How Would You Heat 5000 Gallons?

[urbanfarmer]

How would you economically heat 5000 gallons to survive a mild winter? Let's hear it!

[davidstcldfl]

I'd look at preventative measures first. At Sahib's research farm, we insulated the fish tanks and have covers made, and on hand, to cover the tanks when we know it'll get cold.

This past weekend, we were in the low 40's here in central FL at night. The raft systems just had their FT covers on all weekend. The systems that are media bed / tower based, I also set timers, so they only ran during the warmest part of the day.
(low 50's)

When I checked Mon morn, they were all in the 62 - 64 range with 'no heat' added.
The smaller system is around 600 gallon , the larger ones are > 2,500 gallons.

Like you said....this is just for 'mild' winter weather....not like last year when it was below freezing every night for over a week... :? :roll:

[Eleven11]

My first thought is to get a 240 Volt/4500 watt hot water tank heating element and build a heater.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_26373-135-69104 ... facetInfo= (http://www.lowes.com/pd_26373-135-6910473_0__?productId=3133517&Ntt=heater+element&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dheater%2Belement&facetInfo=)

Is it an in-ground tank?

Heat it to what temperature?

Is it insulated already?

Second, I would augment with solar collector or rocket mass heater with a heat exchanger.

[Bioritize]

How about building a solar water heater with a heat exchanger in the tanks? You can find good plans online for easy DIY systems.

[foodchain]

Too many variables yet. How many degrees you need to heat it up too? My winters are a lot different here in TX than my wife's family in Central NY, and their's are different than my family in the Northwest.....

[urbanfarmer]

Keep 'em coming! :-)

[bsfman]

How would you economically heat 5000 gallons to survive a mild winter? Let's hear it!

In Florida, you will probably only have to heat at night and then, just on the coldest nights. Try submerging a stainless steel tubular manifold in a metal 55 gallon drum filled with water. Recirculate the pond or tank water through it and heat the drum water with natural gas (cheapest) or propane, or any other combustible source at your disposal.

Alternatively, enclose the tank in a hoop style greenhouse. The sun will warm the water during the day and the trapped humidity and thermal mass will diminish cooling at night.

I've used both techniques on two of my systems with good results. Granted, my systems are much smaller than the 5,000 gallons you mention, but it's just a matter of scale. The greenhouse thing would work even better with a larger system. I have a 750 gallon system enclosed in a greenhouse tent and the lowest water temp it has reached even on several nights in the mid to low 30's was 55F.

[keith_r]

up here, i haven't seen a mild winter like this one in quite a while, but we still get cold..
the only way in our climate would be to heat the building that the tank is in.. big al (who hasn't been around in quite a while) had a double wall hoop house and burned, i think biodeisel, with pvc manifolds to pipe the hotwater through the ft's.. i think the lowest temps he saw were in the 40's..
in fl? i'd insulate the hell our of everything, gb's, sump, ft and cover the ft with plexi backed with foam with a hatch of some sort.. i'd even think about putting 1/2" foam board over the top of my gb's and cut holes for plants
i think adding air in a system that's "tight" would be imperative and this could also be a way to bring some warmth into the ft if you can put the air pump in a warmer area, or use a small heater in a small enclosed space (with appropriate ventilation) to preheat the air before going into the ft..

[commander]

Bury it!, grow beds in a greenhouse/grow house. Seems to me the greatest heat loss is from the grow beds anyway.

[foodchain]

Wouldn't the above options keep the tanks in total darkness?
Some fish don't need a light cycle to survive, but mine sure do appreciate it.

[keith_r]

i've read some studies on yp that recorded best growth with a 14 hour day

[foodchain]

I don't know...like for sure. I don't have any magic data for UF to go through or anything like that. But generally speaking mine seem to do a lot better with light. That, and I like to seem them. Can't see them in the dark, and they don't like flashlights on them.

[Bioritize]

How about a rocket mass heater? You could use some sort of thermo siphon device that wouldn't need a pump. Wrap some coil around the pipes in the ground or above and then put a stainless exchanger in the tank. Or better yet, dig the tank in the ground a bit and then run the mass heater around or below the tank. This would heat up the ground as well and would likely keep a more constant temperature.

[keith_r]

how about a couple of waterbed heating pads under the tank... i was thinking of doing this for redclaw..

