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crosshairs
10-20-2012, 08:56 AM
Hello,

Been reading the forums in tandem with my first real aquaponics experiment. First time posting.

I've had unimpressive results thus far and I hope I can get some recommendations. Here are some specs for the system:

Size: ~45 gallons (tank is 55 gallons, but the grow beds aren't that big so I don't fill it all the way)
Grow bed medium: Hydroton
Circulation: I have two pumps continuously pumping water into each grow bed respectively. Each grow bed has a loop siphon. Fully fills up and drains every 10 minutes or so. Note that the water comes up to within an inch or so of the surface of the hydroton. Maybe this should be lower, but I wanted to expose as much of the hydroton to the water as possible since the hydroton is only about 8 inches deep.
Fish: 5 wild caught Bluegill from a nearby lake (Well..., 2 are pure bluegill, 3 are warmouths or some other lepomis variant).
Age of the system: ~4 months
PH: Consistently between 6.8 and 7.2
Ammonia and Nitrite: Consistently at ~0
Nitrate: Consistently high (between 40 and 80ppm, more on this later)
Plants: Bush beans, snap peas, peppers, chives, lettuce, carrots
Lighting: Each grow bed has a fixture holding two 24" F20 20 watt 6500K daylight flourescents. The grow beds are also just inside south-facing windows that get a decent amount of sunlight.
Aeration: There is an aerator within the tank constantly making bubbles. I also have the loop siphons situated so that they produce lots of bubbles when they drain.
Minerals: When I need to buffer against low pH, I add a limestone supplement containing calcium and magnesium, among other minerals.

That pretty much describes it. So here is the list of issues I'm having:

I have a mite problem (looks like two-spotted mites to me, though I'm not sure). They came onto the scene about a month ago and decimated my beans and peas. I have had to uproot many of my plants owing to them. Currently I manage the problem by manually inspecting the underside of every bean and pea leaf, and smashing the mites I can see. This keeps them at a manageable level, but it is time consuming and if I don't repeat at least once a day, they get out of control and kill leaves. From what I've read online, they can be controlled by introducing other types of mites that eat them. The wife and I are hesitant to intentionally introduce something called a spider mite into our kitchen, which is where the grow bed is. Has anyone else had problems with these guys? Any successful techniques to get rid of them?
Even before the problem with the mites, the system got fusarium wilt or something similar, which is still present and affects the peas. I've seen it in non-aquaponic gardens before, and it works exactly the same way here - the plant slowly dies from the base of the stem up. The peas typically are able to produce a pod or two before ultimately succumbing. I suppose the solution is to look for disease-resistant seeds, but just wanted to bring this up in case anyone has other suggestions.
Even apart from the mite and fusarium problems, the growth rate has not been impressive. The beans typically have had the best growth rates, but even before they mites took over they were only growing about as fast as beans do in regular settings. The lettuce you see in the pictures below is at least 6 weeks old (several are much older), and just doesn't seem to want to grow. Same with my pepper.
Nitrate levels are consistently too high. Probably because there's not much plant life, but even when the legumes were growing decently well the nitrate was way too high. I read elsewhere that, even though legumes are nitrogen fixers, that they still take up plenty of nitrate when in an aquaponics system. Hopefully I was not misled.
The bluegill will not pellet train. They're wild fish and several are fairly old, but even the smaller ones won't eat the pellets. I've been feeding them very sparsely for the past month or so, and I'm frankly surprised that none have starved to death yet. The bluegill are trained to know that I provide food and any pellets I drop in the tank go right into their mouths, but then they spit it out once they realize what it is. Per instructions I've read, I have soaked the pellets before dropping them in, to no avail.

Also, as you could probably surmise from the pics, I do have some algae growup in one of the tubes entering the grow beds, and on the walls of the grow beds facing the window. I believe I could get rid of it pretty easily by covering the wall so that sunlight doesn't get in. I haven't done this because I want the algae to consume nitrogen and hopefully lower the nitrite levels, and because I know the tank is plenty aerated.

