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foodchain
01-27-2012, 10:36 AM
I suck at Bell Siphons. Maybe you can help me with an idea. Can I put a bell siphon on a 300 gallon IBC tote. Full sized. I only want it to drain a portion of it, not the full tote. Water goes from outdoor pond nonstop, fills IBC, siphon activates when it's so full, and activates flow through growbeds, then drains back to pond.
A few extra steps than needed, but this allows me to branch more grow beds off the ibc than from pond directly.
Any input is appreciated.

foodchain
01-27-2012, 10:37 AM
Doing it this way cuts down on the amount of pumps I need, and also my electrical consumption.

bsfman
01-27-2012, 11:04 AM
I suck at Bell Siphons. Maybe you can help me with an idea. Can I put a bell siphon on a 300 gallon IBC tote. Full sized. I only want it to drain a portion of it, not the full tote.

Mount a standpipe the full depth to the max water level you want. Cover with the bell (also full depth). Determine how deep you want the water to remain when partially drained to your desired level, and place your intake holes on the bell at that level - rather than at the more traditionally done bottom of the bell. If you opt to use a siphon break air tube from the top of the bell, it too should terminate at the desired drain level you want.

keith_r
01-27-2012, 11:09 AM
or go through the side of the 300 gallon tank at the level you want with a 90 ell pointed up
just cut a notch for your media guard
i'm going through the side on my cut down ibc gb's because of the height restrictions i'm working with, but starting to think that constant flood might be the best way to go.. so the side outlet is still ok

foodchain
01-27-2012, 11:16 AM
I like the side outlet, would take less pvc, and therefore less $'s.
I am not understanding how to make it work. Can you photo yours?

David
01-27-2012, 12:21 PM
Yes you can use a bell siphon on it. Your standpipe needs to be cut to your desired height of your water and then drill a hole (that will break the suction) at the level you want the water to drain from your IBC.

foodchain
01-27-2012, 12:41 PM
I guess I don't understand your post David. It seems to me, that if you drill a hole further down than the bell, as the tank fills it would go out this hole. Even if your filling faster than it's going out the hole, your not really mantaining a full change over, but more of constant flow.
Which is more along the lines of what I have now.

Maybe better to ditch the bell setup and go back to toilet flappers. I can adjust those a lot more simply.

keith_r
01-27-2012, 01:07 PM
not a hole in the siphon, but in the siphon cover.. some folks use a piece of airline tubing that exits from the siphone cover cap, then goes back down the siphone cover, but is "cut" at the depth you want the siphon to break

foodchain
01-27-2012, 01:21 PM
If one bell doesn't drain off enough water to keep up with the big pump...do I add another bell and put each bed on it's own bell, or enlarge the one and put a splitter or Y at the end branching off to multiple beds?

How do I determine the maximum range I can move in the IBC? Ideally would like to move a max of about 2 ft of water at one time...but the needs may change...so I figure this would need to be adjustable.

Seems to me, 4-5 small bells would be better than one big one.

David
01-27-2012, 01:38 PM
Sorry food chain. I probably could have explained that better.

There are three major parts to a bell siphon.

1. The standpipe - This is the part the water will drain into
2. The bell - This part covers the standpipe and is the part I am talking about drilling a hole into
3. The housing - This is just used to keep the other parts clear of grow media and other debris

I typically do not drill a hole in the bell, because I like my beds to drain down the majority of the bed. But, if you drill a hole into the bell it will brake suction at that level and will stop draining the bed.

So water will fill your bed up to the level of your standpipe. (No holes in this part) and will drain until the suction is broken on your siphon, (the level of the hole in the bell).

I know I always understand better when I can see a picture. You can see a picture I have laid out of a bell siphon kit here: http://www.diyaquaponicsexpert.com/floo ... aquaponics (http://www.diyaquaponicsexpert.com/flood-and-drain-aquaponics)

Let me know if you have any other questions.

bsfman
01-27-2012, 02:48 PM
If one bell doesn't drain off enough water to keep up with the big pump...do I add another bell and put each bed on it's own bell, or enlarge the one and put a splitter or Y at the end branching off to multiple beds?

How do I determine the maximum range I can move in the IBC? Ideally would like to move a max of about 2 ft of water at one time...but the needs may change...so I figure this would need to be adjustable.

Seems to me, 4-5 small bells would be better than one big one.

