So I'm going to be an uncle!!!

[NeverResting]

Alright well... it looks like my new brood stock is already mating! I've only had them in the tank about a week and I swear one already is brooding with eggs in her mouth.

I observed some behavior today and I wanted to post it so you guys can confirm this was mating.


Tank Setting:

90 Gallon Tank
8 fish (1 7-8" male long, 1 female about 6-7" long, 6 fish about 4-6" depending on the fish)
Let's refer to the 7-8" male as just "male" and the 6-7" female as "female" lol...

Alright so the sand had "nests" in it today which before it didn't. The nest was down to the bare glass like a crater.

The male was swimming with the female in these nests in the following manner. He would swim in a circle and she was swimming after him as if he was releasing sperm and she was fertilizing the eggs she had in her mouth. You definitely see the bulge under her mouth and her mouth looks full.

The other 6 fish were at the top of the aquarium hiding as the male was acting aggressively and spreading his fins to chase the others away.


Now it seems like the female is with the rest of the clan and the male is still swimming in the center of tank alone chasing most all the fish away. I am going to transfer the other 6 fish in the 55 Gallon I have so the pair can get time to themselves with no stress from the male needing to territorial.

[NeverResting]

Wanted to share some photos




*Edit* Plans are changing.. I'm not able to catch any fish out of that tank with my net. I used a bigger minnow net from fishing but the problem is my positioning. I'm on a ladder that's too short. The tank is 10 feet high in the air on a pallet rack in my warehouse lol. I need to get a taller ladder and try or just leave them alone. I'm worried about spooking her too much and causing complications.

[bcotton]

yeah man, that's what it is.. but in 10ish days when she spits those fry out they are gonna get eat up by the other fish in the tank. smorgasbord. tilapia are very cannibalistic...

You are going to have trouble moving her as she will probably spit out the eggs and/or swallow them. I have read the mother will pick the dropped eggs back up but i have never seen this happen in my tanks.

some of the fry will elude immediate death, make sure you have a dip net on hand and a spare bucket or other container.. that size fish will probably have 300-500 fry and i think it's a reasonable goal to save 30-50 fry.

If you are interested in higher survival rates you should search this forum for badflash's egg tumbler and start experimenting with egg harvesting. My first attempt was very bad, like 3% survival rate but by the end of the summer i was harvesting 200-300 eggs and hatching 90-95% of the eggs.

brian

brian

[NeverResting]

Hey Brian,

Thanks I'm going to get another ladder up and try to move the others again soon. Or possibly just move her to her own little tank. Will she be cannibalistic to her own fry or just the other fish?

Thanks!

Walter

[davidstcldfl]

Hi NeverResting, You could make a simple floating cage out of pvc and some mesh. This would give the fry a place to escape from the adults. To better the results, toss in a little duck weed. By instinct, they should head for it, to hide in.
The parts shouldn't cost much. For the 'floats'.... 'pool noodles' work well. A few tye wraps to hold the mesh to the pvc.

You may already know about aquatic Eco-systems (?)...they are in south Apopka. Near the intersection of OBT/192 and Maitland blvd.

You could use some mesh like this...
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories ... al-Netting (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1331/Trical-Netting)

Here's the fittings to make cage corners..
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories ... ings-3-Way (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1926/PVC-Cage-Fittings-3-Way)


She doesn't eat while holding the eggs...then for a 'short period' she's not eating while she's holding fry. Then they start to look pretty tasty... :evil:

Bcotton made a good point, when you catch her, most likely she will spit out the eggs. If you get them and her in a seperate tank, she 'might' pick them up, at least some of them.
Good luck...keep us posted.

[bcotton]

yeah i forgot about the flolating cage option since i decided not to use it in the past.. that's a very viable option.

I woudlnt try to move the female she will spit out and sallow most or all of the eggs. I wouldnt try to handle her unless you are trying to get the eggs from her.

Moving the other fish from the tank is an option.


yes, she wont immediately start eating the fry but that wears off. She will have not eaten in almost 2 weeks.

brian

[davidstcldfl]

Since getting to the tank, was an issue, I thought tossing in the cage would be a little easier.. :)

For the netting...I used some shade cloth that had openings big enough for the fry to get through.

[NeverResting]

Well I took your advice Brian and did some egg tumbler research (a good 10 minutes worth LOL) and luckily my home depot is 5 minutes down the road from the shop.