Here are the pics of the system. I have more pics and can post them on request.

bsfman
10-20-2012, 09:09 AM
The bluegill will not pellet train. They're wild fish and several are fairly old, but even the smaller ones won't eat the pellets. I've been feeding them very sparsely for the past month or so, and I'm frankly surprised that none have starved to death yet. The bluegill are trained to know that I provide food and any pellets I drop in the tank go right into their mouths, but then they spit it out once they realize what it is. Per instructions I've read, I have soaked the pellets before dropping them in, to no avail.


I had the same problem with wild caught sunfish Crosshairs. They never would eat pelletized food and most of them starved. The only suggestion i can offer is to try live foods like feeder guppies, mosquito larvae, earthworms, insects, etc. You might also try very small chunks of cheese or biscuit dough, or maybe even tiny bits of meat like hot dogs or hamburger.

40 to 80 ppm nitrate is not too high. The fish should be okay at that level.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your system! :)

urbanfarmer
10-20-2012, 10:29 AM
My first guess was disease or even pests, but then I read your post and you already knew that! :-) As bsfman said, the nitrate levels are not "too high" as these levels are perfectly fine for the plants and fish. On another note, keep in mind the test kit you use has very low accuracy and questionable precision when testing the nitrate levels. In other words, when you get a reading of 40 it is only because you can tell the color is more than 20 and less than 80. You don't have any other options for nitrate; so, it could potentially be 20, 30, 60, 70 or whatever ppm because the kit you use isn't intended to be accurate. It's useful because we know that you do have nitrate and that it's not 400 ppm or something insane. Anyway, nitrate is fine.

Regarding the disease, there is nothing I know of you can do to "remove" it from the system. I have had this problem myself in a soil bed. You have to let the plant grow fast enough to out pace the disease or get resistant varieties. Also, you could grow something else. Alternatively, you could sacrifice one of your plants to science and cut a stem lengthwise to see if you see this to confirm the wilt disease (the brown near the outer walls of the stem are what would indicate the disease):

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getScreenImage&oid=12226164


Ladybugs eat spider mites. Perhaps that would be a more aesthetically pleasing beneficial bug? Ladybugs can fly though.

One more observation. It appears the plants are not getting enough light. The lettuce seedlings clearly show stretching and the general color and growth of your plants could also indicate this, but it's hard to say for sure because of the disease and pests affecting the plants. Plant leaves will die off if they do not acquire adequate light. Basically, the plant requires the leaf to produce enough energy (sugar) to pay for itself. If it doesn't, it's off with its head! This is JUST a thought and a little more than speculation because that pepper plant needs a lot of light and I don't see it suffering the same way as the lettuce. Also, different "heights" in your plant area receive different light levels as the lower leaf areas will almost always receive less light than the top of the plants leaf area.

When my sugar snap peas were struck with disease they still produces dozens of pods before they disease caught up to them, but they also reached a height of over 6 feet on a trellis outdoors during the spring season.

urbanfarmer
10-20-2012, 12:20 PM
Also, if you want some light reading take a look at these... maybe they will help you:

Diseases in Florida Vegetable Garden Beans: Bush, Lima, Pole, Wax, Southern Peas, English Peas, and Snow Peas
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pp132

PP249: Guidelines for Identification and Management of Plant Disease Problems: Part II. Diagnosing Plant Diseases Caused by Fungi, Bacteria and Viruses
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/mg442

bcotton
10-20-2012, 02:02 PM
i had a spider mite problem in my indoor beds and i was beaten by it. Now these beds are outside and the problem is still not entirely gone. They contuinue to lay eggs that every year seem to hatch and kill some plants before the predatory insect move in an annihilate the problem.

some thing that i did that i feel like helped...
Mites like the bottom sides of leaves because they do not like sunlight.. They also do not like water... late at night or early in the morning i would spray the leaves with water. The mites are more active and more likely to be knocked off the plants by the water.
I also tried applying diluted rubbing alcohol with the same method to try and kill the mites instead of just knocking them off the plant. This seemed to help a little too with the numbers... but they lay eggs and in a few weeks they are at it again. Was never able to completely managed the problem.