You need to balance the size of your siphon or siphons to the input rate. Too small a siphon won't keep up with fill rate, and if it does, it may not break siphon properly at the end. Likewise, too big a siphon for the fill rate may never get siphon going properly. Multiple siphons could be a problem because unless your standpipes are totally EXACT in length, one will start before the others and the remaining ones may never get fully primed to flow. You might be better off doing the "Y" thing with a single siphon. Be sure to allow for adequate space for sufficient downflow below the siphon exit to keep the flow going. How far above ground level is the bottom of your IBC?

I suggest experimenting with a bell siphon in a 5 gallon plastic bucket so you can understand the concept better before trying it out on your IBC. PCV is cheap and easy to experiment with.

foodchain
01-28-2012, 05:48 AM
Tabled the initial design due to the distance from pond to IBC is too hard on the pump I want to use. Not worth the expense to increase pump size...next one up is $200 more. So no go there.

Changing the design.
IF I use the IBC as the FT, and want to pump to gutters and different heighths in an ebb/flow format, currently works as constant flow. But it's the on again/off again I am looking for. Currently has no bell on this one as it's a flow through. Tallest one is 7 ft, and then there's another gutter every 8-10 inches. Currently the water is pumped to top one, and each one is angle slightly to allow the water to run to the end, and fall down to next, then run the opposite direction on the next gutter. Similar to a cascading zig zag.
So in short, my setup with the gutters is fine, but it's a flow through, constant flow. I want it to be ebb/flow. If needed I can raise the volume tank base to about 4-5 off the ground. It's outside so no concerns of overhang. Just ugly if high enough neighbors see it.
Hope all of this makes sense to someone.

David
01-28-2012, 06:02 AM
I'm not sure exactly what your setup looks like but could you add a sump tank near the pond, pump into that (to keep your current pump) and gravity feed to the IBC?

Just a thought.

David
01-28-2012, 06:09 AM
Tabled the initial design due to the distance from pond to IBC is too hard on the pump I want to use. Not worth the expense to increase pump size...next one up is $200 more. So no go there.

Changing the design.
IF I use the IBC as the FT, and want to pump to gutters and different heighths in an ebb/flow format, currently works as constant flow. But it's the on again/off again I am looking for. Currently has no bell on this one as it's a flow through. Tallest one is 7 ft, and then there's another gutter every 8-10 inches. Currently the water is pumped to top one, and each one is angle slightly to allow the water to run to the end, and fall down to next, then run the opposite direction on the next gutter. Similar to a cascading zig zag.
So in short, my setup with the gutters is fine, but it's a flow through, constant flow. I want it to be ebb/flow. If needed I can raise the volume tank base to about 4-5 off the ground. It's outside so no concerns of overhang. Just ugly if high enough neighbors see it.
Hope all of this makes sense to someone.

I think I understand what you are doing here. However to get the ebb and flow you're looking for you need to cycle your pump on and off (This is hard on the pump and will shorten it's life) or you can the bell siphon.

Pumping directly from the fish tank to the gutters gives nowhere for the ebb and flow to happen.
If you're going to use the IBC as a fish tank, you will need to add another holding container or sump tank to collect the water and then release the flow periodically.

foodchain
01-28-2012, 06:13 AM
Yep, that's what I thought. And this then tanks us back the the Hughley design of putting the 1/2 blue barrel on top to fill up. It looks like to make this happen though, the 1/2 barrel has to be higher than the gutters. Which means either one bad pump for the head pressure, or elevating the entire unit into the air. Building into the air is a whole new set of problems, risks, and expenses. Might be cheaper to just lower the gutters and reduce the amount of space between them.

keith_r
01-28-2012, 08:28 AM
what type of gutters are you talking about? buildup in gutters heat might be a problem with flood and drain amd i don't think you'd get the flow you need with "media filled", which would also clog pretty easily.. the flow in gutters is usually a constant low volume flow, and your water should be heavily filterd prior to going through the gutters.. (NFT = nutrient film technique)
have you though of using some kind of upflowing filter piped to headers (on opposite ends of your gutter runs) set up so that both ends drain back to the middle?
pump to filter, filter overflows to headers that feed multiple gutters that drain back to tank
heavy flood and drain cycles in gutters, imho, wouldn't proved a good environment to grow plants

foodchain
01-28-2012, 08:32 AM
Gutters work fine for strawberries. They have shallow roots and love the heat. Gutters don't do so well on other plants. A lot of people tell me that I can't use gutters, but I have 4" plastic white gutters from lowes, and all seems to be well now for some time. I will get pics some time. Just trying to convert this from a constant flow, to an ebb/flow.