Got $20 worth of 1 1/4" couplings, 90 degree elbows, fiberglass screen, and fluorescent light bulb tube. Enough to make 5-6 tumblers with a ton of material to spare.

I made 1. Got the bigger ladder. Got on top of the pallet rack to make it easier since I wouldn't have to stand on a ladder. Caught her and held her in a bucket with tank water 1/4 full. I rocked her back and forth gently to make water flow in and out of her mouth while I held it open to release the eggs. Got a lot but I was thinking there would be more. Put them in the incubator (super easy to make not the one badflash made.. that one is much better than mine).

I noticed another small one looked like she was brooding. So caught her and she released while in the net and some were in the tank. I scooped her and the embryos up... I had no idea I had two brooding. The smaller one had embryos already so they hatched and were wiggling around. Put them in the incubator to. I think they need a couple days still in the incubator until they start freely swimming right?

*edit* Now that I looked at the big mama again.. her mouth is still puffed up.. she probably had more I didn't get all at the first time.
*edit again!* I counted 480 eggs in the photo.. why did my brain look at it and say ahhh that's probably 100 eggs???


Both incubators are on super gentle settings.

Sorry about the poor video with the one with the eggs. The incubator with the embryos has a lot better view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZOYK-qRpGw&feature=g-upl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80TvH2lfU0k

[davidstcldfl]

Nice... 8-)

The links to youtube wouldn't work for me.... :(

[NeverResting]

Sorry changed them from private to unlisted. Now you can view them.

How do I embed the videos here?

[davidstcldfl]

Sorry changed them from private to unlisted. Now you can view them.

How do I embed the videos here?

I'm no expert, but I tried to embed your videos too...no luck... :?
Maybe Urban Farmer can get it to work.. :geek:

Do you have a link to the 'build video' you used ?

[bcotton]

hah, that's very similar to the materials i use... fiberglass screen and a florecent light bulb tube.. 1 1/4 inch pvc fittings... It is manadatory to be able to manage your air bubbler flow to get a little agitation but not so violent that eggs get swooped out of the tumbler before the fry are ready to swim out. your fry already have tails so they will move a little but they cant breathe on their own yet.

I started with the air stone coming in the top like you. But i found keeping the height to be unreliable.

In version two i stuck the air stone through the light bulb tube and got better results but the side pressure off the rigid tubing on my weak base caused the tumbler to try to fall over... I still had good success.. I will try to redisign it to stand up on it's own next summer when i start up again.


brian

[bcotton]

oops.. i hit submit instead of add file.. meant to show you the progression of my egg tumbler design... again... same as you and not too bad in cost.. you end up with a lot of leftover materials which lets you build more and experiment with different designs.

brian

[David - WI]

On youtube, try clicking "share" and then "options" below that... and check the "long link" box. Then copy that link into the [youtube] [\youtube] space on here.


[youtube:14a6ven7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZOYK-qRpGw[/youtube:14a6ven7]

[youtube:14a6ven7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80TvH2lfU0k[/youtube:14a6ven7]

[NeverResting]

Sweet thank you David!

The incubator has two sections. The one that the air stone is in and the one below it separated by a screen. Problem is the screen in the middle is getting a little clogged by particles in the water and I had to adjust the air stone lower today to make it tumble well again. I don't like the design much.

I think I'm going to do more something like a Mcdonald Jar style incubator now that I did my research more thoroughly. Pump filtered clean water from the tank into 2L bottle or similar with the top overflowing. The 2L has the water flowing into the bottom via a rigid tube that is centered so all the eggs should tumble all around it. The overflow should be able to allow fry that are free swimming to swim up to the top and go to the next container when ready. I figured I'd have the overflow falling into a fry mesh that's placed in the main tank. That way the fry are contained and later transported to 10 gallon tanks for easy feeding.

My eggs that I got yesterday have tails today so it's a good sign that they're alive. I was worried about the ones with tails from yesterday this morning as the flow was so gentle I think so died. But hey if I get over 50% survival rate on my first attempt I consider that a succcess.

Here's a great video that everyone should watch!