I have raised blue gill and currently have a few dozen in my tanks that eat fish food fine. They are from a farm and not wild but you should be able to feed train them. They all have to learn sometime! My question to you is what % protein is your feed and do you know what it is made out of.. Blue gill are carnivores and a 33% omnivore feed is probably going to taste inedible to them. Try to find a feed that is 40% protein made out of fish meal, etc. You may have to keep them alive with things you buy at the pet store while you work on getting them to eat what you want. petco/petsmart in my area has red wigglers, live (sometimes you have to ask for it because it's not always in the little display fridge.). It's an expensive long term solution but you dont have many fish so it seems like a viable short term solution for you. Also see if they will eat beef heart. Once you have them eating the beef heart (which should be immediately) you can go back to soaking your commercial pellets with the beef heart to soak up some of the smell and flavor... eventually stop using beef heart... then eventually stop soaking. That would be my strategy, easier said than done

I am doing this with 10 red ear sunfish that are notorious for being impossible to feed train. I can get them to eat red wiggles, superworms. they arent keen on the beef heart because it doesnt move but usually once it sits there a while they will give it a taste. Everything i have leanred in fish keeping tells me not to leave food in for longer than 15 minutes but sometimes i have to leave things in there over night for them to get hungry enough and in the right mood to try new things.

I feel like the blind leading the blind because i have not yet successfully feed trained my red ears, so take that fwiw... blue gill should be easier.

brian

Sequoia
10-21-2012, 07:39 AM
I have an indoor system, also using a 55 gallon tank and an 8 inch deep growbed. I've had great growth wit herbs, lettuce, spinach, peppers, and carrots. I don't think you have enough light. I have 4 48" T8s and 4 48" T5's on my grow bed. Not sure that 4 24" bulbs per gb will suffice.

crosshairs
10-21-2012, 10:30 AM
Thanks to all for the responses. It sounds like I need to do the following:

Regarding Fusarium Wilt and Mites, move away from growing peas and beans. The latter affects both, the former affects the peas, but neither have been observed on other plants in the system. Can anyone confirm that the mites will indeed leave the other plants (lettuce, chives, carrots, etc...) alone?

Regarding slow growth in general, get some more lighting. I'll plan to set up 4 lights over each bed, consisting of 48" Daylight T8s or T5s per Sequoia's suggestion.

Regarding picky sunfish, my current pellets are 36% protein and 6% crude fat, with fish meal as the first listed ingredient (and stuff like whole wheat following). I'll look into pellets with even more protein, and the suggested beef heart supplement. On this topic though my wife found out something interesting last night. She dropped in some of the flake-food for her beta fish, and several of the bluegills love it. Haven't done any research to see if it contains adequate nutrition, but at least they're eating something manufactured.

Regarding nitrate, my levels are apparently normal, which is great to hear! Sorry for the false alarm on that one.

urbanfarmer
10-22-2012, 01:03 AM
There are different species of both mites and the fungi that have adapted to attack different plant hosts. Also, they may not ONLY attack 1 host. If they don't have an adequate food source they may attack less likely hosts.

The fungal pathogen Fusarium oxysporum affects a wide variety of hosts of any age. Tomato, tobacco, legumes, cucurbits, sweet potatoes and banana are a few of the most susceptible plants, but it will also infect other herbaceous plants.

Mites can attack a wide range of host plants as well.

I can only think of a few options. Build a new system without introducing pests or disease. Try to clean your existing system somehow, but that would involve chemicals and that won't work. Lastly, you can try introducing beneficial bugs that will eat the mites and choosing resistant varieties of beans OR simply grow something else as you suggest. Also, the mites may help spread the fusarium wilt and other diseases. This is analogous to how mosquitoes spread disease in humans or fleas in animals.

keith_r
10-22-2012, 06:27 AM
it's not to hard to pellet train bg.. start by hydrating some in a bag, i used a ziplock bag, put about a cup of pellets in, then maybe a quarter cup of water so that all the pellets get wet, and put it in the fridge..
turn the bag over every now and then..
when you go to feed, lightly squeeze a few pellets in your hand, this will make them sink... if you squeeze to hard they'll go right to the bottom.. you want a slow sink..
at first, mine would eat then spit them out, but after a couple days they were eating the sinking food.. then i started adding a little dry with the wet.. after a couple weeks, i was just using the dry feed with no problems..

i see some white crystals on your hydroton, have you salted your system? or added any aquarium products?

crosshairs
10-22-2012, 10:02 AM
The system has been mildly salted, but those crystals actually predate any salting I've done. I'm not sure what they come from and would love some insight if anyone has any.