[bcotton]

I havent really put building cost and BTU's to paper but i daydream about a design using large diameter cement pipes under my (future) greenhouse to use as a sump, to catch/store rainwater and attempt to provide more stable temperatures in my greenhouse system. I would use large amounts of water and the ground to store heat, which should help keep the water a little cooler during hot texas summers and warm enough during our relatively mild winters.

Obviously i would need to seel the pipes from leeching with something that is probably expensive. Hopefully i would only need to do this once.

My idea would end up being a lot more water to fish/grow bed than typically used in most systems. I expect the nutrients to be very diluted at first, but figure it will catch up over time. Once the nutrient levels of the water catch up, I will just need to keep the fish, bacteria and plants balanced.


thoughts?

brian

[foodchain]

Brian, I am breaking ground this week doing this with IBC's in the ground. Gutters drain to IBC in the ground with a hydro popout if ever too full. Will know this summer if it works. If not, just another PIA project that dudded.

[davidstcldfl]

One problem to think about here in central FL is....
In regards to heating the surounding ground, as in Bioritize's idea (which sounds like a great idea for much colder areas).

By time the ground was warmed enough, to warm the water, our weather would have 'changed' and we wouldn't need the heating.
This past weekend, the highs-mid 60's/lows-low 40's. The last few days, the highs -low 80's and the low-mid 60's.

The FT's I'm dealing with have already gone up over 15 degrees in just a few days by the air tempt alone. Can you imagine if we had heated the ground....where is the on/off switch...?

[coledexter1920]

I think solar panel heater is the ultimate option because think about using coal-fuel in burning this up and electricity going to spend in heating this amount of water.

[Eleven11]

So UF, do you have any pictures of the 5K water tank?

David, from what I've read.... at about 4 feet below the surface, the ground stays at about 50 or 55F. So, if you did manage to heat up the top layer, it seems like the heat would dissipate in a short time.

I found this guy's work a few months ago and thought it was pretty interesting... brilliant actually.
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/shcs.htm

[seaspritefarms]

I'm assuming with that big a tank you are a serious AP fanatic. These are used in professional aquariums.
http://www.aqualogicinc.com/heaters.htm

PS. they ain't cheap

[urbanfarmer]

Wow, great ideas guys. This will give me a lot to think about and research. Thank you!


So UF, do you have any pictures of the 5K water tank?

Still in the planning process, but I have a few options. I will probably go with the cheapest option available to me.

[davidstcldfl]

I will probably go with the cheapest option available to me.

Cheap no good - good no cheap ~ Old Florida Cracker...... :P :lol:

[urbanfarmer]

:mrgreen:

[MRowsh]

For you who is in Florida, building a 5000 Gallon tank outside not only heating it will be an issue, but also cooling it during summer time, depending on what type of fish you will have in it will be another issue.

Building a fish tank is really not that difficult. In order to control the temperature, building it with wood and insulating it got some advantages. Here is how to build a fish tank using 2 X 6 X 10[attachment=2:1qkm5c0o]FT Build up 1one.jpg[/attachment:1qkm5c0o]

[attachment=1:1qkm5c0o]FT Build up 5.jpg[/attachment:1qkm5c0o]


[attachment=0:1qkm5c0o]FT Build up insulation 3.jpg[/attachment:1qkm5c0o]

For a 5K Gallon fish tank, you may use 2 X 6 X 12 and build it for 6 ft of water depth, so 8 ft hight should do it. By the time you add insulation, and then your EPDM, you will have at least a tank with 11.4 X 11.4 size. If you fil it short of 6 feet. you get more than 5K Gallons..

[foodchain]

My 330 gallon IBC is in the ground. Not fun digging that beast by hand...now just have to mate the pipes/connectors.
Definetly renting the excavator when I do the sea/land cargo container dig in. That's the next "pond".

[davidstcldfl]

Wow foodchain, I don't know what your soil is like...we have mostly sand here, and I wouldn't want to hand dig a hole for an IBC.... :(

Is the sea can for some kind of an underground shelter...?...or are you cutting of the top and making it into a fish tank ? If it's the 2nd one....I wonder if this liner would fit...?
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories ... -Fish-Tank (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/940/Instant-Fish-Tank)

[urbanfarmer]

Wow foodchain, I don't know what your soil is like...we have mostly sand here, and I wouldn't want to hand dig a hole for an IBC.... :(

Is the sea can for some kind of an underground shelter...?...or are you cutting of the top and making it into a fish tank ? If it's the 2nd one....I wonder if this liner would fit...?
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories ... -Fish-Tank (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/940/Instant-Fish-Tank)
I just realized that's just the liner. :(

[foodchain]

I think that's meant for more of a 10 yard dumpster. Heavier steel, but at the end of the day they aren't as big as the sea/land containers. The containers are dangerous to use as in ground shelters as they lack the support to retain the soil. Several have collapsed by people doing this.