[youtube:1tqn83hk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a13dNHcNqaw[/youtube:1tqn83hk]

[bcotton]

your flow looked good in the videos.. It's also possible some were killed when handling. In my small sample size i feel like the eggs are more durable than the fish that are starting to develop.

brian

[NeverResting]

I did a lot of work on the system today. Added a 100 gallon rubber maid stock tank to replace the 30-40galln pond insert. I raised the grow bed a good foot to change the overflow from siphon to an actual bulkhead. So no more chance of it overflowing.

I also got another batch of eggs from the big mama. More than before.. Is it possible that it's a fresh batch? It was more than the batch 2 days ago and that one was 480 eggs that now have tails. These didn't have tails. I added 3 corner filters to help filtration and a linear air pump with 12 valve manifold. Got a deal on it used. It blows more air than I thought. It has 12 hooked up and valued down cuz the bubbling was insane. It's a 77 watt version or something like that.

I think I will get the 300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank to put my breeders in. The big male is chasing everyone all day it seems in the 90 gallon. I figure I can just pull all out weekly to check for eggs. Any thoughts on that idea? It's only 8 fish so should be not to long of a process. The tank would give more water quality stability and allow for room to incorporate the overflow 2l bottle McDonald jar style hatchery idea.

[bcotton]

From the picture your momma looks about maybe half a lb.. based on my experience i would expect her to top out at 500-600 eggs right now. So it would have to be a new batch. Are you certain it's the same female? Usually they need to feed for a bit to store up enough energy to brood for a week.

Something on the topic.. The earlier you harvest the eggs to quicker they will start again. typically there's still a week between broods. If you let the mom care for the broodlings full term it's usually a monthish before she goes again.


brian

[NeverResting]

Well there's only 1 bigger mama the rest are smaller so she's easy to spot.. I'm almost certain it was her but hey I thought the first batch of eggs were around 150-200.. So your mind and eyes can perceive things differently.. Tuesday I harvested 480 from her and I swear this has to be a good 600+ since its more than before. I took the photo of the eggs in the container opened it on my computer and used paint program to mark them as it got counted. I didn't do that with yesterday's batch.

Any feedback on Using the 300 gallon stock tank as a breeding tank?

I hope these fry turn to some marketable fingerlings so I can help fund my project. I need thousands of dollars in lights and there's electricty which this can help offset.

[bcotton]

I am having a thought collision cause your question kind of spawns a few directions of thinking so bear with me here...

When i think of a breeding tank i think of 1 male and 3-6 females only.

the 300 gallon stock tank is fine.. I dont think 90 is too small, either... especially for fish of your size. Over the years they may outgrow the 90 gallons but we are talking 2-3 years down the line.... the aggressive behavior of the male is all part of the natural course of things.... With that said... The fish *WILL* kill each other if there's not enough room for the females to get away and hide... so it's up to you and your observations. Adding parts of PVC and or clay pots helps with line of site and helps break up your tank to allow for "safe" areas

I had a 300 gallon system with 30 tilapia, 20 catfish and a couple dozen perch... i experimented with a separate breeding tank but since my tank was not densely stocked there was lots of breeding in my system tank. So i ended up just watching the tank for brooding mothers when i wanted more fry.. otherwise the fry population was regulated by the perch.

The 300 gallon tank did not stop the aggressive behavior because there was room for 3-4 males to stake out nests... they would turn red faced and chase off any fish that hovered near their area.. and sometimes silly little standoffs would happen between two nesting males.

Like most things theres no tried and true right or wrong.. just different...

you should check your local regulations before selling tilapia. In Texas i would need a aquaculture permit to sell Mozambique and an exotic species permit for the other non-banned types. by the letter of the law its probably not ok for me to give them away.

brian

[NeverResting]

Hey Brian,

Your post taught me something. My PVC holes are on the outer edges of the tank so there's no breaks of territory. I think ill make a more divided tank setup for them. I'll move the pipes into the center more. I still don't have a flower pot in there because I didn't have on hand but I have 4 inch drain Y and T adapters in there.

I am actually going to fill out the form today. I found it on the Florida website a couple weeks ago. I do want to be legal in all my ventures. My fish are at my warehouse which is a business location so I'm sure it'll be easy for a permit to be issued for the sale and also the conditional exotic species permit. I do it in my warehouse because I just had room and figured why not use it for fish and growing veggies :-)

If things progress properly I might convert the entire warehouse to a commercial aquaponics establishment but that's far in the future if at all.