One thought - my underwater pumps use hose-clamps. Could having anything metallic within the aquarium cause problems?

Another thought - the limestone additive I've used is sometimes applied directly to the growbeds (dissolved in water, of course). Maybe that's what it is?

bcotton
10-22-2012, 11:05 AM
Thanks keith. I have been hydrating my pellets for the red ears but they were still taking a long time to sink. I am going to try squeezing... getting the red ear to eat at the surface will be a secondary challenge.

brian

keith_r
10-22-2012, 01:01 PM
you might need to add a little more water.. and don't forget to give them a light squeeze..
after they were on dry pellets i would throw in some crickets at the same time i was feeding (with the pellets)

crosshairs
11-01-2012, 10:52 AM
Okay, so I've been on the hunt for new grow lights, since a lack of lighting was cited as one of the problems with my system. I was told to look into T5 or T8 48" lights over each grow bed, with 4 bulbs in each.

I don't think those dimensions will work for me since each of my grow beds is slightly less than 3 feet long, so 48 inch fixtures are way too big. I figure 36 inches should be fine, but I've had a lot of trouble finding 6500K 36" T5s/T8s, and even more trouble finding the 4-bulb fixtures for them. Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace Hardware don't seem to carry them, and the few other places that carry them have really high prices (aquarium stores and such).

Any suggestions on sites/stores to look at?

David - WI
11-01-2012, 11:35 AM
Why are you worried about having 6" of extra light fixture hanging over each end of the growbed? That's probably about what you need to get "even" lighting out to the ends of the growbeds.

I just checked a 4 bulb T-5 fixture with my Apogee light meter... there is about 1/3 as much light directly under the "end" of the fixture as there is 6" in from the end (the end of the fixture & the ends of the bulbs block rather than emit light).

bcotton
11-01-2012, 12:06 PM
this is when badflash chimes in and tells you to not spend 300$ on fancy hydroponics t5 fixture when you can buy a $10 shop light and put a daylight bulb in it.


ref: growlights (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?1055-Grow-Lights)

I have stolen a lot of good advice from this forum but this is a top 5. You can tell from my first grow thread that i used 4 bulb t5's... i loved them.. they were great.. but i sold them on craigslist and bought my 10$ chop light and i have no complaints.

brian

Roger R.
11-04-2012, 06:53 AM
You could make a custom grow light to fit the size of your grow bed. Mine is 18"x24" made with four 6500K CFLs. I probably have about $20 in the whole thing including the bulbs. It seems to be working.
The plywood, foil faced insulation and rope I had on hand. Wired it with an extension chord.
Plywood sides for the "shade" would work too and just paint the inside white.
http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg532/rlr43/Aquaponics%20test/DSC00905800x561.jpg
http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg532/rlr43/Aquaponics%20test/DSC00906800x600.jpg
http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg532/rlr43/Aquaponics%20test/DSC00907800x600.jpg
http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg532/rlr43/Aquaponics%20test/DSC00954800x600.jpg

I've since add a little iron to the system and all that lettuce has greened up nicely.

crosshairs
11-05-2012, 06:01 PM
@Roger R., that is an intriguing setup. I could probably do something similar running 3 sets of bulbs (6 total) over my grow beds.

I don't have foil-faced insulation, but it looks like regular aluminum foil adhered to cardboard would accomplish the same thing. Does that sound right to you?

Roger R.
11-05-2012, 07:53 PM
@Roger R., that is an intriguing setup. I could probably do something similar running 3 sets of bulbs (6 total) over my grow beds.

I don't have foil-faced insulation, but it looks like regular aluminum foil adhered to cardboard would accomplish the same thing. Does that sound right to you?

That should work. I happened to have the insulation left over from insulating a bathroom vent duct in my attic so I used it. The top piece is 1/4" plywood with some aluminum foil glued to it and then the insulation skirt. The plastic electrical boxes are the kind used for remodeling with the ears that clamp on. The keyless fixtures inside are plastic as well so it keeps the overall weight down. I was going to buy some chain to hang it then I saw the nylon rope hanging in the garage.

Mine works out to about 2100 lumens per square foot. I read somewhere on the web that you need at least 2000 lumens per sq. ft. It must be about right, the plants seem happy so far. I have it on a timer to be on 14 hours a day.