus to the coop. We plan to host a weekly farmers market where coop members can share/trade/ or surplus food with each other and locals who wish to purchase high quality food free from chemicals.

At the moment we have broke ground on the construction of our AP community garden and showcase on a 30'X60' lot and would appreciate any feedback or constructive criticism.
Thanks and have a great day!

Richard

Willy
07-16-2016, 02:35 AM
Well, lets have my thoughts also here:
I am living in Thailand, the local farmer do what they do since centuries and provide a common stock to the market, everybody the same.
AP is not so far known but HP is coming up.
Deepwater grow beds are in coming and still the same Product hits the market, now no grown on soil, therefore cleaner and also more equal quality. The HP bed are covered under Roofs with nets at the side, temperature control is more the decision of the weather itself.

I have been raised up in Germany and have HP farmers over decades in my Family in Holland and Germany using Greenhouses.
Why Greenhouses? Mainly to produce a cimate that allow to grow more flexible and in a wider range.
This idea came to my head as I relocated in Thailand. Family members of my wife with worn out bones moving dirt and harvest. And then I have seen over the past 13 years here, the behaviour of the Thai consumer changes drastically. They want bio, the are changing their meals and are more open to try new introductions. AND they are willing to pay a bit more for a nice scran.
Example: I love mashed Sweedes and in Germany a 1.5 Kg root costs me 1,49 EUR/Kg.. Now I found them Imported as a 250gr Root for more than 8 EUR in Thailand's Supermarkets.
What we need is what we did in Europe. Climate control and how to archieve it? Buying a Greenhouse.
I am just beginning picking the brains as I have got from my Uncle in Law 20000sqm of infertile land after approval with a 120sqm test farm that this idea might work very well (the test farm was consuming as little as 25000EUR in 4 years). So 20000 sqm is a bit too much for the start but slowly slowly catching the monkey.
1800sqm is phase 1 and here we go.
To get it running the Greenhouse will be 300000 EUR incl AP stuff inside.
The first plan must be, Fish is just a helper to cover a few expenses but is still essential to go "Bio" so the fish has to hide under the grow beds.
Grow beds need access and acess means waste of grow space = loss of money.
Hence, you need to go vertical.
Vertical requires more energy for pumps as there will be a huge flow rate for raised deepwater grow beds.
Can the space saved catch up with the additional costs? Can the Product beeing made cheaper as to import it?
4 years in my test Greenhouse says me: YES it can.

BUT, a test field did not mean business, as the greenery starting exploding in the racks and the entire village was eating as mad just to have spacce to run further tests with other plants we fed left over (much it was to the chickens and buffalo) there was the next idea born:
What about unsold Products.. Some fishes love greens but you need to add things to it. So we bought more chicken just for the AP farm and we were running in an overstock of eggs. Then we found out eggs are a good add to the fish food so what else to mix in. You want no slimy roots and full digested food.
3 Family member were working 3 years just to create the perfect fish food and at the end we needed to buy only one single ingredient more to make it perfect. Wastemanagement done! Still no business touched.. But from nearby villages some people bought already for resale.
Here ends my story as I just start to put all learned into a bigger testfield, but this one needs to pay a bit back and sure it shall not end like the 120sqm that our buffalo rampaged one night.

I have made a thread in Commercial Aquaponics and feel I am at the begin again. Instead of one fish tank we plan now 6 recks with each 11 tanks. A new issue comes up.. Nobody of us is a plumber, so how to distribute water when you have more than 1 tank and 120sqm growbeds..
Any help is appreciated under the forum Commercial Aquaponics thread 20000sqm in Thailand.

Conclusion: If you think Big go first for space reduction, a sqm Greenhouse wasted is a sqm that costs insted of gains.. To make it profitable you want to use every squarecentimeter to make $$$$$. and that off cause without blowing more in as that comes out.

Will