[NeverResting]

[youtube:5g0u1mai]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoFvbJyOz8g[/youtube:5g0u1mai]

The 2nd collected batch that had tails are mostly free swimming today but I'm still leaving them in the incubator on low overnight.

[youtube:5g0u1mai]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv8BxWPyD3I[/youtube:5g0u1mai]

These were harvested on 12/05/12 also as eggs, tails appeared 12/06/12, and today they are barely swimming. This is batch #1 that had 480 eggs.




Those incubators are not low maintenance in my tank since my water quality sucks. I needed to remove the fry/eggs and clean the screens today on the incubators that ran for 48hrs already. I will be redesigning the incubators or at least their placement soon. My big 90 gallon tank has poor solids removal. I need to redesign the pickups lower.







I'm also working on getting a row of 5 20 gallon tanks setup this weekend. I'm going to drill them all and install bulkheads. They will be in a line with 4 holding tanks and 1 sump tank. I siliconed the tank today arcylic plastic clear dividers from Home Depot today. That filter will have a drop for the solids, a polyester fiber portion for smaller solids removal, and a SeaChem Matrix section for maximing biological area. The 4 20 gallon tanks will have 1" bulkheads which will gravity feed the sump tank. I'll start the fry that are free swimming from batch 2 in a 10 gallon tank tomorrow. I have fresh brine shrimp hatching every 2 days at my shop and I also have a 5lb bag of Aquamax fry powder en route. In a couple days I'll transfer the fry to the 1st 20 gallon tank once the setup is complete. My 1st bigger batch should be free swimming in 3-4 days so it'll be a perfect time to put them in a 20 gallon tank when it's done.

[NeverResting]

[youtube:3mckc8fw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTBnIqBX3-Y[/youtube:3mckc8fw]

Got a new video up. I transferred the fry that were free swimming to a 10 gallon. They still had small yolk sacs but I gave them some brine shrimp. They didn't eat it but about 5 hours later when I was leaving I fed them again and they ate. I came back tonight to see how they are all doing and they were all on the bottom with big bellies lol. I think they are heavy from eating the shrimp and couldn't swim easily. I might be wrong, but they were all at the bottom of the tank.


I made a new incubator today that's the mcdonald jar version. It's a 2L soda bottle with a tube going to the bottom gently flowing on the eggs. I found that I had the best movement, moving it to the side a little that's why it looks off. In the center eggs were going down to the bottom where the bottle's neck is and I didn't like that. Having the flow directed a bit to the side kept the eggs all gently out of the bottle neck. I'm sure revisions will come.

The reason I made the new incubator is because I came in today and batch #1 with 480 harvested eggs had about 80% dead today. The screens were clogged with dead fish. So I don't know if the bubbler was too high and killed them or what. The new system is delicate and can't get clogged so the flow will always be consistent.


Ammonia and Nitrite levels are doing well with ammonia at .5ppm and nitrite dropping to 2-3ppm from 5+ a week ago. The problem I'm having is a water clarity issue. So I'm going to build a 55 gallon sand filter next week. I hope that will help scrub the water a little.

I started a new batch of lettuce in addition to this one. I still need to transplant this one but I haven't hung the lights back up. I have so much to do and so little time!

[bcotton]

They looks good. I have never had significant issue with the screen clogging but my hatch tanks are not a part of my bigger system. I usually need to clean the screens between batches. I am surprised they are big enough to eat brine shrimp but that all sounds good. I usually just crush up normal feed and i drop in an algae wafer from time to time.

Are you adding the sand filter because you dont have room for more grow beds?

brian

[NeverResting]

Hey Brian,

I don't have any media grow beds just the DWC which currently the lights are dismantled. That's probably my problem. I haven't added a sand filter. I decided to add a swirl filter instead. I haven't been at the warehouse today so I'm curious if it's collected a bunch of waste since I installed it yesterday. I need to get my grow lights setup again. I raised my grow bed last week and had to take the hangers down. My poor lettuce has been indoor with minimal skylights for 5-6 days now.

[NeverResting]

I gathered eggs from two females again. Can someone tell me if the different colors of eggs is normal? One female had one color and the other had another color egg.

Thanks everyone!

[bcotton]

Yes,

eggs are typically more white at first and then turn brown as they age... if they dont turn brown they are probably dead.

It's unusual for eggs from the same female being at different stages of development so all of the eggs from one female should be the same color.. you said that you collected eggs from two fish so looks good.

brian.



brian