It will be a pond, but will be sealed from inside with a torch on lining. Only cutting a portion of the top open, and burrying it about 90% in the ground to aid in equalizing the outward pressure of the water, and the inward pressure of the soil. For the techies...I know it's not "equal" but it's a hell of a lot more "equal" than freestanding on top of the ground, which would force me to spend a fortune in bracing.
Now back to the subject.
The soil is the insulator, and keeping the top on reduces heat loss, but also minimizes evaporation. I built a prototype and it worked well.
Similar designs are in use outside Vegas for shrimp farming...seems I am always just a little bit behind on things. Anyway, I reviewed those, found things I think could have been done better or at least better suited to me. Modified the plan/construction and utilized my understanding of differential pressures from offshore work and commercial diving school.

Geodesic green house will go over the top to help balance thermoclines, and container water volume should work as a heat sinc.

But I am a one man operation, wife is not impressed with my PIA projects. (PIA...Pain in the.....)

Almost time to pick up this years prawn juivies....this year is getting ahead of me.

[foodchain]

Your right, packed clay w/high moisture content is a pain to dig. Add in mature pecan tree roots....and...you get the idea.
3500 lb excavator I just found out is $190/24 hours. Damn it. Always doing things backwards.

[keith_r]

if you're only cutting a portion of the top, how do you plan on harvesting fish?

[urbanfarmer]

Wow, great ideas guys. This will give me a lot to think about and research. Thank you!


So UF, do you have any pictures of the 5K water tank?

Starting to look like a 14' pool from WallyWorld :-)

[foodchain]

Because, a "portion" of a sea land container is about 6'x6' or so. Two ways you can harvest your fish. 1) when you put them in, you put them into rotational net cages allowing you to polyculture multiple species and maintain a symbiotic relationship resulting faster growth and less disease, etc.
or 2) when your ready to harvest pump it out. This is practical if you're running a once a year crop. But costs more due to fuel, water, etc.

For me, option one and two are not really practical just yet. My plan was to set up auto feeder at opening, then when fish are used to the regular feedings, wait till it kicks on and throw the cast net. No sense in making this harder than it has to be. Or spending money you don't have to.

For me, this isn't a commercial operation yet. I don't have to harvest all the fish, just the amount I wish to eat. IF I am worried about size grading or stunting growth due to over population a grading rack will resolve OR a handfull of large mouth bass or blue cats should resolve the problems of smaller fish over populating. This process of using predators has worked well for me in my existing ponds. Fish only eat other to a size that the spines etc motivate them to leave that fish alone and look for a smaller one.
Kinda using feeding instinct to grade my fish for me. This also increases urgancy at feeding and helps to have more of the food consumed regardless if hungry or not, my fish seem to try and eat it just to keep the other one from getting it. This forces faster growth.

[jackalope]

We're planning to experiment with a 'rocket stove' heating system - but that's probably a year or so away.

[bretthogan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IRLVCJ1olA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8H5IOTwYU

[rutan]

If you're using a home heating system you can collect the waste heat, flue gases, and let it pass in a heat ex changer that is submerge in the water to be heated, You can also collect the waste heat from cooking. In winter the temperature underground is higher so you might be able to pump the water back and port from tank to buried pipes. You're not going to need a big pump as the suction and delivery head is of the same level. The only energy required is overcoming the friction between the pipes and water, so using a polish pipe (inside) might help. and then of course a good insulation is a worthy investment.

I haven't tried yet or seen in real practice only a product of imagination.

[15mules]

Most all good ideas start with a little imagination.

[JCO]

There are so many different ways to heat a tank, to begin with, what temperature do you want the water to be? Water pumped directly from a deep well will keep the temp above 50 degrees. Here in Fl., they use and air conditioning unit that pumps water from a deep well through the unit to cool and heat and then the water is pumped back into the ground to be recirculated. :mrgreen: